Omg, a perhaps surviving house of Avis?? I might even forgive you for having a 13 year old father Henry.
Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings
- Thread starter Cate13
- Start date
Interesting idea, but I actually have something different planned for Brittany as a whole
Section Six - Early 1510s
“Towards the end of 1511, Ferdinand II of Aragon would present Queen Catherine and King II Henry with a set of demands. The demands would be refused, and Spanish troops would march on Navarre. There would be a series of skirmished between the forces of Navarre, led by the young King Henry II and the Spanish forces, led by Fernando Álvarez de Toledo over the next several years. The war, named The War for the Soul of Navarre by dramatic historians, would cumulate in the Battle of Donibane Garazi where King Henry II would decimate the Spanish forces leading to a retreat and peace talks.
It is said that the peace talks went exceptionally quick because King Henry II remarked that they did not wish to make him miss the birth of his son. The Treaty of Iruñea would be composed in record time and ratified by the Cortes of Navarre where the pro-Spanish Beaumont party had shrunk significantly over the past few years. And King Henry II would indeed make it back to Queen Catherine’s side for the birth of their third son, Prince Charles Tudor.”
“The marriage of King James VI and Margaret Tudor took a great hit at the death of their son Prince James at age three in 1510 only a short time after the stillbirth of Prince Arthur Stewart. The Queen Margaret was said to be despondent and required a visit from her mother Queen Elizabeth before returning to court life. Shortly after Queen Elizabeth’s departure back to England, Queen Margaret would fall pregnant for the third time. King James VI and Queen Margaret would name their third child for the son they recently lost. Prince James Stewart, future King of Scotland would be born early in 1512. It would be the only time in his long life he would not be overshadowed by his yet unborn younger brother.”
It is said that the peace talks went exceptionally quick because King Henry II remarked that they did not wish to make him miss the birth of his son. The Treaty of Iruñea would be composed in record time and ratified by the Cortes of Navarre where the pro-Spanish Beaumont party had shrunk significantly over the past few years. And King Henry II would indeed make it back to Queen Catherine’s side for the birth of their third son, Prince Charles Tudor.”
Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father”
“The marriage of King James VI and Margaret Tudor took a great hit at the death of their son Prince James at age three in 1510 only a short time after the stillbirth of Prince Arthur Stewart. The Queen Margaret was said to be despondent and required a visit from her mother Queen Elizabeth before returning to court life. Shortly after Queen Elizabeth’s departure back to England, Queen Margaret would fall pregnant for the third time. King James VI and Queen Margaret would name their third child for the son they recently lost. Prince James Stewart, future King of Scotland would be born early in 1512. It would be the only time in his long life he would not be overshadowed by his yet unborn younger brother.”
Paisley Jones, “Alexander Stewart, Was It All True?”
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Just what religious views might these be in the early 1500s/1510s? It's worth noting that Henry VIII OTL was given the title of "Most Christian King" by the pope for a paper defending the pope against Luther.
Since Henry has had a different set of experiences, he had a difference opinion about religion. While he has really done anything yet about it, his family is aware of his opinions, cause let’s be honest, there isn’t a version of Henry VIII that can keep his opinions to himself. And Catherine isn’t happy with her brother in laws beliefs.
Hey, do you know a place I could research pietism? When I check all I could find was post reformation/17th century stuff. And pre reformation relious feeling is definitely something I should brush up on.
Pre-Reformation it would've probably termed "mysticism" (but I'm just guessing) not Pietism. But even so, I don't see Henry going all John Wesley/Friedrich Schleiermacher and founding his own church (in a country that's not even his, mind you) if he has a son. He's interested in theology in the same way most princes of his day were, he's not (however much Hal might've liked to think so) a theologian.
This Henry has had rather different life experiences than OTL Henry VIII, so his motivation to explore reform are different, not motivated by a need for an heir, and the way he explores reform is going to be different. He won’t be starting his own church, but he does share OTL Henry’s belief that’s he’s always right which means when people disagree with his new religious beliefs he just digs in his heals.
Section Seven - 1517
“Queen Catherine of Navarre would pass away early in the year 1517, leaving her eldest son Prince Henri Tudor as King Henri III Tudor of Navarre. Prince Henry Tudor, never to be called King again in his lifetime, [1] would be named regent for his thirteen-year-old son.
The regency of King Henri III was one of the smoothest regencies of European history. Father and son worked in tandem to coordinate the ruling of Navarre. Several diplomats recorded that it was impossible to play the King against his father. The two refused to commit to anything without consulting the other and would never contradict the other in public.”
[1] Henry Tudor would not be granted his title of King Father, the counterpart to Queen Mother, by his grandson King Henri IV Tudor until several decades after his death.
“It was during the regency of King Henri III that the religious attitudes of Prince Henry began to be known throughout Europe. Prince Henry’s opinions were already known to his family, we have a letter from Princess Catherine to her father-in-law about Prince Henry’s owning a Wycliffe Bible. But, shortly after Martin Luthor nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg, Prince Henry Tudor released Ut Legitur in Verbis Dei(“May We Read God’s Words”) in Latin, English, French, and Basque.”
“While we don’t have all the communications between Pope Leo X and Prince Henry Tudor, several letters have survived. They paint a picture of Prince Henry’s enthusiasm for the vernacular bible and then his confusion and frustration when the pope did not share his enthusiasm. It is perhaps after the realization that the church would not support his undertaking that Prince Henry first began his break from the Catholic Church.”
“To say Europe was surprised would be understating it. Prince Henry was from a very devote family, his sister Queen Maria of Portugal was especially known for her devotion, and here he was speaking out against the common belief that the bible should remain in latin. The modern equivalent would be if President-Elect Trump announced that he was actually a Democrat and planning on banning guns.”
“.. one might think the Tudor Prince is a madman (which Tudor Prince you might ask, my dear? You should know there is only ever one Tudor Prince) but having read his work, I must say he writes with conviction and fervor not often found in holy word.”
The regency of King Henri III was one of the smoothest regencies of European history. Father and son worked in tandem to coordinate the ruling of Navarre. Several diplomats recorded that it was impossible to play the King against his father. The two refused to commit to anything without consulting the other and would never contradict the other in public.”
Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father”
[1] Henry Tudor would not be granted his title of King Father, the counterpart to Queen Mother, by his grandson King Henri IV Tudor until several decades after his death.
“It was during the regency of King Henri III that the religious attitudes of Prince Henry began to be known throughout Europe. Prince Henry’s opinions were already known to his family, we have a letter from Princess Catherine to her father-in-law about Prince Henry’s owning a Wycliffe Bible. But, shortly after Martin Luthor nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg, Prince Henry Tudor released Ut Legitur in Verbis Dei(“May We Read God’s Words”) in Latin, English, French, and Basque.”
Isaac Laab, “Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings”
“While we don’t have all the communications between Pope Leo X and Prince Henry Tudor, several letters have survived. They paint a picture of Prince Henry’s enthusiasm for the vernacular bible and then his confusion and frustration when the pope did not share his enthusiasm. It is perhaps after the realization that the church would not support his undertaking that Prince Henry first began his break from the Catholic Church.”
Vanessa Corey, “The Tudor Bible, Translation and Conception”
“To say Europe was surprised would be understating it. Prince Henry was from a very devote family, his sister Queen Maria of Portugal was especially known for her devotion, and here he was speaking out against the common belief that the bible should remain in latin. The modern equivalent would be if President-Elect Trump announced that he was actually a Democrat and planning on banning guns.”
Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”
“.. one might think the Tudor Prince is a madman (which Tudor Prince you might ask, my dear? You should know there is only ever one Tudor Prince) but having read his work, I must say he writes with conviction and fervor not often found in holy word.”
Part of a letter found in the possession of Princess Marguerite de d’Angouleme
Why do I get the feeling that Henry will soon enjoy a solitary life locked up in castle, curtesy of his son?
Btw how many children did Henry and Catherine have? Just one, Henri, or more?
Btw how many children did Henry and Catherine have? Just one, Henri, or more?
Reactions will be in the next section.
Henry and Catherine had three boys: Henri, Francis, and Charles. There were also a couple miscarriages and a stillbirth, but I couldn't work that in without it feeling superfluous.
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I think Anne of Navarre would have married Louis XII instead of Mary Tudor marrying the king..Mary Tudor would marry Charles V..
I'm assuming the Henry mentioned is OTL Henry VIII, and this Maria is his the OTL duchess of Suffolk (Mary Tudor), right? How'd she wind up as queen of Portugal? Wasn't she engaged to Karl V before Louis XII married her?
So, I'm not really sure which Anne of Navarre and Mary Tudor you mean cause there are two of each in this timeline. But I'll cover all four just to be sure.
The elder Anne of Navarre, daughter of Queen Catherine and King John III, died young in this TL. The younger Anne Tudor of Navarre also died young. So, neither of them are available to marry Louis XII.
With Mary Tudor, the elder Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of King Henry VII and Queen Elizabeth, OTL was married to Louis XII. But in this timeline, since King Henry VII lived longer, he arranged her marriage. So she married John III of Portugal instead.
The younger Mary Tudor, daughter of King Arthur and Queen Catherine, is currently betrothed to Ferdinand I, the younger brother of Charles V. This is because Charles V as the eldest and heir couldn't wait for Princess Mary to reach marrying age.
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You assume right
Since Henry VII lived longer in the OTL, he was responsible for arranging Mary Tudor's marriage. So, he ended up choosing Prince John of Portugal.Why would Henry VII allow for her to marry Joao? He's even younger than her OTL betrothed - Karl V - wouldn't it would make more sense if D. Manuel were to marry Mary as wife no. 3, Joao weds as OTL (maybe), and Eleonore of Austria weds the widowered Louis XII (as was originally planned OTL until Louis went with Mary instead).
And if Ferdinand of Austria is marrying the younger Mary Tudor, is Karl marrying Anna of Bohemia? Or is he still wedding Isabella of Portugal? If so, where's Anna going?
Since Henry VII was the ultimate skinflint he was motivated by the fact that the Portuguese would accept the cheapest dowery. Also, I wanted John III to have a wife he wasn't related to so that his kids were more likely to survive. I want the House of Avis to last longer than OTL.
In this timeline, Anne of Brittany lives just a little bit longer so Louis XII never gets around to remarrying.
Charles V still marries Isabella of Portugal. I don't know who Anna of Bohemia marries. I'm still working on figuring out how all the timeline ripples play out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devotio_Moderna
Maybe this is a good startpage?
You could also look for Wycliffe, but in OTL Henry in the beginning didn't like much of Wycliffes criticism on the wealth and rifuals of the church.
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