John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu, fights for King Edward IV
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Do you write a tread on this subject? In the event that Anne Neville does not marry Edouard or that Margaret of Anjou cancels their marriage, this is a possibility but Edouard IV in the story? Charles of Burgundy is playing a dangerous game.
Yes, I but I think in this case Mary of Burgundy and Edward of Westminister will be a threat to Louis XI, if they inherit the Burgundian inheritance, he will pray that Charles has a son with his third wife.
I wrote another tread "A male heir for Charles the Bold" about the birth of a son in the marriage of Charles and Margaret of York.
So that reminds me. When Richard marrys the Courtney heiress does he get all the estates that belonged to 14th earl at his death or does he only get most of it? For that matter does John Neville get to keep his share of the Courtenay estates that he got when elevated to marquess of montagu? Estates which he received in compensation for having to give up the Northumberland title and estates when the Percys were being restored?
So sorry I couldn't answer before. I'm particularly busy at the moment.
To answer your question, Richard obtains all the properties of the 14th Earl of Devon, with the exception of Sutton Courtenay, which Walter Devereux, Baron Ferrers of Chartley, conserves through his marriage to Elisabeth Courtenay (born 1449), sister of John Courtenay. In the hope of regaining his place in the King's Council, George Neville, Bishop of Exeter, offered Woddesdon to Richard. Walter Blount, Lord Mountjoy (14 Aug 1467) and John Dynham, Lord of Dynham (9 Nov. 1469) reach a compromise. John Dynham becomes treasurer of Richard's house in Gloucester. All grants of Richard Milton (Nov. 11, 1469), John Couper (Nov. 18, 1469), John Shute, yeoman (Nov. 20, 1469) and John Lambard (April 9, 1470) are totally revoked. John Odeland (Nov. 19, 1468) and Hugh Hernage, Esq. (9 Dec. 1468) are offered financial compensation. Edward IV of England restored part of the Courtenay possessions, including Allhallows Goldsmith, Budlegh, Harecomb, Stuttecombe, Westcoker, Westmiddleton, on condition that Richard returned the Stewart Office of the Duchy of Lancaster and Richmond Castle to him and assigned it to his son, Edward (born in 1470).
Richard concludes contracts of indenture with Walter Teny, William Bourchier de Fitzwaren, John Courtenay, Esq., John Yeoman, John Bourchier and Ranfrid Arundell. He maintains the pension of £18.6s 8p for Thomas Courtenay, sheriff of Devon. He takes Topsham from John Wode, Esq. Henry, Earl of Essex, manages to reach an agreement to keep Woddesdon, during his lifetime, in exchange for an annuity that he will pay to his nephew.
On August 19, 1472, the Parliament reverses the atteinder of Henri Courtenay, who was recognized as the true Earl of Devon (Edward never recognize an adhesion of John Courtenay), the grant of John Neville (on 27 Feb 1470) is annulled. Chalvelegh, Cloyton, Colcombe, Colyford, Culme John, Fayreway, Musbury, Okehampton, Plympton and Hundred Plympton, Sampford Courtenay, Tiverton and Hundred Tyverton, Tregamur, Treveryn, Whyteford all belong to Richard. Dont forget that John inherites the properties of his brother, Richard Neville, including the Earldom of Warwick and the castles. A nice struggle is coming up with George of Clarence. John serves in the North as warden of the western march at Carlisle Castle.
Wait how? The kingmaker only got the beachump and despensper inheritances by being married to the heiress of both families the 16th countess of Warwick. John has no claim to that. That and the more modest but still significant Salisbury inheritance should go the kingmakers daughters and there husbands because those inheritances can travel in the female line in the absence of a son.
The only thing John could inherit is the traditional Neville patrimony which is entailed completely on the male line.
Excuse me because I misspoke!
All of Warwick's inheritance will be divided between Isabel and Anne and their uncle.
Edward had no confidence in George to give him the most important castles, such as Middleham which is nicknamed the "Windsor of the North" as well as the related charges. He will be too afraid of a plot between the ever-dissatisfied George of Clarence and King James III of Scotland. No more being at the mercy of a capricious magnate, especially on the Scottish border. The influence and power from which Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, benefited during the 1460s is no longer acceptable from Edward's point of view. It is clear that a storm will be in the air when George discovers that he will not have anything of the Courtenay heritage because Richard will marry Joan Courtenay. The hurricane is likely to intensify when Edward decides on his arbitration over Warwick's estates.
On the other hand, can Edward trust Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland, to marry Anne Neville? Or would it be better to marry her to Thomas Grey, Lord Astley, his stepson ?
The Neville estates were settled in the male line, the properties Warwick held in right of his wife (the Beauchamp and Despencer estates) would on his death firstly revert to his widow (to be enjoyed by her second husband if she remarried for her lifetime and would devolve on her heirs at her death - her daughter's Isabel and Anne if she failed to have a male heir by a second husband).
In OTL the Countess of Warwick lived well into old age - she had nothing to offer a second husband so never remarried as she was stripped of her rights by a dubious Act of Parliament to ensure Edward IV's brothers were endowed at the expense of their mother in law. She is probably too old to produce any more children but non the less her legal rights to her family inheritance (which would not be affected by an Act of Attainder against her husband) would mean she not her daughter's would hold all the Warwick and Despencer lands - apart from what she chose to remit to her daughter's on their marriages.
The Salisbury inheritance may well have been settled in a different way but depends on what arrangements the Salisbury's made during their lifetime - there are surviving male heirs (John Neville and George Neville Archbishop of York) - a male heir usually trumped a female - although the inheritance descended through a woman. The lands could have been entailed by Warwick's parents for example.
Is unlikely who John Neville can have the Salisbury's inheritance over his nieces as that lands were able to pass on the female line together with the title... The King will need to choice how divide them between Isabel and Anne (and their husbands)...
Considering the trust who Edward has in George already before the mess with the the Kingmaker and Edward of Westminster Anne Neville’s husband would have Middleham. About the Beauchamp and Despenser’s estates I was thinking maybe Anne Beauchamp can remarry to one of Elizabeth Woodwille’s brothers or her younger son if the King trust them, while Thomas Grey can stay married to a surviving Anne Holland and Anne Neville can marry Henry Percy
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If Anne Beauchamp could marry Anthony Woodville, Earl of Rivers, after his wife's death in 1473. Wasn't she too old for Anthony, born in 1440? Richard Woodville (born in 1450) is too young for her.
The average age of menopause in the Middle Ages is about 37-38 years. There have been a few isolated cases where women gave birth late until the age of 40 (Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Devon and mother of Joan Courtenay) or even at the age of 42 (Philippa de Lancastre, Queen of Portugal and daughter of John of Ghent). At the time of Elizabeth Scales' death, Anne will be 47 years old. Anthony will have no children with her. I imagine Anne Beauchamp's second husband hopes to have children.
Otherwise he will enjoy part of her wealth.
It is relatively odd that the Woodville male's were pretty unconcerned about the long term survival of their family - Anthony was childless by both his wives (and his first might have been a bit older than him), John married the elder Dowager of Norfolk (which might have been to mutual advantage wealthy widows often had trouble holding their hands from children and grandchildren desperate for their inheritance - Dorset's son was for example livid his wealthy mother remarried after his father's death), Edward and Richard probably suffered the effects of Richard's usurpation preventing advantageous matches - though again Richard made no great efforts to marry before his death as the last male member of the family quite happy to leave his estates to his nephew Dorset (who should really have only been a co-heir).
The 1st Earl and his wife made little efforts to convert her dower lands into lands they could entail to their heirs - so perhaps the lack of a major male line estate (and their fall from prestige after Edward IV's death) might explain their lack of interest in continuing their line.
Exactly. The 1465 wedding between the 19 years old John Woodwille and the 65 years old Catherine Neville, Dowager Duchess of Norfolk was quite a scandal but I can not see why a wedding in 1472 between the 22 years old Richard Woodwille and the 46 Anne Beauchamp is unlikely to happen if the King think he can trust Richard with Anne’s lands? Or a wedding in 1473 between the 47 Anne and the 33 Antony? OTL he needed to divide the lands between his brothers, here Richard is married elsewhere, George betrayed him more than once and can not be trusted so Anne’s land have zero reason for being included in the division of the Kingmaker’s inheritance and the King will need to give Middleham to Anne Neville’s new husband (is Percy, right?) because Clarence can not be trusted with that castle... Marrying off Anne Beauchamp and her lands will only help Edward with the division of the rest...
I fear who Jaquetta and her second husband had very little chance to do anything with her dower lands..
Actually it depends entirely on if Alice Montacute and her husband entailed her estates to their heirs - it also depends on how their marriage contract was written (which might have specified that her inheritance was to pass to her heirs male and in default to her heirs female ) - a strong male relative with the King's ear might trump the claim of his nieces.
More importantly Edward could simply have Warwick attainted and take the lot for himself (minus the despencer and beauchamp lands held by his widow) and re grant them where he wished.
In this scenario - you have George chasing his mother in law to ensure she doesn't a) remarry or b) remit her holdings to anyone other than himself as her powerful son in law, Anne Neville as her mother's co-heir is a slightly more attractive proposal for anyone who fancies trying.
Edward IV's arrangements in these matters effectively set up powerful loyal peers in areas of the realm that traditionally often harboured rebellion to offer security - Richard in the North (where traditionally power was split between the Salisbury Neville's, the Westmorland Nevilles, and the Percy family), Prince of Wales' Council in Wales led by Anthony Woodville (replacing the dead Earl of Pembroke, and reducing the minor Duke of Buckingham whose power lay in the Anglo Welsh border), Dorset in the South West (although his family lands were in the Midlands mainly though most were still in his grandmother's possession - his marriage to Cecily Bonville and the guarantee of the Holland inheritance through Anne St Leger for his heir meant his largest wealth would be in the South West), Hastings and Clarence (through the Warwick inheritance in the Midlands) etc - The future marriage of his son to the Norfolk heiress suggests that in the future his second son would wield power and influence in East Anglia.
Replacing the above is not that difficult but it has to make political sense for the King.
You also have to deal with the potential clashes - Richard will have an interest in who marries Cecily Bonville (she had holdings in the West Country - and Yorkshire, Cumberland, Lancashire and Lincolnshire) as her husband would wield power in an area of his interest the South West (but that would be workable - he managed pretty good relationships with power rivals in the North) - Cecily is a major catch and would suspect Dorset would be very keen on the match (though he's still Huntingdon in your timeline) - also Hastings is her step father and John Neville is her uncle who will also have a strong view on who she marries - Anthony Woodville, Thomas Grey, Richard Grey, Edward Woodville are all possibles in this scenario - she was only 14 when she married Dorset in otl.
Anne Beauchamp in OTL was determined and dogged in her fury at the disposal of her estates to the King's brother's - she was still petitioning the crown on Henry VII's accession - I doubt she will roll over again - and in this scenario she might be allowed to keep hold (to keep Clarence in check) if her younger daughter marries then the King might act as in OTL to divide up the inheritance.
Also in the scenario the Holland estate is up for grabs - Assuming Anne of York marries and produces a second daughter - that child is going to be in demand too.]
Well about Dorset and the Holland estate I suggested to have Anne Holland aka Dorset’s first wife surviving... An Anne Neville remarried and not to Richard of Gloucester will make possible a second wedding for her mother as Anne Beauchamp’s new husband will hold her lands instead of one of her son-in-law and with George being so trustworthy and the need to not give too much power to Percy that can be a good solution...
So John Neville is going to get the estates he was already heir to? I mean if he wasn’t attained he was almost certainly going to get the traditional Neville estates, which included middleham, no questions about that. What about the Courtenay estates he received when made marquess of montagu? He got those as compensation for giving up his percy estates when the family was being rehabilitated. Does he now lose those too? And if he does is he going to be recompensated for that?
Wait what happened to John Neville? He should be the one who gets middleham as that’s the traditional seat of the Neville’s in Yorkshire. Your basically just overcharged Percy power in the north right off the bat if Anne is married off to Henry Percy with middleham as her inheritance. I’m not sure any northern baron in otl has had as much power as the person that somehow combines the Percy and Salisbury Neville estates.
Oh, well I thinked who Middleham was not the seat of the Neville family but came to the Kingmaker from his mother or wife so was destined to the husband of either Isabella or Anne and so can go only to Anne’s husband as Edward will never give it to George if he has another option but if Middleham can be legitimately assigned to John Neville then he will have it from Edward as that is the best solution.
Middleham was part of the estate of the Earl's of Westmorland - it was the part transferred to Joan Beaufort by her husband and therefore passed to the younger line of the Neville family - Warwick inherited from his father - on his death it would legally pass to the next male heir John Neville.
The only way John does not get the Neville lands in the north (almost all of the estates were in north Yorkshire and County Durham) is if his brother was attainted and the King chose not to grant the lands to John.
The Salisbury lands were largely in Hampshire and Wiltshire I believe.
The only way John does not get the Neville lands in the north (almost all of the estates were in north Yorkshire and County Durham) is if his brother was attainted and the King chose not to grant the lands to John.
The Salisbury lands were largely in Hampshire and Wiltshire I believe.