Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

[Driftless]

The Allies had better have full air and sea patrols covering every possible approach path to the landings sites North of Makassar. This might be shaping up to be similar to the Battle of Leyte Gulf but with a more powerful IJN in particular the remaining veteran carrier air groups. The Imperial Japanese command just might see their decisive battle though I would guess they aren't going to be happy with the results.

Given their historic appreciation for complex attack plans, might the Japanese have some level of force come down east of Sulawesi through the Banda Sea, along with the attack through the Makassar Straits? The theory being the Allies would need to split their forces to cover both lines of attack? (What naval forces are left at Palau & Truk?) I'd be surprised if they'd try the west of Borneo avenue as it's the really long way around and within range of land aircraft from Malaya and the western DEI for much of the journey.

Of course at this point, there aren't good options available.

 

[Crowbar Six]

It depends on if the IJN realizes there are RN Carriers out there, so far all the kinetic remodelling of Makassar has been done by the USAAF and USN. They have no idea that they are walking into a trap as yet. It really depends when they realise they are facing not only the USN carrier force but the FAA as well. With luck the first time they realise things have gone wrong is when the FAA night strike hammers them awake.

 

[Butchpfd]

Ah... FAA rules the night..., RN subs with good torpedos... and 300 years of tradition......

 

[RyderWest]

Ah... FAA rules the night..., RN subs with good torpedos... and 300 years of tradition......

And good old steel ships with iron men....

 

[sloreck]

and hearts of oak...

 

[historyfelon]

And good old steel ships with iron men....

My last cruise in the USN in '73-'74 was STANAVFORLANT (NATO) and I had the privilege of serving on the Leander class frigate HMS Sirius for several days while transiting from Lisbon to Cherbourg. I remember thinking that, even though the weapons systems seemed somewhat inferior to ours, at least the missiles and ASW (which I worked on), the crew was incredibly professional and had a spirit far superior to that of the crew of my ship, the USS Julius A.Furer DEG-6. I didn't hear a single gripe, complaint..not a single bad mouthing of the ship, the captain..nothing. Amazing. We had a saying in the USN, "A bitchin' sailor is a happy sailor". We must have been deliriously happy. Part of it might have had to do with the silo sized can of beer we got to drink each night...that was missing on the American ships. Each night our mess had a sing song and joke telling..on the Furer we just read, bitched, and watched movies on the mess decks, little of the camaraderie I found on the Sirius.

 

[fester]

I'm going to need a couple of days to plot out the Battle of the Straits... story is not in hiatus but the complexity is getting to me.

 

[mudhead]

My last cruise in the USN in '73-'74 was STANAVFORLANT (NATO) and I had the privilege of serving on the Leander class frigate HMS Sirius for several days while transiting from Lisbon to Cherbourg. I remember thinking that, even though the weapons systems seemed somewhat inferior to ours, at least the missiles and ASW (which I worked on), the crew was incredibly professional and had a spirit far superior to that of the crew of my ship, the USS Julius A.Furer DEG-6. I didn't hear a single gripe, complaint..not a single bad mouthing of the ship, the captain..nothing. Amazing. We had a saying in the USN, "A bitchin' sailor is a happy sailor". We must have been deliriously happy. Part of it might have had to do with the silo sized can of beer we got to drink each night...that was missing on the American ships. Each night our mess had a sing song and joke telling..on the Furer we just read, bitched, and watched movies on the mess decks, little of the camaraderie I found on the Sirius.

Alcohol is really important.

She had a major refit post-STANAVFORLANT - the Mk6 4.5" was replaced by 4xMM38s, and an extra Seacat was fitted. Flight deck was extended to the stern, Limbo removed, so the ship could operate a Lynx. Later, 2031I was fitted. Was on her for an ASWEX late-'80s when the weather was so bad south of Iceland that we couldn't turn for two days.

The TA drum was at the rear of the flightdeck, so the ship could still operate a helo. Cleopatra was the outlier in this group - the hangar was full of gadget controls, and the 2031 drum was moved forward on the flight deck, preventing helo ops - you had to be winched on and off, which was quite an experience - I "enjoyed" it on TEAMWORK 88. Strop on, arms down, then the signal: and the helo (a Sea King HAS 5 in this instance) would go straight up from the hover, while also using the winch motor. 0-200ft in about 4 seconds. Necessary so you didn't become intimate with the mast and radars on a rolling ship.

Happy days.

 

[steamboy]

The major combat fleet is 55/45 USN. USN (Fletcher) gets overall operational command. Somerville gets command of the heavy fighting fleet as an acknowledgement that the USN is stealing most of the RN's strategic striking power for a combined Allied objective. The air component commander is a RAF Air Marshall while the land force commander is a US general. Politics and keeping feathers minimally ruffled is a fine art and this operation is not a masterpiece but it will be more than yeoman's work.



Carriers:
RN
Ark Royal
Furious
Victorious
Indomitable

USN
Enterprise
Yorktown
Constellation
Lexington
Saratoga

Battleships
RN
King George V
Prince of Wales
Anson

USN
Washington
Massachusetts
South Dakota

Of this very powerful formation the weakest link is the Furious, she's lightly built and because of her hangar layout and design can't fit the raw number of AA guns carried by the AFD's, the UN's Carriers or their British cousin, the Ark Royal (which is closer to a USN carrier than the two Armoured flight deck carriers). The Battleships are all very modern and all have good AA fits. I'm not sure if the RN's still shipping the octuple pom-pom as its main AA gun or if they've been replaced with quad 40mm guns yet. The pom-pom wasn't a bad weapon, but it had aged, but hopefully the RN's overcome the problems that plagued Z force OTL with their pom-poms jamming due to the ammo sweating and expanding slightly, leading to jams. And whilst both the 2lb and 40mm are both the same caliber the Bofors had far superior ballistics and a higher muzzle velocity. The Dido's are good AA cruisers, but not as good as the Atlanta because the USN really did have the best naval AA gun mix when they married the Mk37 fire control to the 5-inch 37cal guns which became even more potent with the advent of Proximity fuses. Those don't exist yet so the Allies are still going to have to rely on box barrages.

Oddly enough both USN and RN have similar AA doctrine. Unlike the IJN who spread ships out so they could use manouverability as their main AA defence and make themselves hard targets with radical turns (its why we see lots of pics of IJN ships doing doughnuts when under attack), the RN and USN differed. Instead they operated in close formation and would use the big ship they were escorting as the leader for any turns. This would maximise firepower against incoming threats but at the cost of agility. But it did put something less important in the way of something more important at times. Box barrages are the order of the day and both the RN and USN are pretty darn experienced and whilst they'll be using timed fuses, these are going to be rather effective against the far more lightly built Japanese aircraft.

 

[fester]

Bataan, 0200 January 2, 1942

USS Master Standfast, USS Hopewell and USS Nonsuch departed from the protection of Fort Mills guns.

USS Orpheus, USS Typhon and USS Hermione were scheduled to arrive tomorrow.

Over a thousand miles away, a trio of former destroyers, heavily laden with fuel, food and ammunition also left the Riui Islands. The run would take advantage of the developing battle near Makassar to hold Japanese attention in that direction even as the transports made their dash in on a nearly moonless night.

 

[vl100butch]

fester, am I correct that the MTBs can carry about 45 tons a trip? I have an idea of what's going to be happening with some other aspects, but have to see where your muse takes you.

 

[fester]

fester, am I correct that the MTBs can carry about 45 tons a trip? I have an idea of what's going to be happening with some other aspects, but have to see where your muse takes you.

correct; the MTBs can transport about 45 tons (slight variation by vessel)

 

[Viper91]

Bad as the Japanese situation is, I really feel you're underestimating the forces they still have in and around the Philippines to an extent. Not saying the US can't force supplies through, but if it hasn't already happened, at some point one or more of these blockade runners is going to run across a Japanese warship or aircraft or mine and not work out so good. Hopefully though, even if this supply operation isn't sustainable long term, it could still buy the garrison many weeks or more

 

[Driftless]

The cargo skews heavily towards calorie dense foods with long storage life in the tropics?
The theory being to cram as much food onto the Penninsula as possible, operating on the premise the Japanese may attempt to tighten the blockade at any time? Their ability and willingness to commit significant resources to a rigid blockade may be a different matter.

 

[fester]

Bad as the Japanese situation is, I really feel you're underestimating the forces they still have in and around the Philippines to an extent. Not saying the US can't force supplies through, but if it hasn't already happened, at some point one or more of these blockade runners is going to run across a Japanese warship or aircraft or mine and not work out so good. Hopefully though, even if this supply operation isn't sustainable long term, it could still buy the garrison many weeks or more

The cargo skews heavily towards calorie dense foods with long storage life in the tropics?
The theory being to cram as much food onto the Penninsula as possible, operating on the premise the Japanese may attempt to tighten the blockade at any time? Their ability and willingness to commit significant resources to a rigid blockade may be a different matter.

Yep, the estimate is that the garrison has enough artillery ammo to hold on against anything other than a determined combined arms corps level assault so the challenge is food. ~45 tons/day at 75% content/25% packaging works out to a touch more than a pound per man per arrival or slightly more than 1 day worth of food for the garrison per arrival. This combined with short rations, submarine deliveries, gardens, fishing and limited local smuggling of fresh(ish) food stretches out the food budget for a while longer.

And each trip out brings out another 20-30 men which slightly reduces the consumption patterns as well.

 

[Viper91]

Yep, the estimate is that the garrison has enough artillery ammo to hold on against anything other than a determined combined arms corps level assault so the challenge is food. ~45 tons/day at 75% content/25% packaging works out to a touch more than a pound per man per arrival or slightly more than 1 day worth of food for the garrison per arrival. This combined with short rations, submarine deliveries, gardens, fishing and limited local smuggling of fresh(ish) food stretches out the food budget for a while longer.

And each trip out brings out another 20-30 men which slightly reduces the consumption patterns as well.

Are the handful of large submarines still in use? Even if they are much less frequent, every little bit helps.

 

[fester]

Are the handful of large submarines still in use? Even if they are much less frequent, every little bit helps.

Yep, 6 big US submarines are making a run on average once every 23-25 days a piece. Smaller submarines are only going in for special missions/emergency runs as they are better used at hunting shipping.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Hold it. Each MTB has ONE DAY's worth of food? So 4 making a run in only stretches things by a week?
Wow, that's expensive, in dollars, lives, and scarce military resources in theatre, for not a whole lot of actual gain.

So, if the 4 boats each make an average of three runs before the Japanese get them all, that's less than a month? And 3 runs seems optimistic to me. Once the Japanese catch on, it's going to be little better than a suicide run, IMO.

 

[Marquis]

Hold it. Each MTB has ONE DAY's worth of food? So 4 making a run in only stretches things by a week?
Wow, that's expensive, in dollars, lives, and scarce military resources in theatre, for not a whole lot of actual gain.

So, if the 4 boats each make an average of three runs before the Japanese get them all, that's less than a month? And 3 runs seems optimistic to me. Once the Japanese catch on, it's going to be little better than a suicide run, IMO.

Swap them out once in a while with Grey Goose or other coastal craft. A nasty surprise for the Japanese if they put some naval auxiliaries in place to catch them.

 

[Incognitia]

Something must be done.
This is something.
Therefore we'll do it.

Feels like a logic which can justify a lot more than 4 MTBs sent to Bataan, but it definitely covers that IMO.