John Neville, 1st Marquis of Montagu, fights for King Edward IV

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by lolotte34, Jun 16, 2018.

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  1. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Same reason as all French boys were Charles or Louis with a dash of Philippes in between :winkytongue:
     
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  2. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Ergo why I'm naming everyone Richard in my TL...
     
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  3. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    So they're all Dicks? :winkytongue:
     
  4. Philippe le Bel Le Roi de Fer, Roi Très Chrétien Banned

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    Too much dick for my taste, but she forces me x'Dx'Dx'D
     
  5. lolotte34 York retainer

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    I admit that my writing is not yet at that point in the rewriting of Richard's biography. In our OTL, most of the nobles deserted Richard's side because of his coup d'état, the unknown fate of the Princes of the Tower and his alleged intentions to marry Elizabeth of York. In my personal opinion, this tale is an invention of Tudor propaganda to tarnish his reputation further, but also a fear of Catesby and Radcliff because they would have to return the land that was confiscated from the Woodvilles. Richard planned to send Sir Edward Brampton and an embassy to Lisbon to negotiate a very quick marriage with Joan of Portugal. Unfortunately, the negotiations have been prolonged and all of us know the outcome of the Battle of Bosworth.

    As Richard has established his leadership in West England and South Wales, he is a member of the Council of Marches. He frequented the members (Rivers, Vaughan and Richard Grey) of the household of the young Prince Edward (future King Edward V) and even to forge affection with him.
    I'm thinking of a compromise between Richard and the Woodville clan, for the one and only reason that Richard is making the same journey as Anthony Woodville. So Elizabeth does not lock herself in the sanctuary when she learns of the executions of her brother and her son.

    An article by Amy Licence, dated on August 31, 2013, explains in a medical way the events of 1483: Richard III of England was allergic to strawberries. According to Michael Hicks' article and his books, this meeting was the point where the crisis broke out. Richard's interpretation of witchcraft led him to react with a level of violence that turned a tense situation into a crisis. Because of his body's anaphylactic shock to strawberries, Richard really thought he was a victim of witchcraft and acted accordingly. Hastings was also sleeping with Jane Shore, mistress of the Marquis de Dorset who was Elisabeth Woodville's son. By expension, Richard must have thought Hastings was working with the Woodvilles.

    To comfort Richard about his allergy crisis, I thought of a butterfly effect... Joan lives in an area where strawberries are best grown. She will have already been a spectator of this type of reaction. She calms Richard's fears by explaining that strawberries can be poisonous or beneficial (see article "There's more to wild strawberries than meets the eye") for some people. She then discovers her husband's scoliosis and supports him. In the Middle Ages, scoliosis was considered a deviance of the soul. The couple's confidence was strengthened and Richard relied more on his wife's advice than on that of those who had every interest in seeing the Woodville family fall into disgrace (Henri Stafford, Duke of Buckingham with his rebellion in october) or the fall of York (Thomas Stanley with his trahison on the battlefield).

    The summer crisis of the year 1483 did not happen and Hastings survived. King Edward V's regency was established without too many clashes and Henri Tudor had insufficient support to invade England during the summer of 1485. His mother try to negotiate his return and a marriage with the little nobility to prove his loyalty with the York.
     
  6. lolotte34 York retainer

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    Thank you for your comment, I will choose the Neville-Dorset match.
     
  7. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thoughts about Dickon having an allergy to strawberries. But do we have any corroborative sources that AREN'T More about Richard requesting strawberries? More's pretty anti-Richard so I'd regard it with suspicion. OTOH it wouldn't be the the first time that history turns on a dime like this.

    I personally don't believe when Richard set out from the north that he had plans to become king. However as the situation unfolded he became convinced it was the only option. If he had an averse reaction to strawberries it convinced him that they were trying to kill him to get him out of the way.
     
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  8. lolotte34 York retainer

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    I agree with you. I also don't think Richard considered becoming king when he left his castle of Middleham.

    Thomas More wrote in Morton's words. But John Rous glorified Richard during his lifetime and violently criticized him under the reign of Henry VII. More's work were polemical during his lifetime. He wrote the "History of King Richard the Third" in 1513 where Henry VIII had already acceded to the throne. This work is a criticism of tyranny, with the background of Richard's adhesion to the throne. As Amy License said in her article, his behaviour after ingesting strawberries coincides with a strawberry allergy. Let's give Thomas More the benefit of the doubt. Richard truly believed that Hastings was trying to kill him.
     
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  9. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    And of course the fact that Hastings was loyal to Edward IV/V (rather than the Wydevilles) didn't help matters at all.

    I'd love to see a TL where Edward V ascends, but dies of natural causes (maybe one of those falls down the stairs @desmirelle likes) and an honest-to-god Richard of Shrewsbury (not that is he, isn't he Perkin Warbeck) becomes King Richard III. Much as the Tudors got me interested in this period in English history, the house (and century) that came before them is far more interesting.
     
  10. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Wait, was Richard III killed by strawberries now???? *suspicious glance* I knew there were a reason I disliked those funny things....
     
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  11. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Ya'll keep forgetting that I killed Henry VIII by having him thrown ass over teakettle by a horse. That's way more likely than a trip down the stairs for active young men.:evilsmile: I like it way better than the stairs.
     
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  12. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Maybe he sticks his pecker somewhere it shouldn't be and the girl's fiancé/father/brother/husband takes offense at this... especially if the stories that Edward IV would bed anything that moved (apparently he wasn't particularly fussed about male or female either) are true - or ends up getting some really nasty STD from the encounter (I didn't say she was a virgin now did I :eek:).
     
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  13. lolotte34 York retainer

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    In my storyline, Edward V is crowned. For most of his other children, Edward IV negotiated a prestigious marriage for his eldest son and, in 1480, entered into an alliance with the Duke of Brittany, Francis II, whereby Prince Edward was betrothed to the duke's four-year-old heir, Anne. The two were to be married upon their majority, and the devolution of Brittany would have been given to the second child to be born, the first becoming Prince of Wales. Through diplomatic pressure and the harassment of piracy in the English Channel, Francis II sends his daughter to England where the marriage is celebrated with King Edward V.
    but Edouard died suddenly in August 1484 of osteomyelitis (in reference, to the skeleton, found under the stairs).

    I wish Richard of Gloucester would become king, without a clash. According to the article "Richard III: A Hero Slandered by Shakespeare", Richard III was an innovative king of England. Something that was not appreciated under the Tudor reign. Some of his legal reforms continued long after his death, some of which are still enshrined in our laws today.

    For his coronation, I chose August 22, 1485, date of his death... a little "fuck" (excuse me for) to his fate and the Tudor of OTL.
     
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  14. lolotte34 York retainer

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    Richard III had a strawberry allergy but died fighting Henry VII at the Battle of Bosworth.
     
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  15. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know that he was not killed by berries, just making a joke. But if would have made him the only king ever to die from strawberries!
     
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  16. calvin1417 Well-Known Member

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    Weren’t the raby and middlham branch kind of on the outs with each other since most of the 1st earl of Westmorland lands went to his sons by Joan Beaufort instead of the grandson he shared with his first wife? I guess it’s a decent peace offering to reunite the branch’s of the family(it also comes with the bonus that since the montagu and Beauchamp lands that Anne would inherit are all in the south Westmorland will now have to focus on those area giving lord montagu one less rival in the north)
    I’m not sure Percy would be willing cede any land in the north since well it’s the traditional Percy powerbase. Hell I find it more likely he’ll get rid of the more extraneous holding in Anne inheritance to consolidate his northern holdings(that seem to have been his general modus operandi as earl of Northumberland. Sell or trade really extraneous holdings to acquire more northern lands while also trying get all the attainder the family had acquired reversed so all the land that used to belong to them are restored. That and fight off his distance relatives for his mother’s own significant southern inheritance.) while keeping the rest of it part of the southern Percy lands that are mostly used as by them as a source of easy cash. Hell given he surely has a lot more southern land he’s willing to part with then in otl I could see him trying to buy out a few minor northern lords in there entirety.

    Also what happens when clareance falls? Does Anne get the whole of Beauchamp and montagu inheritances? Also wouldn’t he have more of a rivalry with montagu compared to otl Gloucester? I mean he’s the one married to a Neville heiress now and he probably doesn’t particularly like montagu after he stole his ancestral lands. Maybe he’ll scheme to try to do the same with montagu? In any case I wonder what happens in the north when Richard does his thing and Henry Tudor comes a knocking?
    Sorry I’m so late but the Percy finance at the time were pretty ok. I mean he had a really large amount of people on retainer as was expected for a northern lord in a time of civil strife. But he still was in the top five on the English aristocracy in terms on income behind only the the dukes at the time. Sure there was debt but it was much better then in his father day. His family was in fact able to dish out a thousand pounds for his funeral and his executors were able to spend 4000 marks to marry off his daughter to the Duke of Buckingham. Neither of those two things were able to slow down his son who was famously called the magnificent earl but still died very much solvent with not particularly heavy debts for a landed magnate(most borrowing was in fact short term expedients only done when he needed some ready cash and instantly paid when the rents came in).

    Also very much agree that if Northumberland becomes brother in laws with Clarence the only thing he has to do is wait
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  17. lolotte34 York retainer

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    Because John Neville has joined Edward IV, Anne is not a very attractive heiress. She inherits only half of her mother's inheritance. So the question of getting her well married is not a very major problem as our OTL. She can also be married to an obscure retainer without ambition.

    Afterwards, I admit that a marriage with Percy seduces me a lot.
     
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  18. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    I think that a Percy-Neville marriage sounds good as well.
     
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  19. calvin1417 Well-Known Member

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    Actually she is a very attractive heiress even without the traditional Neville northern patrimony. The earldom of Salisbury was about 750 pounds in income but the real treasure was the combined Beauchamp-despencer inheritance worth about 4000 pounds per annum.
     
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  20. lolotte34 York retainer

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    Thank you for your comment.
    In our OTL, Richard married Anne because she brought him half of Neville's and Beauchamp-Despencer's inheritance. If I am not mistaken, the earldom of Salisbury is held by Anne's uncle.
    In my storyline, the support of John Neville for the York cause shakes Richard's perspectives in the North. Anne is no longer only interested in her that she brings him only half of the Beauchamp-Despencer heritage. But you have to admit that this share is still comfortable. According to the converter of the website "A national archives", these revenues amounted to approximately £1,371,589.20.
    Sorry for the confusion or inappropriate choice of words.

    Joan Courtenay is the co-heiress of her brothers, and Richard can as well claim the inheritance of the Beauforts by Joan's mother (Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Devon) but I must verify the existence of male heirs except Charles Somerset.
    In our OTL, his birthright was completely ignored and Edward IV distributed the Courtenay lands to the people he pleased - mostly to John Neville, Marquis of Montagu in 1470, then to George of Clarence in August 1471. Henry VII restored the Courtenays but Powerdeham's Courtenay line was favoured as Edward Courtenay (d.1509) served as a messenger during his conspiracy and fought for him at the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485.

    Only the interest of Richard for Joan Courtenay gives her importance. She claims a right to her inheritance that has been unfairly contested.
    But the only problem: I can't find anything on the Web about the monetary value of the Courtenay heritage. Only around 1440-1450, his income of £1500 p.a. was lower than that of most nobles of comparable rank. After her advantageous marriage to Margaret Beaufort, Courtenay was granted an annuity of £100 for his services.

    Through the Calendar of patent rolls of Edward IV from 1461-1466 then 1467-1477, I drew up the extent of their lands. Two days of work ! If you have any details on the subject... I'm interested.
     
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