"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?

His thesis relies on ignoring the evidence that the Nazis were planning to attack the Soviets in 1941 and had no belief that the Soviets were going to attack them. He establishes this partly by citing those such as Keitel who publicly claimed the war against the Soviets was defensive but then ignores Keitel's own private material stating the attack against the Soviet UNion was planned with conquest in mind and was not pre-emptive. In doing so he cites the view that head Nazis were trying to peddle and goes as far as to say that Keitel was executed at Nuremburg to help cover this up. He can dance around it however he likes but he used Nazi lies as a basis for his thesis which paints the Nazis in a more favourable light. It's hardly the most subtle dogwhistling I've ever seen.

Well, he is a propagandist. He's trying to say "Look how much I hate my former employers, and you should employ me because of that." After all, the basic idea of propaganda is four truths and a lie. But I'm still not convinced. Having read the book myself, and seen just how massive the preparations of the Soviet Union were, I must conclude that the Soviet Union meant to attack if not in 1941, then at least to strike shortly thereafter.

Edit: After all, Suvorov does say that Hitler caught him in the midst of his buildup, so that implies that preparations must have taken at least a month or two more.
 
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Well, he is a propagandist. He's trying to say "Look how much I hate my former employers, and you should employ me because of that." After all, the basic idea of propaganda is four truths and a lie. But I'm still not convinced. Having read the book myself, and seen just how massive the preparations of the Soviet Union were, I must conclude that the Soviet Union meant to attack if not in 1941, then at least to strike shortly thereafter.

Edit: After all, Suvorov does say that Hitler caught him in the midst of his buildup, so that implies that preparations must have taken at least a month or two more.
I was under the impression that the Soviet Union could not carry out an invasion of Axis Europe in 1941. Well, they "could", but they were still rebuilding the officer corps from the Great Purge, and modernizing the equipment and weaponry of the Red Army. I feel if Hitler did not attack in 1941, then Stalin may have in 1942 but more likely in 1943 once the Allies start applying more pressure. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the USSR didn't invade German-occupied Poland until 1944 after the D-Day landings occurred (if they did at all in this scenario) or if German divisions were deployed to Italy and the Balkans to deter Allied invasions.

Stalin could just sever the M-R Pact in 1943, wait a year for the Nazis to resource starve and then invade.
 
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I was under the impression that the Soviet Union could not carry out an invasion of Axis Europe in 1941. Well, they could, but they were still rebuilding the officer corps from the Great Purge, and modernizing the equipment and weaponry of the Red Army. I feel if Hitler did not attack in 1941, then Stalin may have in 1942 but more likely in 1943 once the Allies start applying more pressure. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the USSR didn't invade German-occupied Poland until 1944 after the D-Day landings occurred (if they did at all in this scenario) or if German divisions were deployed to Italy and the Balkans to deter Allied invasions.

Stalin could just sever the M-R Pact in 1943, wait a year for the Nazis to resource starve and then invade.

I have a feeling that was what he was going to do in 41. He wouldn't invade Germany per se. He'd hit the Romanians with the Southern Front and the Danube Flotilla, cut off Hitler's oil and then he'd blast the Nazis into a million pieces once their oil was cut off. Then it wouldn't matter if they had better planes, tanks or ships, because they couldn't fight a war for very long.
 
Well, he is a propagandist. He's trying to say "Look how much I hate my former employers, and you should employ me because of that." After all, the basic idea of propaganda is four truths and a lie.

Making the Nazis look better out of spite is arguably more disgusting than just being a fascist.

But I'm still not convinced. Having read the book myself, and seen just how massive the preparations of the Soviet Union were, I must conclude that the Soviet Union meant to attack if not in 1941, then at least to strike shortly thereafter.

The Red Army had quadrupled in size in the space of less than two years and was severely struggling to accomodate for this with the new divisons often suffering from lack of equipment, let alone supply. Exacerbating this was the transistion between old and new hardware, which left the Red Army with a vast number of tanks and aircraft which were not only obsolete but also beyond maintaining. The Red Army wasn't in a fit state to defend itself in 1941, let alone launch an offensive against the most powerful army in the world. They would have needed another year, maybe two to match the Germans on the frontiers and maybe another year beyond that before considering taking the war to the Germans. Yet Suvorov has the Germans pre-empting them by a matter of weeks.
 
Making the Nazis look better out of spite is arguably more disgusting than just being a fascist.

Not so much out of spite as much as "Look how much I hate my former employers, please don't kill me or ship me back to them." He was trying to make himself look like a reliable propagandist for the west.

The Red Army had quadrupled in size in the space of less than two years and was severely struggling to accomodate for this with the new divisons often suffering from lack of equipment, let alone supply. Exacerbating this was the transistion between old and new hardware, which left the Red Army with a vast number of tanks and aircraft which were not only obsolete but also beyond maintaining. The Red Army wasn't in a fit state to defend itself in 1941, let alone launch an offensive against the most powerful army in the world. They would have needed another year, maybe two to match the Germans on the frontiers and maybe another year beyond that before considering taking the war to the Germans. Yet Suvorov has the Germans pre-empting them by a matter of weeks.

Having taken a look at their tanks, I can't really see many that were obsolete, rather the T-34s and KVs were developments of existing equipment. They had been good, and they would suffice in an offensive war, I can verily assume. Besides, if they were seriously preparing for a defensive war, then why did they disarm the Stalin Line? They built the Molotov Line, but that doesn't mean they would automatically blow up the Stalin Line. As any military strategist will tell you, when you're preparing for a defensive war, then the more lines you have, the better. If you have ten trenches, dig an eleventh. So why then was the Stalin Line abandoned with such rapidity and why was the Molotov Line built so slowly, and why was a third line of fortifications not built on the Dnieper river to protect the industrial zones in the eastern Ukraine?

And why were the bridges not mined? Why were more anti-tank ditches not dug?

Edit: I assume that Suvorov is telling stretchers quite a few places, he's a propagandist after all, and a former member of the GRU, so here's my interpretation. Stalin didn't mean to fight Germany in 1941, rather he intended to go after Romania and cut off Hitler's oil. Once that was taken care of, it wouldn't matter even if Hitler invaded, because his tanks wouldn't be able to get very far, and then Stalin could deliver his hammer blow.
 
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CalBear

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I see no Nazi apologia in Suvorov's works. In fact he said in his book Icebreaker that the work of chasing the nazi criminals must be continued and stepped up. He also makes no bones about the fact that Hitler was a mass murderer.

And yes, I know he is a propagandist. Ex-GRU or not, he is still a spook and must be treated as such. But even a propagandist can be right sometimes.
This is a losing position. So far you haven't crossed the line, but the line is very much in play.

As far as Suvorov's Book... I'll go with David Glantz, among a number of other qualified historians on the subject, and say it has been thoroughly and utterly debunked.
 
This is a losing position. So far you haven't crossed the line, but the line is very much in play.

As far as Suvorov's Book... I'll go with David Glantz, among a number of other qualified historians on the subject, and say it has been thoroughly and utterly debunked.
I'm not familiar with Glantz, what did he have to say?
 
This is a losing position. So far you haven't crossed the line, but the line is very much in play.

As far as Suvorov's Book... I'll go with David Glantz, among a number of other qualified historians on the subject, and say it has been thoroughly and utterly debunked.

While I have you here, I'd like to ask, have you read Icebreaker? What did you think of it?
 
Not so much out of spite as much as "Look how much I hate my former employers, please don't kill me or ship me back to them." He was trying to make himself look like a reliable propagandist for the west.

Opportunism, spite, same difference.

Having taken a look at their tanks, I can't really see many that were obsolete, rather the T-34s and KVs were developments of existing equipment. They had been good, and they would suffice in an offensive war, I can verily assume.

The problem wasn't with the T-34s or the KV-1s but that there weren't enough of them. The Red Army mainstay was still the T-26 which whilst good in its day wasn't a match for the German mediums and this is before getting into the serious maintenance issues with the T-26 and the early BTs. They could take the Panzer I and IIs but they'd often break down before they could get at them.


Besides, if they were seriously preparing for a defensive war, then why did they disarm the Stalin Line? They built the Molotov Line, but that doesn't mean they would automatically blow up the Stalin Line. As any military strategist will tell you, when you're preparing for a defensive war, then the more lines you have, the better. If you have ten trenches, dig an eleventh. So why then was the Stalin Line abandoned with such rapidity and why was the Molotov Line built so slowly, and why was a third line of fortifications not built on the Dnieper river to protect the industrial zones in the eastern Ukraine?

Mostly a lack of resources at the time, the depletion of the Stalin Line was at the expense of the Molotov Line to cover the new Soviet border. Keeping and adding to the Stalin Line and using the territory inbetween as a buffer would have been the better strategy in hindsight but the lack thereof doesn't mean Stalin was secretly plotting to invade Europe.


And why were the bridges not mined? Why were more anti-tank ditches not dug?

They were in places but it was disjointed due to Stalin's fear of 'provocations'. He knew that the Red Army wasn't ready to fend off a German invasion and thus was wary of any activity that might provoke one despite the weight of evidence to the contrary.
 
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I'm not familiar with Glantz, what did he have to say?


From Stumbling Colossus:

David Glantz said:
the validity of Rezun's [Suvorov's] arguments is challenged by 3 fundamental types of sources: newly released… Soviet declassified documents and studies…, German archival materials… and other materials that document the parlous state of the Red Army in 1941 and indicate that any offensive operations contemplated by the Soviets in 1941 would have bordered on the lunatic. Stalin may have been an unscrupulous tyrant, but he was not a lunatic.
 
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CalBear

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I'm not familiar with Glantz, what did he have to say?
He wrote an entire, meticulously researched, book to deconstruct Icebreaker. Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of War. He makes a compelling case regarding the remarkable lack of preparedness in the Red Army at the time. I will say that it is unfortunate that he was not able to access the full Soviet archives in the all too brief period when they were available to Western researchers.

While I have you here, I'd like to ask, have you read Icebreaker? What did you think of it?

To be honest I gave up on Suvorov when he stated that virtually the entire Men's Soviet Olympic Team was made up of Spetnatz operators. Hard to come back from that one.
 
Couldn’t access the full Soviet archives? Like they opened it up for a time then closed it to Western historians? That’s just so weird

He wrote an entire, meticulously researched, book to deconstruct Icebreaker. Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of War. He makes a compelling case regarding the remarkable lack of preparedness in the Red Army at the time. I will say that it is unfortunate that he was not able to access the full Soviet archives in the all too brief period when they were available to Western researchers.



To be honest I gave up on Suvorov when he stated that virtually the entire Men's Soviet Olympic Team was made up of Spetnatz operators. Hard to come back from that one.
 
From Stumbling Colossus:
He wrote an entire, meticulously researched, book to deconstruct Icebreaker. Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of War. He makes a compelling case regarding the remarkable lack of preparedness in the Red Army at the time. I will say that it is unfortunate that he was not able to access the full Soviet archives in the all too brief period when they were available to Western researchers.



To be honest I gave up on Suvorov when he stated that virtually the entire Men's Soviet Olympic Team was made up of Spetnatz operators. Hard to come back from that one.
Thanks!
 
My understanding is that Zhukov did advise launching a spoiling attack but Stalin rejected the plan.
I thought that was more of a “If we attack this is what we need to do and how to do it,” but Zhukov and Stalin both agreed it wouldn’t have worked for a 1941 operation. I could be totally wrong though.


Like a projected battle plan to calculate risk/reward. I’m butchering this explanation.
 
Couldn’t access the full Soviet archives? Like they opened it up for a time then closed it to Western historians? That’s just so weird

The Yeltsin-era was entirely weird. There's bizarre stuff like Gorbachev doing adverts for Pizza Hut which is kinda overshadowed by the complete chaos of an alcoholic trying to manage the dismantling of the Soviet Union and all the tragedy that wrought but it was a weird era all the same.


You're welcome!

My understanding is that Zhukov did advise launching a spoiling attack but Stalin rejected the plan.

I thought that was more of a “If we attack this is what we need to do and how to do it,” but Zhukov and Stalin both agreed it wouldn’t have worked for a 1941 operation. I could be totally wrong though.


Like a projected battle plan to calculate risk/reward. I’m butchering this explanation.

It's hard to say whether Stalin ever actually saw the proposal but I do feel it's likely Zhukov was trying to emphasise the impending German threat rather than seriously propose attacking them first.
 

CalBear

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Couldn’t access the full Soviet archives? Like they opened it up for a time then closed it to Western historians? That’s just so weird
Not really. After the Soviet Union collapsed Yeltsin's government (such as it was) allowed nearly unfettered Western research access to wide swaths of the Soviet records. That started to be throttled back around four years later and once Putin too over in 2000, things went from around half open to each file requiring official review. As Putin's reign has continued the access has continued to shrink.

The why is a matter of some speculation, I have a fairly strong opinion on it, but YMMV.
 
Well, historical matters aside, I await the next chapter with eager anticipation. I'm waiting for the immortal words:

"The circle is now completed. When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master!"
 
Chapter CX
Instead of leaving it to the hypocritical phrase-mongers to deceive the people by phrases and promises concerning the possibility of a democratic peace, socialists must explain to the masses the impossibility of anything resembling a democratic peace, unless there are a series of revolutions and unless a revolutionary struggle is waged in every country against the respective government.


~ Vladimir Lenin, The Question of Peace







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There is a historical debate to be had as to whether the World Disarmament Conference ever had any practical chance of success however few would deny it was an admirable endeavour.




Notions of world peace can be traced back to the Bible and even further, however the concerns of the conference were practical. The three primary concerns were to identify which weapons were hazardous to world peace, how stocks of these weapons could be limited or eliminated altogether and, most importantly, how the powers involved could be ensured of their security without such weapons. It was on this basis the conference went forward and one can credit Lloyd George’s second ministry with a heartfelt attempt in finding an outcome to these issues.



The British delegation was led by Anthony Eden, the Conservative turned Action Foreign Secretary who took to the challenges of the conference with a vigour his new party purported to espouse. Eden had witnessed first hand the horrors of the trenches in the First World War and was determined not to see that nightmare repeat itself. Alongside his junior LIberal counterpart at the foreign office, Herbert Samuel, the case was made for an approach of ‘principle and realism’. This would include the United States joining the League of Nations and with that a more standardised League approach to conflict resolution which would be the arbiter of disputes in a demilitarised world. The recent cases of League arbitration in regards to the German Civil War and the Austro-Italian war were presented as examples of what this model could look like.


Although these incidents were meant to be the precedents for this new international framework they were not objectively seen as good outcomes. Count Ciano, the Italian foreign minister alleged that Italy had been previously mistreated in simply trying to administer their responsibility as a regional power to curb Communist aggression and was wary that such bias would continue on any collective forum which contained “Marxist” voices. In effect he was calling for the German and Soviet delegations to be excluded before any work could be done, effectively making the conference one of determining anti-Socialist collective security.


The French delegation led by Louis Barthou were not unsympathetic to the Italian view. They argued that Germany had been rewarded for aggression and as such any form of collective security which prevented a powerful French military could be exploited by the Germans in the future. The leader of the German delegation, Hermann Muller, attempted to reason with Barthou by pointing out that Germany needed international arbitration to solve its problems and that cooperative attitudes should not be seen as threatening. Eden’s agreement with Muller in this regard seemed to only further aggravate the French delegation who aired suspicions of being colluded against. Ciano was happy to join in with these accusations.


The conference was thus already at an impasse due to these issues, even before concrete news began to arrive of the events in North-Eastern China. What had previously been dismissed as increased bandit activity in the area now transpired to be large numbers of Japanese and Soviet military personnel occupying the Manchurian region to the south and north respectively. Despite the protests of the Chinese delegation and the attempts of Eden and Samuel to use the crisis as an opportunity to apply the new framework they had been proposing, they met a brick wall in the form of the Japanese and Soviet delegations. Both denied any knowledge of what was happening, then denied any evidence to the contrary and eventually blamed each other.


The Japanese delegation now pulled out of the conference, principally in opposition to what they saw as Soviet aggression but also because the crisis had caused their own government to fall. The leader of the delegation, Count Uchida Kosai, had to be informed he was no longer the Foreign Minister whilst still in Geneva.


Attempts were made to encourage the Soviets to desist, or at least to continue the dialogue but the Soviet delegation, led by Alexandra Kollontai, had also had enough. Departing without ceremony she would later give a statement declaring that whilst the international working class wished for nothing more than world peace it was clear that the conference had become about the means of maintaining imperialism.


Whilst Kollontai could be described to be as fanatical as Adolf Hitler, her statement underlined the theme of the developing global conflict within Comintern circles. There could be no peace whilst capitalist states existed, other than that of the grave.


With the exit of the Japanese and Soviet delegations the conference was no longer able to deal with the sort of crisis it was meant to provide an answer to. The Chinese delegation, led by Dr. H. H. Kung, had to sit by with the realisation those responsible for the crisis were now no longer committed to any sort of solution. Whilst Chinese troops were forced to retreat from their own territory in the face of foreign aggression, the incident had made a mockery of the continuing dialogue. The final blow would come with the exit of the American delegation led by Henry Stimson. Like his Japanese counterpart it had become clear Stimson would soon no longer be Secretary of State.


With the defeat of President Hoover in the 1932 Presidential election the conference had lost one of its most enthusiastic supporters. Although the President-elect, Franklin Roosevelt had made it clear he was sympathetic to the conference’s aims he had stressed that his urgent domestic agenda meant that the United States could not consider joining the League of Nations to be a priority. The Conference had wound up before his inauguration in March 1933, by which time Germany also had a new Chancellor.


The failure of the British delegation was denounced back home as a damning of the government’s foreign policy by the Tory opposition. It provoked another attempt at the removal of the government by a vote of no confidence. Similar to the debacle over the Land Value Tax, the Action-Liberal government would survive but their vision of a better world had indeed fallen by the wayside.


By 1936 the government would be propelled into electoral success amidst the King’s Election where, having established their link to the people ,they undertook rearmament with an energy that called for a younger man. Lloyd George would retire in favour of such a fellow before the Second World War had broken out.


Perhaps by the beginning of 1933 it was clear already that the failure of the conference marked the failure of the liberal internationalism and pacifism that had arisen out of the horrors of the First World War. In its place lay the road ahead for the final collision of the classes.




It would not be long before Lenin’s Global Civil War triumphed over Lloyd George’s dreams of international harmony.





~ Prof. James Brown, British Papers on the Second World War




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The painting is Impossible Love by Marc Brunet
 
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