Who knows we might see a epic naval battle.

Epic in terms of its one - sidedness, yes. If the RN's assets are deployed and utilised as they should be, it'll be such a roflstomp (roflsplosh?), it won't even be funny.

The vast reach of Eagle's air group renders the FAA & ARA impotent. By the time of the landings, I'd be amazed if either service has anything left with which to fight.
 

Deleted member 2186

Epic in terms of its one - sidedness, yes. If the RN's assets are deployed and utilised as they should be, it'll be such a roflstomp (roflsplosh?), it won't even be funny.

The vast reach of Eagle's air group renders the FAA & ARA impotent. By the time of the landings, I'd be amazed if either service has anything left with which to fight.
You mean ARA General Belgrano and ARA Veinticinco de Mayo and their escorts have no change against the Royal Navy.
 
You mean ARA General Belgrano and ARA Veinticinco de Mayo and their escorts have no change against the Royal Navy.

Precisely.

Both will be stalked by SSN, & if the weather is suitable for carrier ops, VdM will be sending suicidal Skyhawks in to the maw of a Phantom based CAP. And both vessels will be vulnerable to Buccaneer strike, too.

Simply in having Eagle present, the RN can operate on whatever terms they like - including keeping their ships clear of airborne strike from the mainland until such time as losses become crippling for the Argentine forces.
 
OTL the UK government decided not to strike at the Argentinian mainland[1] to emphasise that the Task Force was there to re-take British territory, not because it wanted war with Argentina. I don't think Eagle would change this, so strikes on mainland airbases would be implausible imo.
However, the junta didn't know that at the time, so the Argentine Navy being ordered to sortie in force to deal with the increased threat is plausible, leading to the inevitable sinking of more of their ships. If ARA Veinticinco de Mayo looks like being a threat, I suspect HMS Splendid would do to her what HMS Conqueror did OTL to ARA General Belgrano.

[1] the SAS were probably there, but mostly for reconnaissance, or so the stories go
 
OTL the UK government decided not to strike at the Argentinian mainland[1] to emphasise that the Task Force was there to re-take British territory, not because it wanted war with Argentina. I don't think Eagle would change this, so strikes on mainland airbases would be implausible imo.
However, the junta didn't know that at the time, so the Argentine Navy being ordered to sortie in force to deal with the increased threat is plausible, leading to the inevitable sinking of more of their ships. If ARA Veinticinco de Mayo looks like being a threat, I suspect HMS Splendid would do to her what HMS Conqueror did OTL to ARA General Belgrano.

[1] the SAS were probably there, but mostly for reconnaissance, or so the stories go
I'm thinking that if the RN had a credible ability to deliver laser guided bombs against targets on the mainland that a strike against the super entendard base would likely have been seriously considered (if not actually carried out) once the Sheffield was hit.

This seems a better option to me than dropping dumb bombs from Vulcans or landing the SAS via C130.
 
a strike against the super entendard base would likely have been seriously considered (if not actually carried out) once the Sheffield was hit
Possible, but personally I don't think so (even IF the Sheffield were hit, which is less likely ITTL) - however, that's only my opinion.
 
I guess what we have to consider is:what credible options were there to strike the Argentine mainland in OTL? How does that differ ITTL? Are the increased military and political gains worth the increased risk?
 
Who knows we might see a epic naval battle.

Don't now if this works but here's a segment of a timeline about the HMS Eagle in the Falklands which I replied to another post called "WI 3rd Audacious class built?"


1982 April Falklands War (ref my reply No 48 on this thread)


Task Force sent to retake the islands, with Eagle at the heart of the fleet, Ark Royal re-comissioned and work done around the clock to make her ready to join the rest of the fleet down south. Despite the best efforts of the dockyard staff, she enters the Total Exclusion Zone two weeks after the conflict ends to replace Eagle on station.


1982 June Falklands War ends


Britain comes out of the conflict victorious after the Eagles air complement, with help from the onboard Gannet AEW's first get air superiority then supremacy over the FAA. Both the Belgrano & 25 de Mayo are torpedoed after a tip off from Eagles Gannets aircraft on recce to the subs in the area, it was then followed by a "Bucc" strike on their escorts with great loss of life and thus removing Exocet threat when their Dassault Etendards go down with the carrier. A "Bucc" strike on Stanley airfield with all 14 aircraft decimates the airstrip and it becomes totally inoperative. After 2 Hercules transport aircraft are shot down on consecutive nights after trying to ferry in supplies, they are discontinued, leaving the defenders without resupply, 1 Type 21 ship lost to bombing in San Carlos on the first day of the landings due to their not being enough Phantoms to deal with the mass attacks on the landing area, the Type 21 was lost due to a faulty seeker head lock of their Sidewinder missiles after being launched by the pair of Phantoms that patrolled their assigned area. Argie Airforce takes a pounding and looses 4 in 5 aircraft on the 21st of May and thus is liquidated as a fighting force. After this Phantoms are flown with Scimitars for extra air cover

Regards filer
 
I guess what we have to consider is:what credible options were there to strike the Argentine mainland in OTL? How does that differ ITTL? Are the increased military and political gains worth the increased risk?

Well, part of the motivation behind the Black Buck raids was as a demonstration that if they wanted to, the Vulcans could hit the Argentinian mainland. That’s one option.
 
I guess what we have to consider is:what credible options were there to strike the Argentine mainland in OTL? How does that differ ITTL? Are the increased military and political gains worth the increased risk?

Vulcan strikes against the mainland were the only (militarily) viable option OTL.

ITTL, Trelew, Comodoro Rivadavia, San Julian Rio Gallegos & Rio Grande all become viable targets for low - level strike by Buccaneers with Phantoms flying top cover - with Eagle (and, one presumes, the bulk of the fleet) beyond reach of anything launched from all of said airfields. Even without AAR, the Buccaneers have more than sufficient range to achieve this, and the FG.1 in 'Charlie Fit' + with centreline tank likely has, too. Buccaneers are also available for tanking, should the need arise, and CAP can still be maintained, also. A 'four plus four' strike package should mess each target up nicely and also deal with any defending assets, such as may be drawn out.
 
Well, part of the motivation behind the Black Buck raids was as a demonstration that if they wanted to, the Vulcans could hit the Argentinian mainland. That’s one option.

Could also be said the RAF wanted to show they were around as well, after all the RAF Harrier GR.3's were a bit overshadowed by the FAA Sea Harriers.
 
Could also be said the RAF wanted to show they were around as well, after all the RAF Harrier GR.3's were a bit overshadowed by the FAA Sea Harriers.

Don't think so, the GR.3's weren't even in theatre at the time of the first Vulcan raids.
 

Riain

Banned
I think the biggest impact the Eagle's Buccaneers will have is to conduct an actual bombing campaign in the islands. IOTL apart from some deliberate Sea Harrier strikes on Port Stanley and Goose Green airfields most bombing sorties when the carriers arrived in the TEZ were armed recon; Sea Harriers would do CAP over the islands with a 1000lb bomb on the centreline and drop it on targets of opportunity, most often on the Port Stanley runway. This is obviously not to best way to attrit the enemy on the ground, but given the RN only had 20 jets at the time and had to maintain a CAP its about the best they could do.

With a dozen or more Buccaneers solely dedicated to bombing and ordnance in the Eagles magazine for each to do 4 primary missions before needing replenishment and a photo recon capability with a bomb-bay pack with 6 cameras 809 sqn could conduct a methodical campaign to find and destroy all sorts of military targets from unit HQs to artillery batteries and supply dumps. IOTL the CBG arrived in the TEZ 3 weeks before the Amphibious group, if this schedule is similar ITTL 809 sqn could conduct over 200 bombing sorties between arrival and D-Day, without any letting up of offensive and defensive CAPs undertaken by Phantoms and Sea Harriers as well as 809s other sorties such as photo-recon and tanking.

Given the size of Argentine forces in the Falklands I imagine 809 sqn will have to conduct several squadron level attacks against such targets at Port Stanley, Goose Green and Pebble Island airfields. Other targets such artillery batteries, HQs, helicopter parks etc could be attacked by flights and pairs, meaning 809 sqn could lay on 3-5 bombing missions a day for several weeks. I imagine such a campaign would get some artillery, helicopters, supply dumps, unit HQs and would make the land fighting that much easier.
 
The Islands
15th April

As the phantom came to a halt on the runway of wideawake airfield the pilot and navigator breathed a sigh of relief. The pilot silently thanked god foe delivering them from their perilous situation, the navigator silently cursed god for imperilling them in the first place. Due to the lack of nearby friendly airbases throughout most of HMS EAGLE’s transit south so far the senior air officers onboard had decided that it would be wise to wait until the ship was close to Ascension Island before starting the night flying phase of the work up.
As these experienced airmen were well aware landing a fast jet on a pitching and rolling flight deck at night was by far one of the most difficult and harrowing aspects of a naval aviator’s job. It was well known that during the Vietnam war the US navy had fitted various body sensors to frontline pilots to test stress levels during missions. It had been discovered that the most stressful part of any combat mission wasn’t the bombing run, being engaged by enemy fighters, taking flak damage or even being locked up by enemy SAM’s. By far and away pilots stress levels were at their highest when they attempted to return to their carriers and land at night.
The naval aviator community at the time questioned the need for a such a test when they already knew perfectly well what the results were going to be.
However, night landings were a vital skill that could very well save an aircrews life (If it didn’t itself kill them that is) and so were now being practised rigorously now that there was a diversion airfield.

As he taxied his aircraft of the runway and onto a surprisingly busy airfield the pilot replayed in his mind the sequence of events that had led to his being here. The catapult launch in the fading light of dusk had gone as well as any of the countless others he had done. His four-ship formation had then proceeded to practise close formation flying at night. Though none of the aircraft flying with him were equipped with “buddy packs” they had also practised the manoeuvres necessary for in flight refuelling. Then came the dreaded night time recovery. As one of the pilots in the squadron who Commander Ward had marked down as needing particular attention owing to his lack of recent time operating his aircraft from a carrier he lined up to make the first approach in order to carry out a “Touch and go” to help build his confidence. On his first go flyco informed him that he had overshot the arrestor wire by a few feet. Following this the first of his wingmen landed. He then lined up for another practise approach and landing. This time his nerves got the better of him and aborted with only seconds to go. In the time it took him to go around his second wingman landed. As they say third time lucky and he was informed that on this approach he had hit the mark and with fuel one everyone’s mind the next approach would be with his tail hook down.
Then disaster had struck, the light indicating that his tail hook was deployed hadn’t come on. He tried again and nothing. Third time lucky? Not this time. With obvious concern creeping into his voice he reported his situation to flyco and requested his remaining wingman to conduct a visual inspection. In the darkness of the night the wingman reported that he was unable to see anything clearly.
This presented the Airboss onboard EAGLE with a difficult decision. They could attempt to recover the aircraft using the crash barrier (A steel net strung out across the deck to stop an aircraft) this would have the unfortunate consequence of considerably damaging the aircraft and if things went really badly the risk of deck fire. They could have the pilot make for the airfield on Ascension Island though there were questions over whether he would be able to make it with his remaining fuel. They discussed the possibility of launching another aircraft in mid air but concluded that they just didn’t have the time. Finally they could order the crew to ditch as close as possible to the task group and hope that they could be rescued by the SAR helicopter before they succumbed to hypothermia.
In the end Captain Slater made the decision. The unfortunate pilot would be going to Ascension. While the risk to the crew was regrettable there it really was the only viable option. Slater was fully aware of how vital his ship and her air group were to the entire endeavour. He could not risk damaging his ship or any of the numerous aircraft parked on the flight deck for the sake of one. At the same time he couldn’t justify ordering one of his precious Phantoms to ditch when there was still a chance that it might be saved. He ordered a signal sent to Wideawake airfield to appraise them of the situation.

As the pilot headed towards Ascension he was both relived and amazed to be intercepted by another Phantom, this one sporting RAF markings. Maintaining visual and voice contact the RAF aircraft escorted the FAA Phantom to Wideawake ready to report their position and give live updates in the event that the FAA fuel state forced it to ditch. The RN pilots already strained nerves were calmed somewhat by the message that a SAR helicopter had been scrambled from Ascension and was standing by. Thankfully none of that had proved necessary and as the pilot and navigator climbed out of their cockpit and felt the comforting feeling of solid ground beneath their feet they took a moment to observe their rather surreal surroundings.

To them this airfield had always been thought of as some far flung bygone relic. They’d even joked that the only reason this place hadn’t been closed down yet was because it was so small and obscure that it had literally not been slipped between the lines on the various MOD asset lists and had thus never been noticed by the writers of successive defence reviews. Yet now it was one of the busiest airfields any of them could remember having seen. They had been parked with a flight of 6 RAF Phantoms of 29 squadron seemingly here to provide local air defence. The fact that at over 3700 miles away from the Falklands it was extremely unlikely that there could be any air threat from Argentina seemingly didn’t register with the RAF personnel who gave the impression of not wanting to feel left out.
The rest of the airfield was packed with Nimrod Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Hercules Transports, for some reason a pair Vulcan Bombers, a seemingly endless line of Victor tankers and most curiously of all dwarfing every other aircraft present stood an enormous USAF Lockheed C5 Galaxy strategic transport. Even more curiously to the pilot the American ground crew seemed to be unloading pallets full of what he recognised as AIM-9 Sidewinder air to air missiles. He knew full well that the magazines on both HMS EAGLE and HMS INVINCIBLE were already fully stocked with these missiles and surely such a large quantity couldn’t all be for the 6 RAF Phantoms on the airfield. The navigator however who had more of an eye for these things recognised these missiles as the latest AIM-9L version. A considerable improvement over the ones they currently had. A slight grin crept across his face, he knew why the Americans had come here.

The next morning with RAF engineers still trying to determine the cause of the fault with their aircraft the pilot and navigator with little else to do decided to go for a wander. The navigator would later go on to write a book about his experiences in the campaign. In it he described his impression of not only Wideawake airfield but Ascension Island in general as the kind of absolute but well organised chaos that one only sees in a largescale military evolution. The island was essentially an almost completely barren rock in the middle of the ocean. This meant that fresh water was extremely limited. The crew observed that the population of the military establishment was being capped with one man seemingly being flown off the island for every one that arrived.
They wondered why exactly the Vulcan’s were there as their presence clearly added immense pressure to the islands infrastructure. From what they picked through talking to various RAF types the large number of Victor’s present were there purely to support the Vulcan’s for something being called Black Buck.
Clearly this was some kind of long ranged mission but the what could be the purpose of such a mission that could justify all this effort? The Vulcan’s were currently used for maritime patrol but what was the point in bringing them here when they had numerous and frankly superior Nimrod’s available? If it was for some sort of strike then what could they realistically hope to achieve that EAGLE’s Buccaneer’s couldn’t manage? The fact that it had been years since Vulcan squadrons had practised conventional bombing made this last option the most unlikely in their minds. They had both been in the military long enough to know that the most tantalising questions were often the ones that you probably shouldn’t ask.

By the morning of the 17th the aircraft was once again serviceable but would not be going anywhere just yet. The carrier battle group and the majority of the amphibious group had arrived at Ascension and were anchored just offshore. Therefore, the Phantom and its crew wouldn’t be reembarking on EAGLE until she sailed again. While the fleet made for an awe-inspiring sight and a number of iconic photographs in his book the navigator described that as the point where all hell broke loose.
In the rush to assemble the task force equipment had been loaded onto whichever ship had space with little thought to given to its ultimate destination. Now the horizon was crammed full of helicopters and landing craft as the massive and unenviable task of locating and redistributing all this equipment began. At the same time the Royal Marines began to practise amphibious landings and set up an improvised range to zero their rifles.
In the middle of all this the pilot and navigator found themselves with little to do except top up their tan. One issue on their mind however was the need to obtain a fresh set of flying clothing. They had been wearing the same flying suits since they climbed into their aircraft nearly 2 days previously! Efforts to convince the Army radio tent to send radio EAGLE to send a bag over on the next helo flight proved fruitless as the radio operators were already extremely overworked. Attempts to convince the RAF radio operators in the air traffic control centre merely resulted in both men being forcefully advised to leave. In the end they were able to convince one of the American airmen to secure a handwritten note to one of the pallets of updated Sidewinders that were being ferried to the carriers by the Sea King HC.4’s off of HMS HERMES. Just over an hour later they were happy to see a returning Sea King carrying an underslung load that consisting of the expected pallet of older Sidewinders but also a duffel bag attached to the pallet. After literally snatching it from a slightly confused RAF cargo movement specialist the pilot and navigator were overjoyed to find two fresh and clean flight suits. This joy however was short lived when they read the accompanying note. It was the expected stuff about how happy everyone was that they were ok but also an alarming ward room bill with their names on it. It seemed that their brother officers had been somewhat taking advantage of their unexpected absence.



Port Stanley, Falkland Islands

Brigadier General Mario Menendez was the Argentine military governor of the Malvinas and theoretically the most senior commander of all Argentine forces on the islands. However, he kept finding himself having to compete with the Navy and Air Force for dominance. It irritated him that he was having to spend more and more time playing politics with both Buenos Aries and the senior representatives of the other services at the expense of his mission to safeguard the Falklands. Even more annoying was the command structure on the islands in which his role as governor was more of an administrative role separate from the operational chain of command. The two brigadiers who commanded the Argentine army units on the islands though theoretically subordinate to him in his role as governor both had seniority in rank to him and an annoying habit of treating his orders as suggestions.
Despite all this they had managed to come up with what they felt would be an effective defensive plan. The only settlement of any significance was the islands capital Port Stanley, a port protected by various mountains to the west and south. Given that this town was effectively the islands centre of gravity in many ways and also home to vast majority of the population it made sense that the British would base their entire campaign on capturing it. Menendez had studied amphibious operations mostly based upon the US Marine Corps doctrine and experience. He knew that USMC doctrine called for a landing as close as possible to the main objective in order to ensure that the defenders had the least time possible to react and that the attackers had the shortest possible supply lines. It made sense to him that the British would likely adopt a similar strategy. Therefore, the Argentine army units had been deployed along the coasts and heights with the aim of protecting Stanley. A large garrison had been positioned at the natural choke point at Goose Green and smaller company and battalion sized units spread out across the islands. One area of concern was the quality of the soldiers that he had to work with.
High Command were concerned about the possibility of a Chilean attack due to the ongoing Beagle Channel dispute. The better units made up of professional soldiers including the mountain warfare regiments, the paratrooper brigade and the majority of the marine infantry units had been kept behind on the mainland and deployed along the Chilean border. With the exception of the Marine units that had been allocated to the Malvinas the Argentine infantry were made up of conscripts mostly from the sub-tropical regions of Argentina. These men had been trained how to avoid heatstroke and snakebites not how to avoid frostbite or the importance of staying dry. Worse some of his conscripts had only been in the army for three months. Efforts had been made to negate this by recalling and deploying conscripts from the cohort of conscripts that had been at the end of their service and in the process of being discharged, though this wouldn’t be much of an improvement. Therefore, Menendez had issued instructions to his officers and NCO’s instructing them to whip their men into shape for what may come. Some however took the wording of this order quite literally.

Of course, as high command kept telling him if the planned joint air force and navy operation worked his troops wouldn’t need to fire a shot. To support this the runway at Port Stanley airport was being lengthened and the facilities upgraded. Menendez was keen to get some fighters based there in order to provide his forces with some air cover. The air force had already been flying in aircraft that had a rough landing capability, mostly Pucara ground attack aircraft. They had also established two other small landing strips at Goose Green and Pebble Island. If the did land these aircraft would be tasked with providing close air support to the army. The napalm they had started stockpiling would make the Pucara’s much more effective in this role. Depending on how quickly the British arrived it was possible that Port Stanley airport may not yet be ready to host the desired squadrons of Mirages but would still be useful as a staging post for aircraft deployed from mainland air bases.

Faced with a NATO powers carrier battlegroup the Argentines were aware that their best chance lay in being able to strike first and strike hard.
 
Just leave this here

That's from Sailor a "fly on the wall" documentary series that was first broadcast on Thursday nights on BBC1 from August to October 1976. I should know because I was allowed to stay up late to watch it. IIRC it went out after the Nine O'clock News.

The theme tune was Sailing by Rod Stewart. Unfortunately that was deleted from the DVD and replaced by the Band of the Royal Marines version for copyright reasons (according to Wikipaedia).
 
Top