Ah the treasury the one enemy the Royal Navy has never truly been able to defeat only drive back for periods of time
HMS EAGLE in the Falklands
- Thread starter flasheart
- Start date
Excellent chapter there @flasheart really was unwinnable for the invaders.
How do the casualty lists compare to OTL for both sides?
How do the casualty lists compare to OTL for both sides?
And so the battle for the Falklands ends in the only way it was really going to end with the defeat of the Argentine garrison though the junta in Argentina obviously doesn't see it that way - even though they're living in clown cuckoo land about the whole thing even after the annihilation of their navy and the virtual obliteration of their air force in this ill-advised endeavor against a far more powerful nation.
Of course the military still has a battle to fight with the treasury whose previous spending plans have been blasted out of the water by this conflict. That being said the treasury has to realize that it cannot be too awkward and not be seen to be supporting the military who have just won this battle for Britain otherwise the public will not be very forgiving in the next general election.
Of course the military still has a battle to fight with the treasury whose previous spending plans have been blasted out of the water by this conflict. That being said the treasury has to realize that it cannot be too awkward and not be seen to be supporting the military who have just won this battle for Britain otherwise the public will not be very forgiving in the next general election.
SsgtC
Banned
I'm thinking that, at the least, Eagle gets a thorough overhaul to keep her in service while plans for two new CATOBAR carriers are drawn up. Probably something Forestall sized. With the UK either joining in on Hornet development or potentially inquiring about buying F-14D Tomcats. My gut says they go with F/A-18s
Yeah 18's or the Rafale. The Tomcat is a bit big for what we can build, very expensive and its also an older design. Absent the failed 90's upgrade (because I doubt this will butterfly the end of the cold war much) its rapidly heading towards obsolescence by 1995 so go with the more modern plane. Also while not as good a fighter the various marks of hornet and super hornet are effective attack planes killing two birds with one stone.
Also there really needs to be an effort to work with others on the new carrier design. Get the French, Italians, Australian's (assuming abandoning Melbourne replacement is butterflied) and maybe the Indians on board and you could both share and cut costs.
By itself the UK would likely build two carriers at most. However if the French buy two, Italy, Australia, India (and maybe Spain) buy one each that's at least seven and some savings by pooling info and mass production.
SsgtC
Banned
You can try getting others involved, but it's invariably going to break down. The French will insist on nuclear power, while none of the other nations will want that (or be capable of operating a Nuke carrier). The Italians and Spanish will want a much smaller ship than the 55-70k ton suppercarrier that the UK and France want. And Australia will probably still only be interested in the purchase of Invincible absent a clear threat in their region.
In the end, it's still going to be just two carriers getting built for the UK. Best to just design the thing from the start to British requirements and make it known that you're willing to sell a copy to friendly nations (i.e. France, Spain, Italy, Australia).
I agree, Tomcats are ridiculously expensive. But that's also likely to be what the RN wants to replace it's Phantoms. They've just gotten a very clear lesson on the importance of a fleet defense interceptor and will want the best. ITTL, I could actually see more -14Ds being procured by the USN and maybe the proposed Super Tomcat later on. So I could definitely see the Royal Navy's preferred option being Tomcats. What the treasury will actually pay for however is a whole other story. We might see them elect to overhaul their Phantom fleet instead and keep flying those for a longer period as a "cost saving measure."
When there is the political/public will there is always a way to find the money for example the whole we want 8 capital ships this year and won't wait of the Anglo-German naval arms race.
Based on OTL where the treasury didn't even replace HERMES after the war and which was only kept around until after the 1983 election a replacement for EAGLE might still be elusive. Perhaps a pair 40,000 ton STOVL carriers with Harriers and later P. 1216. ARK ROYAL is sold to Australia leaving INVINCIBLE and ILLUSTRIOUS in the LPH and ASW role
Remember, this is before the split between Typhoon and Rafale - which was largely but not exclusively driven by the fact that the French wanted a carrier-capable aircraft.
If the RN want a carrier capable aircraft, then the Treasury are going to tell them that they need to share it with the RAF. That means either the RAF buy Tomcats as well (not ASB but very unlikely to be allowed - they wanted it instead of Tornado F.3 in OTL) or the UK stays on the Rafale track and the Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. end up with a smaller aircraft looking rather like a cross between Gripen and F-16.
No chance - the French can just about afford a real carrier, nobody else can at this point. That means three hulls if you're lucky, possibly two.
The politics/funding is probably impossible, but what about a purchase of USS Forrestal? She was due to enter an expensive SLEP rebuild with her becoming a training carrier a couple cruises afterward.
Reagan might go for it if the sale allowed congress to speed up the build schedule for the Nimitz class.
I’m sure UK purchasing Forrestal with a more austere rebuild is totally a no-go from the Treasury, but that’s the fun of ATL.
Reagan might go for it if the sale allowed congress to speed up the build schedule for the Nimitz class.
I’m sure UK purchasing Forrestal with a more austere rebuild is totally a no-go from the Treasury, but that’s the fun of ATL.
A Super carrier takes up way to much manpower for the Royal Navy to man both it and the rest of the fleet.
Yeah... I doubt modern public would fork over the money needed to buy CV(s) plus escorts, even with the goodwill the RN is gaining in this scenario...
Even without the crew or money issues, an old and worn-out carrier is not an appealing prospect.
I think that what really killed French membership of the Eurofighter project was French insistence on Dassault having design authority and Snecma providing the engine. They might have been willing to give up one, but not both and there was no chance of the British allowing either.
This would be an ideal opportunity for France and the UK to save some money by collaborating on a Queen Elizabeth Class-sized carrier to replace Eagle, Clemenceau and Foch while also collaborating the Germany, Italy and Spain on a carrier capable fighter. Of course, neither of those will come off.
The RN IF it had got a CTOL carrier (a mark 2 CVA01 as it were), by say 1988/89 then it undoubtedly would have been Hornets all round. Rafael and Typhoon are too far away, Tomcat just isn’t happening, reconditioned Phantoms would also be likely but not for long and two carriers is probably the limit. So my guess is 75-90 Hornets (probably all in D model, possibly with Sea Vixen radar to anglicise it). You’d probably have one full airgroup with 28 Hornets, 4 E2, half dozen Sea Kings and that’s your lot, plus one OCS with say 18 aircraft and a HQ and development squadron with another dozen Hornets forming an effective emergency second air wing. All those other Hornets are maintenance reserve and so on. Ideally the RN would also gain three dozen Hawk 100/T45 hybrids, ten Hawkeyes and lots of other goodies but unlikely.
Not a chance. They'd be designing an entirely new carrier since that would give the Treasury the most opportunities to kill it. If it Eagle's replacement enters service at all then I think that the earliest that you're looking at is the mid to late 90's.
Weird possibility: how about simply buying the plans of the french Clemenceau class? Then alter them to fit UK electronics, other gear and self defense weapons? It's a post war design, it's not an "expensive monster US design" and would massively shorten the development costs and time...