Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I may be wrong, but wasn't the Franco-British Union proposed around this point in time IOTL? Would a stronger Free France be closer to this or no?
I don't know much on this topic, but it seems like a Union between two aging empires (one of which is about to have its homeland absolutely gutted) would be a good defense against two other gaining empires: Soviets and Nazis. Not to mention the American Empire (America might not have proclaimed its Imperium IOTL but we all know it essentially was/is) to the West, but the Americans are probably the last thought for any French right now.
I don't know much on this topic, but it seems like a Union between two aging empires (one of which is about to have its homeland absolutely gutted) would be a good defense against two other gaining empires: Soviets and Nazis. Not to mention the American Empire (America might not have proclaimed its Imperium IOTL but we all know it essentially was/is) to the West, but the Americans are probably the last thought for any French right now.
If anything I would have thought a stronger free France would be even more opposed to such a union than iotl
Part 61 A not so splendid little war
Bessarabia, July 1st, 1940
The Soviet ultimatum on Romania had expired the previous day. Germany, Italy and Britain had all refused any help to Romania but the 76 year old Bratianu had no intention to give up Moldavia, or any other part of the country without a fight. Romania had mobilized 1.2 million men. Two thirds of them in 20 infantry divisions had been deployed in Moldavia, the rest covering the Hungarian and Bulgarian borders. The Soviet southern front under Georgy Zhukov had actually fewer men, about 600,000 in 29 divisions but also had nearly 3,000 tanks and a clear superiority in artillery. It remained to be seen if it was enough.
Narvik, July 5th, 1940
British, Polish and Free French, warships evacuated allied forces from Narvik. Churchill had hoped that Narvik could had held out, particularly since supply problem had meant that the Germans could hardly keep in supply the 4 divisions that nominally had gone north and only a fraction was actually in action. But the Germans could still keep replacing casualties, had near complete air superiority that had become even more pronounced following the collapse of France and their troops on the ground held a clear quality advantage partticularly against the Norwegian reservists that pre war had received very limited training. The evacuation at least had gone most well, the Kriegsmarine after the casualties it had received earlier in the campaign had not ventured out to challenge the evacuations. About 22,700 men had made it out of Narvik in the final evacuations, including over 8,000 Norwegians and nearly 9,000 French and Poles. It hadn't been cheap for the allies who had suffered 15,589 casualties including 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 9 destroyers and 3 submarines. German casualties had been slightly lighter at 12,682 men, with 1 battleship, 3 cruisers, 10 destroyers, 6 submarines, 2 torpedo boats and over two dozen transports. But the Germans could at least claim victory even if it had been a Pyrrhic one for their navy...
Chisinau, Moldavia, July 11th, 1940
Soviet troops entered the city. Romanian troops were fighting well, but Zhukov appeared to be doing decidedly better than his fellow generals in Finland...
English channel, July 17th, 1940
Luftwaffe aircraft start attacking British ships and RAF patrols over the English channel. The "kanalkampf" the prelude to the all out Luftwaffe assault on Britain. The previous day Hitler had issued a directive calling for preparations to invade Britain. How practical such a plan was, was a different matter and the British government was understandably very worried, although the decisions of Castex and Lacroix to fight on had brought a much needed boost in British and allied morale.
Prut river, Romania, July 23rd, 1940
The Romanian army was forced behind the Prut. Behind the cover of the river its resistance would stiffen, while Germany start exerting diplomatic pressure for an armistice, Moldavia had been handed over to the Soviets back in the previous August but the rest of Romania was a different matter...
Beirut, July 24th, 1940
Lorraine, followed her escorts out of the port. Behind her the transports carrying the 24e régiment mixte colonial and the 17e Régiment de Tirailleurs Sénégalais followed. By the end of the day they would be passing Suez. Their next stop would be Djibuti, a visit would further strengthen Legentilhomme's position there, only the timely dispatch a two cruisers carrying Algerian Tirailleurs had stopped a Vichy takeover of the colony after Legentilhomme had refused entry to the Italian armistice commission and the Italians had reacted by having Weygand appoint a higher ranking officer in command of French Somaliland. Then they'd head further south.
Nafpaktos, Western Greece, July 31st, 1940
Two Greek destroyers and two submarines lay in the harbour when a handful of Italian bombers showed up dropping bombs of them. The destroyers antiaircraft guns quickly opened up and the Italian aircraft left, no damage inflicted on either side. Count Ciano would refuse the complaints by the Greek ambassador, claiming that surely it was British aircraft that had attacked the Greeks. It wasn't the first attack. It wouldn't be the last.
Rome, August 6th, 1940
Mussolini railed against the Yugoslavs. Something had to be done about them, before the war was over. Orders to be ready to invade Yugoslavia if necessary before the end of September were given.
Bucharest, August 6th, 1940
The Romanian army had managed to fight the Soviet southern front to a standstill on the Prut but it was understood that time was not running in the Romanian favour. German intervention had brought an armistice. The Romanians had failed to save Moldavia and had suffered 81,487 casualties in 37 days of fighting, Zhukov's troops had lost 52,869 men and 264 tanks. For what it was worth they could at least say they had not sold out their Moldavian brethren. But any positive effect from that was far in the future. For now Bratianu had been forced off the government with a government of Germanophiles under Ion Gigurtu and including Codreanu's Iron Guard had taken over as part of the effort to secure German support. The Germans after helping secure an armistice had nevertheless begun pressuring the Romanians to cede territory to both Hungary and Bulgaria.
Diego Suarez, August 7th, 1940
Leon Cayla had replaced Marcel de Coppet as governor general of Madagascar a week earlier as Coppet had wanted to side with Free France. Cayla had made noises of fighting on as governor of Dakar, which had led to his replacement by general Boisson but was deemed sufficiently loyal to Petain to take over Madagascar. But being under the guns of the Lorraine, with 7,000 regulars ready to storm Diego Suarez had been mighty persuasive in getting Cayla to remember his resistance proclivities or at the very least not resist De Coppet returning to office. Madagascar joined Free France.
Rome, August 11th, 1940
Mussolini railed against the Greeks. Something had to be done about them, before the war was over and avenge the slight given Italy over Corfu in 1923. Orders to be ready to invade Greece if necessary were given. Mussolini also wanted to know about a Daut Hoxha, an Albanian cattle thief murdered by a rival gang that Ciano was presenting to him as an Albanian patriot supposedly murdered by the Greeks.
Southern England, August 13th, 1940
Hundreds of Luftwaffe aircraft blackened the sky as Spitfires and Hurricanes rose up to take them on. The battle of Britain was beginning in earnest. The Luftwaffe had massed 3,358 aircraft, 2,550 of them operational out of a total a 3,951 against 2,082 RAF aircraft. It remained to be seen if they would suffice to enable the first successful invasion of the British islands since the time of the Glorious Revolution. [1]
Tinos, August 15th, 1940
The training ship Athena, formerly Helli had been sent to participate in the festivities for the Dormition of the Virgin, despite increasing fears of Italian action. The Italian submarine Delfino, given by the Dodecanese governor De Vecchi orders to sink any ship in found in the Cyclades, fired three torpedoes on it. One was enough to sink Athena, with a second one sinking the passenger ship Hesperos. Delfino would not survive as it was attacked shortly afterwards by the Greek destroyers Aspis and Formion. De Vecchi had interpreted orders by Mussolini to attack neutral shipping at will as Mussolini planning an immediate start of hostilities against Greece. It remained to be seen if he was right and if he was not whether he had perhaps landed Italy into war with Greece no matter Mussolini's intentions. Dragoumis had given immediate orders to keep secret the nationality of the submarine, but it was one of these secrets everyone knew or at the very least highly suspected. Greece caught its collective breath...
[1] Observant people might note that the RAF is slightly stronger 2,082 aircraft instead of 1963 as it suffered lower casualties over France, while the Luftwaffe's overall strength is slightly lower at 3,951 aircraft compared to 4,074.
The Soviet ultimatum on Romania had expired the previous day. Germany, Italy and Britain had all refused any help to Romania but the 76 year old Bratianu had no intention to give up Moldavia, or any other part of the country without a fight. Romania had mobilized 1.2 million men. Two thirds of them in 20 infantry divisions had been deployed in Moldavia, the rest covering the Hungarian and Bulgarian borders. The Soviet southern front under Georgy Zhukov had actually fewer men, about 600,000 in 29 divisions but also had nearly 3,000 tanks and a clear superiority in artillery. It remained to be seen if it was enough.
Narvik, July 5th, 1940
British, Polish and Free French, warships evacuated allied forces from Narvik. Churchill had hoped that Narvik could had held out, particularly since supply problem had meant that the Germans could hardly keep in supply the 4 divisions that nominally had gone north and only a fraction was actually in action. But the Germans could still keep replacing casualties, had near complete air superiority that had become even more pronounced following the collapse of France and their troops on the ground held a clear quality advantage partticularly against the Norwegian reservists that pre war had received very limited training. The evacuation at least had gone most well, the Kriegsmarine after the casualties it had received earlier in the campaign had not ventured out to challenge the evacuations. About 22,700 men had made it out of Narvik in the final evacuations, including over 8,000 Norwegians and nearly 9,000 French and Poles. It hadn't been cheap for the allies who had suffered 15,589 casualties including 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 9 destroyers and 3 submarines. German casualties had been slightly lighter at 12,682 men, with 1 battleship, 3 cruisers, 10 destroyers, 6 submarines, 2 torpedo boats and over two dozen transports. But the Germans could at least claim victory even if it had been a Pyrrhic one for their navy...
Chisinau, Moldavia, July 11th, 1940
Soviet troops entered the city. Romanian troops were fighting well, but Zhukov appeared to be doing decidedly better than his fellow generals in Finland...
English channel, July 17th, 1940
Luftwaffe aircraft start attacking British ships and RAF patrols over the English channel. The "kanalkampf" the prelude to the all out Luftwaffe assault on Britain. The previous day Hitler had issued a directive calling for preparations to invade Britain. How practical such a plan was, was a different matter and the British government was understandably very worried, although the decisions of Castex and Lacroix to fight on had brought a much needed boost in British and allied morale.
Prut river, Romania, July 23rd, 1940
The Romanian army was forced behind the Prut. Behind the cover of the river its resistance would stiffen, while Germany start exerting diplomatic pressure for an armistice, Moldavia had been handed over to the Soviets back in the previous August but the rest of Romania was a different matter...
Beirut, July 24th, 1940
Lorraine, followed her escorts out of the port. Behind her the transports carrying the 24e régiment mixte colonial and the 17e Régiment de Tirailleurs Sénégalais followed. By the end of the day they would be passing Suez. Their next stop would be Djibuti, a visit would further strengthen Legentilhomme's position there, only the timely dispatch a two cruisers carrying Algerian Tirailleurs had stopped a Vichy takeover of the colony after Legentilhomme had refused entry to the Italian armistice commission and the Italians had reacted by having Weygand appoint a higher ranking officer in command of French Somaliland. Then they'd head further south.
Nafpaktos, Western Greece, July 31st, 1940
Two Greek destroyers and two submarines lay in the harbour when a handful of Italian bombers showed up dropping bombs of them. The destroyers antiaircraft guns quickly opened up and the Italian aircraft left, no damage inflicted on either side. Count Ciano would refuse the complaints by the Greek ambassador, claiming that surely it was British aircraft that had attacked the Greeks. It wasn't the first attack. It wouldn't be the last.
Rome, August 6th, 1940
Mussolini railed against the Yugoslavs. Something had to be done about them, before the war was over. Orders to be ready to invade Yugoslavia if necessary before the end of September were given.
Bucharest, August 6th, 1940
The Romanian army had managed to fight the Soviet southern front to a standstill on the Prut but it was understood that time was not running in the Romanian favour. German intervention had brought an armistice. The Romanians had failed to save Moldavia and had suffered 81,487 casualties in 37 days of fighting, Zhukov's troops had lost 52,869 men and 264 tanks. For what it was worth they could at least say they had not sold out their Moldavian brethren. But any positive effect from that was far in the future. For now Bratianu had been forced off the government with a government of Germanophiles under Ion Gigurtu and including Codreanu's Iron Guard had taken over as part of the effort to secure German support. The Germans after helping secure an armistice had nevertheless begun pressuring the Romanians to cede territory to both Hungary and Bulgaria.
Diego Suarez, August 7th, 1940
Leon Cayla had replaced Marcel de Coppet as governor general of Madagascar a week earlier as Coppet had wanted to side with Free France. Cayla had made noises of fighting on as governor of Dakar, which had led to his replacement by general Boisson but was deemed sufficiently loyal to Petain to take over Madagascar. But being under the guns of the Lorraine, with 7,000 regulars ready to storm Diego Suarez had been mighty persuasive in getting Cayla to remember his resistance proclivities or at the very least not resist De Coppet returning to office. Madagascar joined Free France.
Rome, August 11th, 1940
Mussolini railed against the Greeks. Something had to be done about them, before the war was over and avenge the slight given Italy over Corfu in 1923. Orders to be ready to invade Greece if necessary were given. Mussolini also wanted to know about a Daut Hoxha, an Albanian cattle thief murdered by a rival gang that Ciano was presenting to him as an Albanian patriot supposedly murdered by the Greeks.
Southern England, August 13th, 1940
Hundreds of Luftwaffe aircraft blackened the sky as Spitfires and Hurricanes rose up to take them on. The battle of Britain was beginning in earnest. The Luftwaffe had massed 3,358 aircraft, 2,550 of them operational out of a total a 3,951 against 2,082 RAF aircraft. It remained to be seen if they would suffice to enable the first successful invasion of the British islands since the time of the Glorious Revolution. [1]
Tinos, August 15th, 1940
The training ship Athena, formerly Helli had been sent to participate in the festivities for the Dormition of the Virgin, despite increasing fears of Italian action. The Italian submarine Delfino, given by the Dodecanese governor De Vecchi orders to sink any ship in found in the Cyclades, fired three torpedoes on it. One was enough to sink Athena, with a second one sinking the passenger ship Hesperos. Delfino would not survive as it was attacked shortly afterwards by the Greek destroyers Aspis and Formion. De Vecchi had interpreted orders by Mussolini to attack neutral shipping at will as Mussolini planning an immediate start of hostilities against Greece. It remained to be seen if he was right and if he was not whether he had perhaps landed Italy into war with Greece no matter Mussolini's intentions. Dragoumis had given immediate orders to keep secret the nationality of the submarine, but it was one of these secrets everyone knew or at the very least highly suspected. Greece caught its collective breath...
[1] Observant people might note that the RAF is slightly stronger 2,082 aircraft instead of 1963 as it suffered lower casualties over France, while the Luftwaffe's overall strength is slightly lower at 3,951 aircraft compared to 4,074.
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So it begins... I wonder if the Italians invade in late August like in the the guns of lausanne or closer to otl time of Invasion.. also i wonder was will turkey do..
God I love compound interest.
Are there any POWs or the whole crew went down?
If foreign press in Athens caught up to the story - an attack that resulted in the sinking of the attacking submarine, then Italy would have to take an official position. Tensions are about to rise more rapidly compared to OTL.
One less submarines scratched out of the Axis OOB.
This is very good news! The resources for Ironclad are saved. Moreover, the human and natural resources of Madagascar can be utilized by Free France.
In OTL 1942 there was a garrison of 8,000 of which 2,000 were Frenchmen. I guess most of the French were repatriated following Operation Ironclad. In OTL de Gaulle planned to form a malagasy brigade to fight the Japanese. Now without Ironclad, I think the brigade can become an infantry division.
In the era with a non-surfaced submarine? Nope. Sunk with all hands.
It's not as if anyone with eyes to see has much doubt whose submarine it was. Who'd go attack a Greek ship in peacetime out of the blue? The British, the French or the Yugoslavs that are on friendly terms with Greece? The Spanish who are neutral? The only obvious candidates are the Italians... and the Turks.
TTL Free France has a fleet and an army of its own early on. It makes only sense to use it to get as much of the French empire on side as it can... and to do it fast and early before Vichy can replace governors and commanders willing to resist with its own loyalists.
Appendix Greek census data summer 1940
Summer 1940 two decades have passed since Sevres, expedient time for some statistics...
Regional population of Greece, 1920 to 1940
Evolution of Greek GDP and population 1910-1940
Minorities in Greece
Composition of Muslim population
Comparative growth of Greek industrial output TTL and OTL
Regional population of Greece, 1920 to 1940
| Region | 1920 (exchanged populations not counted) | 1922 (post population exchanges) | TTL 1940 census | OTL 1920 census | OTL 1940 census |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Central Greece | 555,165 | 555,165 | 645,726 | 555,165 | 742,760 |
| Peloponnese | 945,204 | 945,204 | 1,099,390 | 945,204 | 1,163,602 |
| Ionians | 224,189 | 224,189 | 216,376 | 224,189 | 219,562 |
| Thessaly | 434,920 | 434,920 | 531,094 | 438,408 | 573,417 |
| Macedonia | 570,212 | 778,641 | 1,127,210 | 916,042 | 1,474,898 |
| Epirus | 474,234 | 474,234 | 536,144 | 266,835 | 362,332 |
| Crete | 346,584 | 346,584 | 424,902 | 346,584 | 438,239 |
| Aegean | 386,835 | 386,835 | 373,723 | 395,442 | 433,037 |
| Thrace | 463,189 | 634,740 | 918,890 | 704,208 | 359,923 |
| Ionia | 767,540 | 1032,577 | 1,494,824 | No census | 0 |
| Attica | 116,866 | 116,866 | 168,749 | 116,866 | 168,749 |
| Athens | 453,042 | 453,042 | 700,095 | 453,042 | 1,124,109 |
| Smyrna | 310,971 | 371,798 | 566,819 | No census | 0 |
| Thessaloniki | 128,501 | 161,164 | 200,426 | 174,390 | 284,232 |
| Total | 6,177,452 | 6,915,959 | 9,004,369 | 5,536,375 | 7,344,860 |
Evolution of Greek GDP and population 1910-1940
| Year | GDP millions $ current prices | Population | Per capita GDP $ current prices |
|---|---|---|---|
1910 | 127,83 | 2.684.090 | 47,62 |
1911 | 163,93 | 2.701.698 | 60,68 |
1912 | 159,35 | 2.719.422 | 58,60 |
1913 | 165,71 | 4.819.793 | 34,38 |
1914 | 239,03 | 4.818.245 | 49,61 |
1915 | 274,83 | 4.816.998 | 57,05 |
1916 | 364,20 | 4.816.050 | 75,62 |
1917 | 520,12 | 4.815.401 | 108,01 |
1918 | 811,63 | 4.815.049 | 168,56 |
1919 | 687,79 | 4.814.994 | 142,84 |
1920 | 783,41 | 5.016.889 | 156,15 |
1921 | 779,69 | 5.089.515 | 153,19 |
1922 | 801,85 | 7.026.585 | 114,12 |
1923 | 797,66 | 7.097.580 | 112,38 |
1924 | 779,37 | 7.189.980 | 108,40 |
1925 | 911,72 | 7.336.337 | 124,27 |
1926 | 939,04 | 7.477.781 | 125,58 |
1927 | 895,18 | 7.576.898 | 118,15 |
1928 | 963,19 | 7.631.058 | 126,22 |
1929 | 1005,98 | 7.760.589 | 129,63 |
1930 | 1073,63 | 7.827.917 | 137,15 |
1931 | 978,39 | 7.945.508 | 123,14 |
1932 | 720,33 | 8.045.834 | 89,53 |
1933 | 888,42 | 8.142.271 | 109,11 |
1934 | 1171,04 | 8.262.597 | 141,73 |
1935 | 1233,50 | 8.397.409 | 146,89 |
1936 | 1237,04 | 8.517.443 | 145,24 |
1937 | 1443,29 | 8.629.884 | 167,24 |
1938 | 1463,58 | 8.740.925 | 167,44 |
1939 | 1327,69 | 8.958.718 | 148,20 |
1940 | 1519,67 | 9.004.369 | 168,77 |
Minorities in Greece
| Ethnic group/religion | Population |
|---|---|
| Armenian | 275,358 |
| Jewish | 132,991 |
| Albanian | 126,106 |
| Muslim | 171,161 |
| Slavomacedonian | 81,844 |
| Foreigners (includes Smyrna Levantines) | 56,168 |
Composition of Muslim population
| Group | Population |
|---|---|
| Circassian | 54,800 |
| Pomak | 77,240 |
| Cretan Muslims | 23,021 |
| Valaad | 11,700 |
| Ioannina Muslims (Turko-Giannote) | 3,200 |
| Muslim Vlachs | 1,200 |
Comparative growth of Greek industrial output TTL and OTL
| Year | OTL | TTL |
|---|---|---|
1913 | 29,71 | 29,71 |
1914 | 31,08 | 31,08 |
1915 | 32,52 | 32,52 |
1916 | 34,03 | 34,03 |
1917 | 35,60 | 35,60 |
1918 | 37,25 | 37,25 |
1919 | 38,98 | 38,98 |
1920 | 40,78 | 40,78 |
1921 | 42,67 | 57,42 |
1922 | 47,04 | 63,30 |
1923 | 45,54 | 73,00 |
1924 | 54,95 | 88,09 |
1925 | 61,38 | 98,40 |
1926 | 56,04 | 89,84 |
1927 | 62,43 | 100,08 |
1928 | 72,73 | 116,59 |
1929 | 76,26 | 122,25 |
1930 | 69,93 | 112,10 |
1931 | 67,50 | 108,21 |
1932 | 67,07 | 107,52 |
1933 | 74,62 | 119,62 |
1934 | 86,19 | 138,17 |
1935 | 89,84 | 144,02 |
1936 | 93,56 | 149,98 |
1937 | 97,69 | 156,60 |
1938 | 100,00 | 160,31 |
1939 | 106,42 | 170,60 |
9 million!!! In otl greece did not reach this population until the 80s this is a huge difference..if only we could add to this number the populations of cyprus,the Dodecanese and the city the population of greece would have reached 10,5 million
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And appears the only Muslim population of Ionia are the Circassians.. I wonder how the turks are going to treat them..not with open arms and hugs i assume due the fact that the Circassians helped the greeks in the asia minor campaign (or should i say the greek liberation of Ionia)
Greece did not reach 9 million till, checks 1975, for very specific reasons, namely mass demographic loss in 1914-23, further mass demographic loss in 1940-49 and then over a million people emigrating in 1955-71. The last alone would had brought Greek population over the 9 million mark by the mid 1960s. Here you at least partially ameliorated the demographic loss of 1914-23, things are unchanged for 1914-18 but the losses afterwards that run in the hundreds of thousands are avoided, and on top of than Greece gets nearly a quarter million more Armenians, North Epirus and non-Greeks in the new territories. At at the very time Greek birth rates peak...
That's in the eye of the beholder of course. For the Greeks (and Armenians) it's obviously the liberation of Smyrna. For the Turks not so much.
This remains to be seen is it not?
100 as can be seen is Greece in OTL 1938...
Nominal GDP, at prices and exchange rates of that year (thus not adjusting for inflation). Compared to OTL a dollar in TTL 1938 is a dollar in OTL 1938 there is no reason the US economy would be affected by what's happening in Greece or Turkey.