Miscellaneous >1900 (Alternate) History Thread

Excellent advice. Soviet and Russian submarines were very "Japanese".
Actually watching his Yankee brief now. He is really the only source in anything Soviet I trust implicitly accuracy wise.

But to expand it seems the Soviets were good on the ideas side if things and could technically make very good boats. But a number of factors seemed to mean that many boats were accident prone or had build issues their counterparts never had to deal with
Can someone help me fill this in:

Atomic Rabbit
Also known asThe Atomic Rabbit Show
GenreScience fiction
Written by?
Directed by?
Voices of?
Theme music composer?
Country of originUnited States
Original languageEnglish
No. of seasons1
No. of episodes13
Running time30 minutes
Production companyWalter Lantz Productions
Original networkDuMont
Original releaseNovember 7, 1966 –
October 5, 1967
Last edited:
What Soviet fighter could be introduced instead of MiG-21? One that is more like F-4 in range
You need the USSR to see a need for such a fighter. The Mig-21 was meant to act as an interceptor to defend Soviet positions against enemy bombers. Thats a very useful role in the period and I dont see the Soviet air forces not building something like that. However they may decide they need something akin to the F4 to act as a strike fighter, who knows, they may have such a plane already but we dont hear about it.
AHC - have Argentina fight the Falklands war with exclusively Soviet made equipment
... that would mean making Argentina comunist for at least 10 years... good luck! :cool:

On the topic: it would be very bad for the UK, assuming the People's Air Force of Argentina had Mig-23s and Su-22s
AHC - design a perfect German medium tank that
1. Has to replace the Pz iv
2. Enters production 1937-39
3. Has to be easier to produce and maintain than Pz IV
4. Good modernization potential
AHC - have Argentina fight the Falklands war with exclusively Soviet made equipment
As someone said earlier, have Argentina be very close to the Soviets. But that would change the dynamic in South America significantly, that I can't see the war as OTL happening. Because after all the US State Department gave Argentina the (false) impression that the US would back Argentina in the war or at least stay very neutral (not like they did in the end), South American Anti-Soviet collaboration and all that, I don't remember the exact terms used offhand. Because after all, Argentina is the more important partner if it comes to war against the USSR than the UK...

And then the whole dynamic in South America would be totally different with a Soviet (aligned) Argentina in place. I'm not really that familiar with the area and time, but I'd expect 'containment' of some kind, with a significant US backing of Uruguay, Brazil and/or especially Chile, making even a no-longer Soviet aligned Argentina someone that both the US and UK would watch warily. (Quick checking shows that what I though of was probably a less effective initially, leading into a very different 'Operation Condor'.) And in such a climate I can't see the steps leading up to the Falkland War to happen. No decommissioning without replacement of HMS Endurance (or at least replacement with some kind of warship on station), more of a reaction when Argentina moves in on the South Sandwich islands in the late 70s...

And even then, I'd expect the internal politics of Argentina to be different - though admittedly, a failing regime making one last external throw of the dice to safe their own position might still happen in some kind.

So: If an ATL Falkland War happens, where Argentina uses near exclusively Soviet equipment (though I can see them still using the ex-western ships they had) it'd very likely be a proxy war between the two blocks, unlike OTL. Though I'm certain the Brits would object to be put in the position of the 'proxy' in this case.
AHC - design a perfect German medium tank that
1. Has to replace the Pz iv
2. Enters production 1937-39
3. Has to be easier to produce and maintain than Pz IV
4. Good modernization potential
37-39 is too soon, that's precisely when the IV is being developed and built. Go for 39-41 and use the VK20 series as basis.
Challenge - make the US and iran two most powerful states in the world
How about develop the timeline as an outline and submit it for peer review?


AHC - have Argentina fight the Falklands war with exclusively Soviet made equipment

General characteristics

  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 19.02 m (62 ft 5 in)
  • Wingspan: 13.68 m (44 ft 11 in) wings spread
10.02 m (33 ft) wings swept
  • Height: 5.12 m (16 ft 10 in)
  • Wing area: 38.5 m2 (414 sq ft) wings spread
34.5 m2 (371 sq ft) wings swept
  • Airfoil: root: TsAGI SR-3S (5.9%); tip: TsAGI SR-3S (4.7%)[71]
  • Empty weight: 12,160 kg (26,808 lb)
  • Gross weight: 16,400 kg (36,156 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 19,430 kg (42,836 lb)
  • Fuel capacity: 3,770 kg (8,311 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Lyulka AL-21F-3 afterburning turbojet engine, 76.4 kN (17,200 lbf) thrust dry, 109.8 kN (24,700 lbf) with afterburner

  • Maximum speed: 1,400 km/h (870 mph, 760 kn) / M1.13 at sea level
1,860 km/h (1,160 mph; 1,000 kn) at altitude
  • Combat range: 1,150 km (710 mi, 620 nmi) hi-lo-hi attack with 2,000 kg (4,409 lb) warload
  • Ferry range: 2,300 km (1,400 mi, 1,200 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 14,200 m (46,600 ft)
  • g limits: +7
  • Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,000 ft/min)
  • Wing loading: 443 kg/m2 (91 lb/sq ft)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.68

Substitutes for A-4 Skyhawk and Super-Etendard.

There is no Russian aircraft for CATOBAR aircraft carriers in the time period.

So what replaces the Cinco de Mayo air-group?

Unless one gets a Buccaneer, one is screwed.

How about the Mirages and Kfirs?

General characteristics

  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 14.7 m (48 ft 3 in) excluding pitot boom
  • Wingspan: 7.154 m (23 ft 6 in)
  • Height: 4.1 m (13 ft 5 in)
  • Wing area: 23 m2 (250 sq ft)
  • Airfoil: root: TsAGI S-12 (4.2%); tip: TsAGI S-12 (5%)[156]
  • Gross weight: 8,725 kg (19,235 lb) with two R-3S missiles
  • Max takeoff weight: 8,800 kg (19,401 lb) unprepared or metal planking runway
9,800 kg (21,605 lb) paved runway with standard wheels and tyres10,400 kg (22,928 lb) paved runway with larger wheels and tyres
  • Powerplant: 1 × Tumansky R-25-300 afterburning turbojet, 40.18 kN (9,030 lbf) thrust dry, 69.58 kN (15,640 lbf) with afterburner

  • Maximum speed: 2,175 km/h (1,351 mph, 1,174 kn) / M2.05 at 13,000 m (43,000 ft)
1,300 km/h (810 mph; 700 kn) / M1.06 at sea level
  • Landing speed: 250 km/h (160 mph; 130 kn)
  • Range: 660 km (410 mi, 360 nmi) clean at 11,000 m (36,089 ft)
604 km (375 mi; 326 nmi) at 11,000 m (36,089 ft) with two R-3S missiles793 km (493 mi; 428 nmi) at 10,000 m (32,808 ft) with two R-3S missiles and 800 l (210 US gal; 180 imp gal) drop-tank
  • Service ceiling: 17,500 m (57,400 ft)
  • Time to altitude: 17,000 m (55,774 ft) in 8 minutes 30 seconds
  • Thrust/weight: 0.76
  • Take-off run: 830 m (2,723 ft)
  • Landing run with SPS and brake parachute: 550 m (1,804 ft)

  • Guns: 1 × internal 23 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L autocannon with 200 rounds
  • Hardpoints:5 (4 underwing + 1 ventral, reserved for fuel droptanks) with provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Rockets: 4 × S-24 or 4× UB-16-57 rocket pods (4× 16 57 mm rockets)
    • Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles
  • K-13
  • R-55
  • R-60
  • Bombs: 2 × 500 kg (1,100 lb) and 2 × 250 kg bombs

Cannot reach the Falkland Islands.

Buy Swedish...instead.

General characteristics

  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 15.35 m (50 ft 4 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.42 m (30 ft 11 in)
  • Height: 3.89 m (12 ft 9 in)
  • Wing area: 49.2 m2 (530 sq ft)
  • Airfoil: 5%
  • Empty weight: 7,865 kg (17,339 lb)
  • Gross weight: 11,000 kg (24,251 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 11,914 kg (26,266 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Svenska Flygmotor RM6C afterburning turbojet engine, 56.5 kN (12,700 lbf) thrust dry, 78.4 kN (17,600 lbf) with afterburner

  • Maximum speed: 2,450 km/h (1,520 mph, 1,320 kn) at 11,000 m (36,089 ft)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 2
  • Ferry range: 2,750 km (1,710 mi, 1,480 nmi) with external drop tanks
  • Service ceiling: 20,000 m (66,000 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 199 m/s (39,200 ft/min)
  • Wing loading: 231.6 kg/m2 (47.4 lb/sq ft)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.7
  • Takeoff roll: 800 m (2,625 ft)

  • Guns: 1× or 2× 30 mm AKAN M/55 ADEN cannon with 100 rounds per gun (in Saab 35F one cannon was omitted (with 120 rounds) to fit avionics needed for Falcon missile integration,[24] earlier variants and export variants retained twin guns.)
  • Hardpoints:six for ordnance, or drop tanks on the bottom two hardpoints, with a capacity of 2,900 kg (6,393 lb),with provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Rockets: 2× 75 mm air-to-ground rocket pods ventrally or 12× 135 mm rockets on six underwing pylons [33]
    • Missiles: Rb 24, Rb 27 and Rb 28 air-to-air missiles [24]
    • Bombs: The Danish export version, (F-35), was modified according to NATO standards and was fitted with 1,000lb bomb hardpoints[23]

And then there are the C-130s...

Specifications (An-12)[edit]​

Antonov An-12
Data from Global Aircraft,[29] Airliners.net[30]

General characteristics

  • Crew: 5 (two pilots, flight engineer, navigator, radio operator)
  • Capacity: 20,000 kg (44,092 lb) payload / 60 paratroopers / 2x BMD-1 armoured vehicles
  • Length: 33.1 m (108 ft 7 in)
  • Wingspan: 38 m (124 ft 8 in)
  • Height: 10.53 m (34 ft 7 in)
  • Wing area: 121.7 m2 (1,310 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 28,000 kg (61,729 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 61,000 kg (134,482 lb)
  • Powerplant: 4 × Ivchenko AI-20L or AI-20M turboprop engines, 3,000 kW (4,000 shp) each equivalent
  • Propellers: 4-bladed constant-speed reversible-pitch propellers

  • Maximum speed: 660 km/h (410 mph, 360 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 570 km/h (350 mph, 310 kn)
  • Range: 5,700 km (3,500 mi, 3,100 nmi) with maximum fuel
3,600 km (2,200 mi; 1,900 nmi) with maximum payload
  • Service ceiling: 10,200 m (33,500 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 10 m/s (2,000 ft/min)

Canberra bomber replacement?

Specifications (Il-28)[edit]​

Ilyushin Il-28 3-view drawing
Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft 1982–83[37]

General characteristics

  • Crew: 3
  • Length: 17.65 m (57 ft 11 in)
  • Wingspan: 21.45 m (70 ft 4 in)
  • Height: 6.7 m (22 ft 0 in)
  • Wing area: 60 m2 (650 sq ft)
  • Airfoil: TsAGI SR-5S (12%)[53]
  • Empty weight: 12,890 kg (28,418 lb)
  • Gross weight: 18,400 kg (40,565 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 21,200 kg (46,738 lb)
  • Powerplant: 2 × Klimov VK-1A centrifugal-flow turbojet engines, 26.5 kN (6,000 lbf) thrust each

  • Maximum speed: 902 km/h (560 mph, 487 kn) at 4,500 m (14,764 ft)
  • Cruise speed: 770 km/h (480 mph, 420 kn) at 10,000 m (32,808 ft)
  • Range: 2,180 km (1,350 mi, 1,180 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 12,300 m (40,400 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 15 m/s (3,000 ft/min)

  • Guns: 4 × Nudelman-Rikhter NR-23 cannons (2 in nose and 2 in tail barbette)
  • Bombs: 3,000 kg (6,600 lb) of bombs in internal bay (1,000 kg (2,200 lb) normal)
Problem is that it cannot reach the Falklands... either.

General characteristics

  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 15.57 m (51 ft 1 in)
  • Wingspan: 15.1 m (49 ft 6 in)
  • Height: 4.94 m (16 ft 2 in)
  • Wing area: 45 m2 (480 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 10,000 kg (22,046 lb)
  • Gross weight: 17,500 kg (38,581 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 21,000 kg (46,297 lb)
  • Powerplant: 2 × SNECMA Atar 101E-3 turbojet engines, 34.3 kN (7,700 lbf) thrust each

  • Maximum speed: 1,106 km/h (687 mph, 597 kn) at sea level
  • Maximum speed: Mach 0.9
  • Range: 5,400 km (3,400 mi, 2,900 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 15,200 m (49,900 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 60 m/s (12,000 ft/min)
  • Wing loading: 403 kg/m2 (83 lb/sq ft)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.4

  • Guns: 4× 30 mm DEFA cannons with 100 rounds per gun
  • Internal weapons bay for maximum of 2,725 kg (6,000 lb) of bombs (typically six 450 kg (1,000 lb) bombs), pack of 116× 68 mm (2.7 in) rockets, camera pack, or two 1,500 liter (400 U.S. gal) fuel tanks
  • Hardpoints: Four underwing pylons each rated at 1,500 kg (3,300 lb) inboard and 500 kg (1,100 lb) outboard with a capacity of 4,000 kg (8,800 lb); maximum practical total weapons load 4,400 kg (9,700 lb) of bombs, rockets, missiles, or napalm tanks,

For Grins and Giggles try a Yak instead.

General characteristics

  • Crew: 2
  • Length: 21.6 m (70 ft 10 in)
  • Wingspan: 12.5 m (41 ft 0 in)
  • Height: 3.95 m (13 ft 0 in)
  • Wing area: 37.6 m2 (405 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 9,970 kg (21,980 lb) [6]
  • Gross weight: 15,000 kg (33,069 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 20,000 kg (44,092 lb)
  • Powerplant: 2 × Tumansky R-11 afterburning turbojet engines, 46 kN (10,000 lbf) thrust each dry, 62 kN (14,000 lbf) with afterburner

  • Maximum speed: 1,840 km/h (1,140 mph, 990 kn)
  • Range: 2,500 km (1,600 mi, 1,300 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 16,750 m (54,950 ft)
  • Wing loading: 531 kg/m2 (109 lb/sq ft)
  • Thrust/weight: 0.62

Better stick with the Sud. This turkey cannot reach the Falklands and stay either.

In other words, state a thesis and figure out the parameters and be surprised by the results.
Challenge - make the US and iran two most powerful states in the world
Pretty hard to do after 1900, but before 1900 is pretty easy. Have an Afsharid wank that culminates in Persia modernising, while the American Revolution still happens on schedule and the United States still forms. Afsharid Persia rules from Mesopotamia to the Indus and they maintain borders in Central Asia and the Caucasus. They're propped up by the British as an ally against the Russians enabling them to hold their own and play their own "Great Game". With their links with Europe, they're able to modernise with some difficulty to at least Russia levels by the early 20th century and form a cohesive ideology of Persian pan-nationalism and loyalty to the Afsharid shahs. Meanwhile American history still results in the westward expansion of the US, industrialisation, immigration, etc.

There's still one great war in the 20th century, like the one where the Anglo-German alliance defeats the Franco-Russian alliance after an exhausting war. Russia collapses into civil war for over a decade and the RSFSR (the Soviet Union is never organised) is even weaker TTL thanks to failed industrialisation and how Japan annexed their Pacific Coast/set it up under puppet states. The US stays neutral until the very end when they annex a few islands in Bering Sea and part of the French Caribbean, and Persia likewise does so, content to sell oil, food, and other supplies to both sides, only intervening at the end annex a Black Sea port from Russia. World War II is more of an inter-European war over the collapse of Austria-Hungary in a great depression, where France, Italy, Britain, and the RSFSR attempt to pick up the pieces of Central and Eastern Europe and prevent German hegemony. The war doesn't go well for Germany and their Hungarian allies, who keep some of their gains from the first war but fail to secure true domination over Eastern Europe. Naturally, this war is very costly and another generation dies, all while the Persians and the Americans sit on the sidelines selling supplies

Decolonisation still happens on schedule, crippling the colonial empires of Europe. Germany spends almost 20 years bogged down in what's basically Vietnam on steroids. Japan never develops its booming economy TTL, remaining a local power at best (especially thanks to the lengthy Korean War of Independence), while a renewed Nationalist China (lacking Manchukuo, a communist state and ally of the RSFSR) ends up fighting a lengthy and costly war with Russia. India remains to Persia what Latin America is to the US, albeit with a crippling sectarian divide between Muslims and Hindus TTL deliberately fanned by Persian intervention. European integration never really takes off thanks to very hostile Franco-German relations

By the end of the 20th century, it's clear that there are two great powers in the world--the Imperial State of Persia and the United States of America. Any potential third player, like Imperial Germany, the RSFSR, or China remains far behind. Persia is an energy and resource superpower whose critical weakness is oil, their smaller population, and weaker economy. The United States is superior in most other regards, but it has its own internal issues and has the resentment of many parts of the world for constant interference.