Ming America: Whither Europe?

[Faeelin]

That's the crux of this whole issue, which I think everyone is ignoring. Do we even have a recognizable Europe in 1600 without Peruvian silver? The whole growth of commerce in Europe which stimulated the Enlightenment was built on Spanish silver. Without a good currency, Europe's economy will be retarded, and it follows that Europe's scientific and cultural development, not to mention further colonial efforts, are going to be much less than OTL.

Given all this *whew*, where is Europe left? How much (if at all) is China affected? The question is about Europe, not China or America.

I agree 100%.

But can Europe bounce back in gthe global economy? Even if Europeans become better pirates in the rest of the world than OTL (and that seems unlikely) I have a hrd time seeng them making up for the economic loss. I suppose prices of goods in Europe oculd be lower (although less silver means less money, so not good).

 

[Nicomacheus]

Take the developments laid out by La Malinche, then add this: by the time of Spanish trans-Atlantic expeditions (which are of course supposed to be looking for China), most states of Meso-America have some kind of regularized contact with Chinese officials. Colombus asks some locals and hears, "Oh yes, we've heard of those people; they live just a bit further west of here." Early European explorers actually finding Asians greatly complicates their reaction to finding the New World. Perhaps they arrive sooner in greater numbers. Until of course they figure out there's no natural access across the continent.

Similarly, do the Chinese once they realize the Europeans are knocking on the door of the New World journey there directly via the Cape of Good Hope?

Whichever way it flows, I think the result of a Chinese presence in America before Spain is a more multi-polar global trade network, which creates something along the lines of Gurkani Alam. China will be a more open place (though not completely). Europe may not be quite so afraid of Hapsburg/Bourbon attempts to create pan-empires, since such arrangments would nicely protect against the Dragon Throne.

 

[La Malinche]

Apologies for again resurrecting this thread from the dead, but I'd like to hear some more ideas about a Europe that's less involved in the New World. Would it be plausible that Spain would direct its colonial aggression against North Africa instead of the Caribbean and that the prevailing model for European settlement would be the Dutch/Portuguese mercantile model? One can assume that with no "New Spain" to compete with, there won't be a "New England", "New France", and "New Netherlands", though I suppose Caribbean cash crop colonies are possible.

Any discoveries that might focus European attention on Africa and the Indian Ocean instead of the Americas? Perhaps the Ming fleets we mentioned earlier could have some effect along those lines?

Would you suggest I post a new thread with these questions?

 

[Philip]

Apologies for again resurrecting this thread from the dead, but I'd like to hear some more ideas about a Europe that's less involved in the New World. Would it be plausible that Spain would direct its colonial aggression against North Africa instead of the Caribbean

It is certainly possible that North Africa would be their focus. Success? That could be another story.

and that the prevailing model for European settlement would be the Dutch/Portuguese mercantile model?

Do you mean in the Americas? It probably would initially follow that model. Or did you mean in Africa? Given the religions of the time, conquest is a more likely goal for Spain.

One can assume that with no "New Spain" to compete with, there won't be a "New England", "New France", and "New Netherlands", though I suppose Caribbean cash crop colonies are possible.

I don't think you can make that assumption.

 

[La Malinche]

It is certainly possible that North Africa would be their focus. Success? That could be another story.

But what would it take for North Africa to be their focus (besides no Columbus)? What does Spain stand to gain from conquering North Africa besides the sheer bloody-minded satisfaction of conquering the Moors?

Do you mean in the Americas? It probably would initially follow that model. Or did you mean in Africa? Given the religions of the time, conquest is a more likely goal for Spain.

I mean in the Americas, yes. But you make a good point about Africa. Spain won't be content to just have trading posts when it can secure territory.

I don't think you can make that assumption.

Why not? From what I understand, keeping the New World from being entirely Spanish was the explicit goal of the English in Virginia (I know, the French and Dutch were originally about the fur trade)

 

[Ran Exilis]

But what would it take for North Africa to be their focus (besides no Columbus)? What does Spain stand to gain from conquering North Africa besides the sheer bloody-minded satisfaction of conquering the Moors?

Control over the western and central Mediterranean, and a successful Spanish conquest of the Northwest African coast would put an end to the Barbary pirates.

And if you wanna take things really far, then you can throw in a Spanish attempt to conquer Mali, along with all of its gold.

...but a Spanish conquest of Mali in the 16th century would definitely be one of the more implausible scenario's.