Nobles could elect anyone, there were plenty of candidates other than Habsburg and Valois, Valois just happened to be strongest ant-Habsburg candidate, so he gained support of whole camp, these people would support strongest ant-Habsburg option in every case, be it Duke of Ferrara or some Gediminid nobleman or illegitimate decendant of Sigismund the Old. Everyone but Habsburg. They were really, really hated.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
That was OTL, in a different situation from the actual… for what reason the Habsburg were so hated in Poland and when that started?
As I've mentioned:
-they were associated with absolutism
-being chidless Sigismund Augustus sided with Executionist movement, thus weakened magnates (who were main support base for Habsburgs in Bohemia and Hungary)
-3rd quarter of 16th century is peak of Reformation in Poland. Never before and after Protestants were so strong, and they feared Habsburg, who were champions of Catholicism.
-Poles feared, that Habsburg will drag Poland into war with Ottomans.
And all of this is guaranteed and immutable in any scenario, also if we are at least 25 years after the POD, who leave the Habsburg in a far less secure position than OTL, right? A POD not later than 1525 could very well change the course of Reformation itself
Easy mode is: Sigismund Augustus has a daughter, whom he married to Archduke, and instead of pursuing Union of Lublin hand in hand with Executionists, he try to install his daughter and son-in-law on Lithuanian throne.
Not guaranteed, but very hard to stop, maybe if Sigismund's I reign went differently, if executionists were weakened, than Habsburgs could make their way to Polish throne.
But Sigismund Augustus would side with executionists anyway if he had no heir, and if he had a heir then Habsburgs would still not get the throne for obvious reason.
Well, in that topic many PODs are allowed so I thought about scenario like - "wojna kokosza" gets actually bloody, executionists get beaten and Catholic magnates would be biggest powerbrokers alongside King and than Habsburgs could get the throne. Not very likely, but not ASB either.
But still, Spanish Habsburg without a drop of Jagiellon blood is still not the best candidate to start Polish Habsburg line.
Yeah, even king and magnates would prefer someone related to previous King as future King, tho maybe if John is married to SA's relative, he could get the look, let's say he is obsessed with idea of gaining some throne for all cost and actively pursues that.
John is married to Sigismund the Old‘s eldest granddaughter (I told you who Ferdinand secured the Hungarian crown for his nephew marrying him to Zapolya’s great niece), as I never believed who he could be elected without that marriage…
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Yeah, but it still requires: "Sigismund I actively fucking up the executionists" element, because without it they would elect rando.
So, I was poking through older posts in this thread and reread the collection of Other Tudors and Their Six Spouse (Elizabeth 1, Elizabeth 2, Mary 1, Mary 2, Mary 3, Edward 1, Henry FitzRoy) (please let me know if I missed one). And I realized we'd skipped the previous Tudor generation(s). So here's my version of Henry VII and His Six Wives
Henry VII Tudor, King of England (b. 1457, d. 1528) married
a) Katherine Woodville (b. 1458, d. 1472) in 1463, marriage never consummated, marriage ended at either the death of Katherine Woodville in 1472 or when Henry fled the country in 1471, no issue
b) Margaret of Brittany* (b. 1459, d. 1480) in 1475, marriage ended at the death of Margaret of Brittany in 1480, had female issue:
c) Elizabeth of York (b. 1466, d. 1499) in 1486, marriage ended at the death of Elizabeth of York in 1499, had issue:
d) Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485, d. 1554) in 1503, marriage annulled in 1503, no issue
e) Margaret of Austria (b. 1480, d. 1522) in 1505, marriage ended at the death of Margaret of Austria in 1520, had issue:
f) Marguerite de Angoulême, (b. 1492, ) in 1526, marriage ended at the death of Henry VII in 1528, had issue:
*This one is definitely a stretch, but 🤷🏻♀️
**This is not OTL Eleanor of Austria daughter of Philip, but the daughter of Maximillian and Anne of Brittany
***I made him up, but I figured after being a dutiful widow for so long Philippa should get a hot Swiss mercenary
Henry VII Tudor, King of England (b. 1457, d. 1528) married
a) Katherine Woodville (b. 1458, d. 1472) in 1463, marriage never consummated, marriage ended at either the death of Katherine Woodville in 1472 or when Henry fled the country in 1471, no issue
- As a way to bind an erstwhile Lancaster to his family Edward arranges the marriage of Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond to Edward’s youngest sister-in-law. The marriage is never consummated, and either ends when Henry flees the country in 1471 or when Katherine Woodville dies from a chill the next year. Depending on who you ask.
b) Margaret of Brittany* (b. 1459, d. 1480) in 1475, marriage ended at the death of Margaret of Brittany in 1480, had female issue:
- The daughter of Francis II, Duke of Brittany and his first wife Margaret of Brittany, Margaret the Younger was a tad spoiled. So, when she started demanding to wed the handsome exiled English lord, or else, Francis eventually caved. She dies in childbirth.
1b) Margaret Tudor, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1478, d. 1556) married Philip von Habsburg, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1478, d. 1505) in 1499, marriage ended at the death of Philip von Habsburg in 1505, with issue
2b) Catherine Tudor of Brittany (b. 1480, d. 1583)
c) Elizabeth of York (b. 1466, d. 1499) in 1486, marriage ended at the death of Elizabeth of York in 1499, had issue:
- Basically the same as OTL.
3c) Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales (b. 1486, d. 1502) married Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485, d. 1554) in 1501, marriage ended at the death of Arthur Tudor in 1502, no issue
4c) Margaret Tudor (b. 1489, d. 1554) married James IV Stewart, King of Scotland (b. 1473, d. 1540) in 1503, marriage ended at the death of James Stewart in 1540
5c) Henry VIII Tudor, King of England (b. 1491, d. 1549) married a) Eleanor of Austria** (b. 1494, d. 1565) in 1509, marriage ended at the death of Henry Tudor in 1549, had issue; had relations with b) Elizabeth Blount (b. 1498, d. 1543); c) Janet Stewart (b. 1502, d. 1562); d) Jane Seymour (b. 1508, d. 1558)
6c) Elizabeth Tudor, (b. 1492, d. 1495)
7c) Mary Tudor (b. 1496, d. 1541) married Charles IX Valois, King of France (b. 1497, d. 1553) in 1513, marriage ended at the death of Mary Tudor in 1541, with issue
8c) Edmund Tudor, Duke of Somerset (b. 1499, d. 1577) married a) Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne, Countess of Auvergne (b. 1498, d. 1519) in 1514, marriage ended at the death of Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne in 1519, with issue; b) Anne Boleyn (b. 1501, d. 1577) in 1523, marriage ended in 1577 at the death of Edmund Tudor, with issue
d) Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485, d. 1554) in 1503, marriage annulled in 1503, no issue
- Already widowed with Arthur dies, Henry VII thinks it’s a stellar idea to wed his former daughter-in-law. The wedding had just taken place when word from Ferdinand refusing the marriage reaches England. A bit of back and forth takes place, and eventually Ferdinand agrees to let Henry keep the part of the dowry he’s already received to get Catherine back. She’s definitely happier for it.
e) Margaret of Austria (b. 1480, d. 1522) in 1505, marriage ended at the death of Margaret of Austria in 1520, had issue:
- Henry and Margaret meet at the funeral of Philip of Burgundy. The two bond of their mutual widowhood and wed. The rather happy marriage is marked by a large patch in the middle (from 1508 to 1516) where Margaret is in Burgundy helping her former sister-in-law/stepdaughter. She’s in England from 1516 to 1520 and Margaret dies when her ship is lost at sea crossing back to Burgundy.
9e) Charles Tudor, Duke of Richmond (b. 1506, d. 1569) married Anne Bourchier, Baroness Bourchier, (b. 1517, d. 1580) in 1532, marriage ended at the death of Charles Tudor in 1569, with issue
10e) Eleanor Tudor (b. 1508, d. 1561) married Henry II d’Albret, King of Navarre (b. 1503, d. 1555) in 1525, marriage ended in 1555 at the death of Henry d’Albret, with issue
11e) Lionel Tudor, Duke of Bedford (b. 1517, ) married a) Katherine Willoughby, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby, (b. 1519, d. 1551) in 1532, marriage ended at the death of Katherine Willoughby in 1551, with issue;
12e) John Tudor, (b. 1518, d. 1518)
13e) Philippa Tudor (b. 1520, d. 1583) married a) Francis I de Lorraine, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1517, d. 1545) in 1535, marriage ended at the death of Francis de Lorraine in 1545, with issue; b) Rudolf von Erlach (b. 1525, d. 1580) in 1537, marriage ended at the death of Rudolf von Erlach*** in 1580, with issue
f) Marguerite de Angoulême, (b. 1492, ) in 1526, marriage ended at the death of Henry VII in 1528, had issue:
- When Mary hears that her father is looking around for another bride, she thinks of her widowed cousin-in-law, Marguerite. The marriage is arranged and Henry and Marguerite are relatively happy. Marguerite is often credited with bringing the Reformation to England, though that is an oversimplification.
14f) Louise Tudor (b. 1528, d. 1559) married Frederick II Oldenburg, King of Denmark and Norway (b. 1532, d. ) in 1547, marriage ended at the death of Louise Tudor in 1559, had issue
*This one is definitely a stretch, but 🤷🏻♀️
**This is not OTL Eleanor of Austria daughter of Philip, but the daughter of Maximillian and Anne of Brittany
***I made him up, but I figured after being a dutiful widow for so long Philippa should get a hot Swiss mercenary
"Six Husbands of Katherine of Aragon" the ASB TL
Katherine of Aragon m. a) Arthur Tudor Prince of Wales, b) Henry VIII of England, c) Louis XII of France, d) Manuel I of Portugal, e) Sigismund I of Poland, f) Ferdinand of Calabria
1b) Mary I of England
2c) Isabella of France
3d) Joanna of Portugal
4e) Katherine of Poland
5f) Ferdinand of Naples
Katherine of Aragon m. a) Arthur Tudor Prince of Wales, b) Henry VIII of England, c) Louis XII of France, d) Manuel I of Portugal, e) Sigismund I of Poland, f) Ferdinand of Calabria
1b) Mary I of England
2c) Isabella of France
3d) Joanna of Portugal
4e) Katherine of Poland
5f) Ferdinand of Naples
This is one that I've had in the back of my mind for ages, but I'll almost certainly never write another Caroline War timeline, so here goes.
POD: 1364-5
John of Montfort dies sometime after the Battle of Auray, but before signing the Treaty of Guérande. His cause of death is unimportant, but not nefarious. (He catches a fever or the plague.) The Montfortists have thus won the War of the Breton Succession, but lost their duke before the peace can be settled. The Blois-Penthièvre are similarly duke-less, with Charles of Blois dead on the field of battle and his eldest son and heir, John of Blois, a prisoner in England. John of Montfort's heir is his sister, Joan of Montfort. A plan to have John of Blois and Joan of Montfort unite their claims via marriage is quickly shot down by King Edward III, who refuses to ransom John of Blois.
Joan of Montfort, having been raised in England and being entirely dependent on the English crown, weds Edward III's fourth son, Edmund of Langley. John of Gaunt resigns the earldom of Richmond, which is restored to Joan -- and Edmund, jure uxoris -- and the pair pick up the fight for Brittany where John would-have-been-IV left off.
Edmund of Langley wed Joan of Montfort, suo jure duchess of Brittany and suo jure countess of Richmond, in 1365, had issue:
John, earl of Richmond, would inherit his mother's English lands. Once one of the greatest estates in all England, it was poorly managed by his weak father and his mother was an absentee countess at the best of times. John was thus reliant on the goodwill of his cousin, King Richard II. Richard showered John with gifts, despite the earl's limited abilities. John grew accustomed to a lifestyle he couldn't afford, making Richard's downfall in 1399 a personal disaster for him. Too cowardly to join the Epiphany Rising, he looked for support from his other cousin, the new King Henry IV, but he never found favor in the new regime. In 1402, he was discovered plotting to murder the new king and was executed. His estates were declared forfeit to the crown and his only surviving child was put into a nunnery. John's death and attainder strained relations with Brittany for a time, as John's brother, Edward I of Brittany, had come to power just months before John's death. Edward eventually accepted his family's loss of Richmond, counting it as part of his daughter, Joan of Brittany's, dowry in 1406, when she married the prince of Wales, who would later become King Henry V.
Joan of Brittany (daughter of Edmund of Langley -- not to be confused with her niece of the same name) wed Thomas Holland, nephew of King Richard II. This was part of a double marriage between the Bretons and the Hollands (see: John, earl of Richmond, above) to tie Richard's closest kin to Brittany in the dark final years of the War of the Breton Succession. The effort was a success, with the English finally putting Joan of Montfort on the ducal throne at great expense in the 1380s, but the marriage was a failure on a personal level. The two hated one another, leading Joan to tip off Henry IV as to her husband's role in the Epiphany Rising, which unraveled the whole conspiracy and led to Holland's execution in 1400. Joan was allowed to hold on much of her late husband's estates in dower, and happily lived out her days as a wealthy widow.
(Yes, yes I did intentionally name as many John/Joan as possible and wed them to as many Joans as possible just to keep that weird streak from the OTL War of the Breton Succession going.)
POD: 1364-5
John of Montfort dies sometime after the Battle of Auray, but before signing the Treaty of Guérande. His cause of death is unimportant, but not nefarious. (He catches a fever or the plague.) The Montfortists have thus won the War of the Breton Succession, but lost their duke before the peace can be settled. The Blois-Penthièvre are similarly duke-less, with Charles of Blois dead on the field of battle and his eldest son and heir, John of Blois, a prisoner in England. John of Montfort's heir is his sister, Joan of Montfort. A plan to have John of Blois and Joan of Montfort unite their claims via marriage is quickly shot down by King Edward III, who refuses to ransom John of Blois.
Joan of Montfort, having been raised in England and being entirely dependent on the English crown, weds Edward III's fourth son, Edmund of Langley. John of Gaunt resigns the earldom of Richmond, which is restored to Joan -- and Edmund, jure uxoris -- and the pair pick up the fight for Brittany where John would-have-been-IV left off.
Edmund of Langley wed Joan of Montfort, suo jure duchess of Brittany and suo jure countess of Richmond, in 1365, had issue:
- Edward I, duke of Brittany (1370-1422) wed Joan of Navarre, had issue
- Arthur III, duke of Brittany, (born 1387) wed Joan of France
- Joan (born 1389) wed King Henry V of England
- Philippa (born 1390) died young
- Bonne (born 1391) wed John I, count of Alençon
- Isabella (born 1393) wed Olivier, count of Penthièvre
- John, count of Montfort (born 1394)
- Marie (born 1396) wed Alain IX, viscount of Rohan
- Blanche (born 1397) wed Guy XIII, lord of Laval
- Constance (born 1399) abbess of Fontevrault
- Edward (born 1401) died young
- Charles (born 1403) wed Margaret of Orléans, suo jure countess of Vertus
- John, earl of Richmond (1372-1402) wed Joan Holland, had issue
- John (born 1396) dies young
- Joan (born 1398) a nun of the Order of Minoresses
- Mary (born 1402) born posthumously, dies young
- Joan (1377-1416) wed Thomas Holland, 1st duke of Surrey, no issue
John, earl of Richmond, would inherit his mother's English lands. Once one of the greatest estates in all England, it was poorly managed by his weak father and his mother was an absentee countess at the best of times. John was thus reliant on the goodwill of his cousin, King Richard II. Richard showered John with gifts, despite the earl's limited abilities. John grew accustomed to a lifestyle he couldn't afford, making Richard's downfall in 1399 a personal disaster for him. Too cowardly to join the Epiphany Rising, he looked for support from his other cousin, the new King Henry IV, but he never found favor in the new regime. In 1402, he was discovered plotting to murder the new king and was executed. His estates were declared forfeit to the crown and his only surviving child was put into a nunnery. John's death and attainder strained relations with Brittany for a time, as John's brother, Edward I of Brittany, had come to power just months before John's death. Edward eventually accepted his family's loss of Richmond, counting it as part of his daughter, Joan of Brittany's, dowry in 1406, when she married the prince of Wales, who would later become King Henry V.
Joan of Brittany (daughter of Edmund of Langley -- not to be confused with her niece of the same name) wed Thomas Holland, nephew of King Richard II. This was part of a double marriage between the Bretons and the Hollands (see: John, earl of Richmond, above) to tie Richard's closest kin to Brittany in the dark final years of the War of the Breton Succession. The effort was a success, with the English finally putting Joan of Montfort on the ducal throne at great expense in the 1380s, but the marriage was a failure on a personal level. The two hated one another, leading Joan to tip off Henry IV as to her husband's role in the Epiphany Rising, which unraveled the whole conspiracy and led to Holland's execution in 1400. Joan was allowed to hold on much of her late husband's estates in dower, and happily lived out her days as a wealthy widow.
(Yes, yes I did intentionally name as many John/Joan as possible and wed them to as many Joans as possible just to keep that weird streak from the OTL War of the Breton Succession going.)
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@material_boy ! Amazing work! Suggestion: the stillborn son of Isabella and Ferdinand lives to become King of spain
A House of Griffins for @Jan Olbracht (need help with marriages)
Bogusław X, Duke of Pomerania (1454-1523) m: 1471 Katharina of Thuringia [1] (1453-1534)
[1] Daughter of Wilhelm the Brave, Landgrave of Thuringia and Anna of Austria, Duchess of Luxemburg
[2] Bogisław IX had an illegitimate son by this name as well. Doesn’t seem unlikely for a third son with two surviving brothers in front of him
[3] Bogisław’s OTL second wife
@Zygmunt Stary @King of Danes
Bogusław X, Duke of Pomerania (1454-1523) m: 1471 Katharina of Thuringia [1] (1453-1534)
Anna (1472-1513) m: ?
Barnim IX (1473-1478)
Wartisław XI (1475-1477)
Kasimir VIII, Duke of Pomerania (1493-1547) 1m: 1510 Margarethe of Anhalt (1494-1521); 2m: 1523 Anna of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1502)
Anna (1496-1497)
Katharina (1498-1539) m: 1517 Frederik, Duke of Holstein (1471-1533)
Christopher II, Duke of Pomerania- Słupsk (1500-1537)
Elisabeth (1502-1555)
Katharina (1479-1551) m: ?
Stillborn Son (1482)
[1] Daughter of Wilhelm the Brave, Landgrave of Thuringia and Anna of Austria, Duchess of Luxemburg
[2] Bogisław IX had an illegitimate son by this name as well. Doesn’t seem unlikely for a third son with two surviving brothers in front of him
[3] Bogisław’s OTL second wife
@Zygmunt Stary @King of Danes
Ladislaus the Posthumous does not exist. Thus his mother agrees to marry Władysław III of Poland and there is no civil war in Hungary between their supporters.
Vladislaus III/Ladislaus V [1] (1424-1458) King of Poland 1434, King of Bohemia and Hungary 1440, m. a) Elizabeth of Luxembourg (1409-1452), b) Anna of Saxony (1437-1512)
1a) Ladislaus VI (1441-1500) King of Bohemia and Hungary 1458, m. a) Margaret of Bavaria (1442-1479), b) Beatrice of Naples (1457-1508)
2a) Sigismund I (1442-1493) King of Poland 1458, m. Dorothea of Brandenburg (1446-1519)
3b) Hedwig (1455-1509) m. John Cicero (1455-1499) Elector of Brandenburg
4b) Sophia (1457-1503) m. Bogislaw X (1454-1523) Duke of Pomerania
[1] Until war between supporters of Vladislaus Jagiellon and Ladislaus the Posthumous it was seen as the same name. Distinction was made to make distinguish between two pretenders (Ulászlo vs Làszló)
Vladislaus III/Ladislaus V [1] (1424-1458) King of Poland 1434, King of Bohemia and Hungary 1440, m. a) Elizabeth of Luxembourg (1409-1452), b) Anna of Saxony (1437-1512)
1a) Ladislaus VI (1441-1500) King of Bohemia and Hungary 1458, m. a) Margaret of Bavaria (1442-1479), b) Beatrice of Naples (1457-1508)
2a) Sigismund I (1442-1493) King of Poland 1458, m. Dorothea of Brandenburg (1446-1519)
3b) Hedwig (1455-1509) m. John Cicero (1455-1499) Elector of Brandenburg
4b) Sophia (1457-1503) m. Bogislaw X (1454-1523) Duke of Pomerania
[1] Until war between supporters of Vladislaus Jagiellon and Ladislaus the Posthumous it was seen as the same name. Distinction was made to make distinguish between two pretenders (Ulászlo vs Làszló)
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