On a Tall White Ship

Hmmm, alls I have do now is reasearch the movements of lesser players in the British Isles. Does anyone have links or possible books that I should get on this era, and in particular western Europe
 

Diamond

Banned
You know, I really like this alternate history. The problem I have is that, like G.Bone's TL's, the way in which you're constructing it, as vignettes and brief snapshots, makes it a bit hard to follow (and combined with the fact that I don't know as much about the period as I should. :D ).

But it IS good, though. It really illustrates well just how much things can butterfly off in new directions thanks to different marriages and offspring. I'm really liking the way things are looking in England. Trial by combat lives on! Yes! :D
 
Diamond said:
You know, I really like this alternate history. The problem I have is that, like G.Bone's TLs, the way in which you're constructing it, as vignettes and brief snapshots, makes it a bit hard to follow (and combined with the fact that I don't know as much about the period as I should. :D ).
The problem is that it has to come out this way. If I don't write about it as soon as I detrimined that piece of information I'll lose it, or decide on something else. I know it makes for poor entertainment and presentation, but I don't want to sit down and rewrite entire pieces every time I work on it just because I'm displeased with how I worded something. Thus it comes out in paragraphs instead of chapters.

As for the time period. all of what I know of it is what I research for the timeline.(And I tend to be influenced in how I write by what I read, which is mostly in encylopedia entry form... thus I come out sounding like an enclyopedia...:( )
But it IS good, though. It really illustrates well just how much things can butterfly off in new directions thanks to different marriages and offspring. I'm really liking the way things are looking in England. Trial by combat lives on! Yes! :D
With royal marriages being mostly arranged I think that gives me a good deal of freedom. Its either for poltical gain, or reproduction, with age ranges are workable. Sense marriage is poltics, especially in those days,
which ends up being the most important thing until more social asecpts come into light. (Coem Renissance we'll see both art and technology, some of it will come to light, and others will come and b forgotten, only to be rediscovered.) I'll go to where the divergences are...:D
It just stays until some other idea is latch on to by some king.;) Alls I know is that it might not be trial by jury...
 
Othniel said:
... thus I come out sounding like an enclyopedia.

No worries the TL is going good. I do agree with Diamond it would be nice to have a little more breadth to it, but you do what you can.

As for encyclopedia like I wonder if my TL comes off like that too...either way do what works best for you.
 
Shadow Knight said:
No worries the TL is going good. I do agree with Diamond it would be nice to have a little more breadth to it, but you do what you can.
More Width even!
As for encyclopedia like I wonder if my TL comes off like that too...either way do what works best for you.
Well, maybe it would be better if it was written in Braille?:p
 
Faeelin said:
Othniel: Have you ever seen the Lion in Winter? It's a film, set in this era.
No, but if it is either entertaining or would help with the timeline I would be willing to look for it in the libray.
 
Othniel said:
No, but if it is either entertaining or would help with the timeline I would be willing to look for it in the libray.

It is, and it will...

Be certain to see the original version, starring Peter O'Toole, Katherine Hepburn, Timothy Dalton, and Anthony Hopkins.

I've yet to see the version starring Patrick Stewart, but remakes are almost always not as good as the originals...
 
Ideas don't seem to becoming... so I'm going to open up a dialog. What do you guys think of the events thus far? Not just the writting, but what is your concept of the image I'm painting? What are your visions for its future? If the discovery of the Americas are delayed, what do you think will happen in their histories? What changes do you think Islam and Christianity will go through when compared to OTL?
 
Othniel said:
Ideas don't seem to becoming... so I'm going to open up a dialog. What do you guys think of the events thus far? Not just the writting, but what is your concept of the image I'm painting? What are your visions for its future? If the discovery of the Americas are delayed, what do you think will happen in their histories? What changes do you think Islam and Christianity will go through when compared to OTL?

Well, i know as little as you about the time period - correction, as little as you did befor eyou started research :) However, it's a fun read so that i can learn something.

I would note that re: Christianity, there were always some who were against the mainstream Catholic Church, who held to salvation by grace through faith, believers' baptism (generally), etc.. You're in the time period where the Lollards probably started, though their rise wouldn't come into main prominence till John Wycliffe translated the Bible. (Into Latin, English came later.)

Given a lack of trial by jury, whatever breakoff from Christianity came in TTL could come earlier, as people seek a more egalitarian principle - something favoring the "little guy who just can't fight or hire people to fight for him." Also, depends on how happy the people are. In OTL it was peasant farmers Wycliffe preached to who made up a large portion of the Lollards.

There was also a group on the continent called the Waldensians, very possible a similar group could arise.

If you're looking for something interesting, maybe an earlier discovery of America, but in very small numbers, not really anything more than small groups of persecuted believers setting off on their own. Except, these will be even more isolated than the people at Plymouth. Thankfully we're in the Maunder Minimum where they won't face those harsh winters.
 
Sorry, make that English, not Latin, that Wycliffe translated it into - it was just the latin Bible he translated, not the original Greek/Hebrew.

Why couldn't I find the edit button? Was it too long before I realized my error?

Anyway, again, great timeline.
 
Must disagree on the part about how there were "always" people who held essentially Baptist beliefs, but that's not particularly relevant to the discussion of TTL. You are correct in pointing out that the Lollards and Waldensians should be popping up around now. Your point on "trial by combat" is quite interesting.

Perhaps replacing trial by combat with trial by jury is a "social justice" cause the Lollards push for. Or, if they can't persuade or pressure the monarch into making this change, they come up with a sort of common fund for hiring champions for poor defendants.

Think "public defenders" with real swords. :)

Also, to determine whether or not a poor defendant is worthy of having one of their defenders (ie whether he or she is really innocent), they could adopt some kind of investigative system. That in turn could produce Private Investigators (PIs) hundreds of years early.

And the idea of a Lollard/Waldensian discovery of the New World is very interesting. In OTL, the Waldensians were able to hold out in the mountains of northern Italy against the Inquisition--perhaps the butterflies produce an especially cunning Catholic general who can force them out of their mountain fortresses and on the run.

Also, since the Normans seem to be in the process of building a Mediterranean empire, Sicily or North Africa could be interesting places for the Lollards or Waldensians to go. The Normans were fairly tolerant religiously in Sicily (they had all-Muslim military units), even if they did tax everything.

On another matter..

Oth, who's the Henry I who cuts off wool shipments to Flanders and thus causes a civil war? I saw that early in the TL and didn't quite get it.
 
Here's a Wiki article on the Almohads, which might come in handy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohads

Since the article doesn't describe any distinctive Almohad military tactics, here's an article on the Almoravids, the previous fundamentalist Berber dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravids#Ascendence_of_Militarism

What sort of order of battle would the Normans use in North Africa? If their armies are cavalry-centric, they could run into some trouble against the phalanx.

Perhaps the Normans will need to recruit more and more infantry, which could open up a wider range of opportunities for the lower classes.
 
On the matter of the Lollard PIs idea, perhaps the Lollards become well-known for being investigative or something.

The Jews, though disliked for not being Christians, were tolerated (when they were tolerated, that is) due to their financial acumen and cultural emphasis on education.

Perhaps the "heretic" Lollards will be tolerated b/c they make good spies and, later, journalists (or in the present, "chroniclers" or even troubadors).

A Lollard spymaster might be a good character--after all, since they're a persecuted minority often in hiding, they'd make good conspirators.
 
The Normans had loads of infantry many of them Muslim Sicilian Arabs. See references to Roger II of Sicily's army when he supposedly went north to help the Pope against Henry V.
 
Shadow Knight said:
The Normans had loads of infantry many of them Muslim Sicilian Arabs. See references to Roger II of Sicily's army when he supposedly went north to help the Pope against Henry V.

Ah. Then perhaps the phalanxes of the Almoravids/Almohads won't be too troublesome.

Which power would be more militarily formidable? The Almohades or the Normans?
 
MerryPrankster said:
Ah. Then perhaps the phalanxes of the Almoravids/Almohads won't be too troublesome.

Which power would be more militarily formidable? The Almohades or the Normans?

I'd say the Almohades would have an edge as it is their home turf and are used to the conditions there. Light desert cavalry can be a problem in the desert. However we do know that the Roger II of Sicily did at one time occupy various sections of coastal North Africa from cape Bona to roughly around Tripoli (which is why I used those areas for my TL as it seemed plausible). Once you get beyond the coast though unless you are willing to commit lots of troops the natives have the edge.
 
MerryPrankster said:
On the matter of the Lollard PIs idea, perhaps the Lollards become well-known for being investigative or something.
I can think of a few people that will protect them. For example the Hautivilles in Italy, in particular Sicily, but I think having them snake their way into a few German Princes' courts would also be effective. Or I could try and have the catholic church absorb some of their doctrines, and effectively stand as a sect within the catholic church, having it become a bigger issue in the place of monopsychism
The Jews, though disliked for not being Christians, were tolerated (when they were tolerated, that is) due to their financial acumen and cultural emphasis on education.

Perhaps the "heretic" Lollards will be tolerated b/c they make good spies and, later, journalists (or in the present, "chroniclers" or even troubadors).

A Lollard spymaster might be a good character--after all, since they're a persecuted minority often in hiding, they'd make good conspirators.
Prehaps. It would be intresting to see such a charter devolp, but for now this is just a timeline. However I may place some short stories off of what happened here when I am finshed with it.
 
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