On a Tall White Ship
- Thread starter Othniel
- Start date
Othniel said:So would I, however I must weigh not only the most plausible option, but the most flavourable option, and then seek a balance between the two. While this timeline will have its boring spots it also needs events that people will get people thinking.
True. Sometimes you have to bend plausibility a bit and go for the excitement. In which case I encourage you to have Sicily go after Egypt. Forget poor Tunis go for the riches of the Nile, unexpected and could be quite the adventure.
Othniel said:
You can have characters in a TL. You have all these historical figures--the butterflies could generate some new ones. The Lollard spymaster could be prominent in the court of the Norman rulers of Sicily and foil some conspiracy.
Shadow Knight said:True. Sometimes you have to bend plausibility a bit and go for the excitement. In which case I encourage you to have Sicily go after Egypt. Forget poor Tunis go for the riches of the Nile, unexpected and could be quite the adventure.
If you want the Norman Med empre to become overextended and collapse, this is a good way to go.
However, if you want the Norman Med empire to stick around for awhile, have them go for Tunis instead. Once they add Tunisia to their empire and consolidate their gains, they could be strong enough to go after Egypt. Then you can have the adventure and (especially if the Almohades are still a threat), the unexpected, and the Norman empire can remain intact.
Tunisia is not entirely without its advantages. It's easily defensible and, unlike Egypt, isn't super-populated. It'd make a nice prize.
Plus, if there's a need for European settlement, the Normans could open it up to Lollards and Waldensians (as a reward for the Lollard spymaster, perchance?).
Of course, perhaps the Normans could launch a feint at Tunisia/Cyrenaica and then attack Egypt while the Egyptians and their allies have moved their armies west. However, they could use Tunisia as a stronghold and that could make finally getting rid of them tricky.
Othniel said:
I could help you come up with some possibilities for philosophy in Islamic Iberia.
Firstly, I think Sufism might find fertile ground there in TTL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism
The Lollard spymaster incident could just be an entry in a TL.
Example: "Lord Giovanni Aburridi, Waldensian spymaster to Duke Bohemond of Sicily, foils the conspiracy of Giullermo Santini to assassinate the Duke. In gratitude, Duke Bohemond opens up the newly-captured territory of Tunis for settlement by Waldensians and like-minded groups."
Of course, you'll have to develop that concept further and plan out all the effects down the line, which could take a lot of mental effort.
Considering at this early date there were still some native Christians left in North Africa, the introduction of Lollards and Waldensians might be interesting. Especially as many of these leftover Christians would be Donatists, who would not have an especially high opinion of the Catholic Church (although for different reasons than the Waldensians).
Some sort of hybrid denomination might emerge.
The center of this timeline seems to gravtating more towards French History. I got an idea for the Cathars and what I want to happen in France for the era. By the end of the month I hope to have written about French History to the end of Albigensians. I can say this, that I believe that it will give this timeline the right amount of OTL to shape certain undisable elements of history, but will create other ATL moments that will shape the future in very different ways. Somewhere in between the impact of this differed Third Crusade, and the almost unchanged happenings in Holland, Scotland and the East.
Both Thande and Merry, thank you for carry enough about this timeline to ask for its resurrection. It has brought me a limited inspiration on which to build on.
Both Thande and Merry, thank you for carry enough about this timeline to ask for its resurrection. It has brought me a limited inspiration on which to build on.
Othniel said:
I've got 2 on my bookshelf at the mo - not sure if they'd be at a public library as are fairly recent (last 3 years or so):
The Transformation of Europe: 1300-1600
This deals with economic, political, cultural changes etc
Medieval Europe - Kay (something or other)
particularly strong on religion and culture of the Early Middle Ages
Will post the exact names & publishers on Monday as currently at work
Ok
As promised books are:
Mediaeval Civilisation - by Kay Slocum, published by Lawrence King, ISBN 1-85669-444-5
The Transformation of Europe: 1300-1600 - by David Nicholas, published by Arnold, ISBN 0-340-66208-5
As promised books are:
Mediaeval Civilisation - by Kay Slocum, published by Lawrence King, ISBN 1-85669-444-5
The Transformation of Europe: 1300-1600 - by David Nicholas, published by Arnold, ISBN 0-340-66208-5
I've put up a challange related to this timeline. Readers here should take a look at it;
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36295
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36295
The Inheritance of Theobold
Part 1
Maiden France
Theobold the Great, Count of Champagne, Blois, and Chartes, son of Stephen of Blois, and elder brother of the famous Stephen of England, whom by the very nature of the POD got himself excluded from the TL. Theobold himself has already been mentioned as having been occupied by Louis VII of France. Even with the occupation Theobold would give his daughter, Adèle of Champagne, to Louis VII as a wife. She would go on to bear Louis heir, Phillip II.
Visions of White Wine.
His eldest son, Henry, would take the Duchy of Champagne upon the death of Theobold II. Notably Champagne was the lesser devolped and poorest of his father’s territories, but Henry, called the Liberial, would transform it into one of the most powerful principallities in France, lording over some 2000 vassals, bringing the Champagne Fairs and a powerful trading cotingency in the low lands.Henry would marry Louis VII’s daughter by Eleanor of Aquatine, Marie. (Whom at this point wouldn’t have been his brother-and-law’s daughter, but the man whom he was a vassal to.)She would be pregnant before he left for the Holy Lands to particapate in the Thrid Crusade. (leaving in 1166 and arriving in 1169) There Henry would die leaving his wife as regent of Champagne. Henry the Second would be born in Febuary of 1167, leaving the widow to train him till adulthood.(1187)
This bit is leading up to something. I still have a few bits to go.Diamond said:I wish your updates were longer.
But still, every little bit helps, and this is shaping up to be a really good TL.
EDIT-
There are also reasons the updates are short. I won't update at all if I waited to fill in all the pieces instead of immeaidately writing them when they came to me.
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Diamond
Banned
I may have mentioned this to you already, but one that I've found useful is:Othniel said:
The Oxford History of the Crusades, edited by Jonathan Riley-Smith, published by (surprise!) Oxford University Press, 1999. It contains fifteen essays ranging from the mindset of Crusaders to popular songs sung by Crusaders, to architecture, the Military Orders, etc., etc. None of the essays are vastly in depth, but they are great overviews, and the 'further reading' list is the most comprehensive I've seen.