Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Cate13, Nov 4, 2018.

Loading...
  1. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    This wasn't the only grounds for which kings sued for annulments from Rome - divorce was a whole different ball game. See Louis XII and his first wife. Childlessness, consanguinity, etc, were all legal grounds IIRC. The dispensation for Richard III and Anne Neville (IIRC) granted them for marriage to a first cousin, despite the fact that already under canon law they were brother and sister(-in-law), so an annulment could be found on that technicality were they really of a mind to find one.
     
    Cate13 and The Professor like this.
  2. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Location:
    Collegium Vexillarum
    Thing is, a lot of nobles are going to think his brother is his heir anyway even if he co-crowns her like Henry II did his eldest.
    Even Victoria wasn't made PoW despite her being the only possible heir and precedent for Queens Regnant.
    Making her Prince of Wales just strains credibility for me.
    But it's your TL.
     
    Mark1878 and Cate13 like this.
  3. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Fair. I’m glad you put so much thought into reading this, it keeps me on my toes :)
     
    The Professor likes this.
  4. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Yeah, Arthur could have found one if he really wanted, but with the easy ones of childlessness and consanguinity ruled out and knowing how much a fight Catherine would put up he felt is would be trouble than it’s worth. Cause even if he divorces Catherine, he still has to find a new bride, marry her, and pop out a son. And he just didn’t think that would be likely to happen before he died.

    But, I get if it’s to much of a stretch for you. You can pretend it didn’t happen if you want, since she dies right before John is born, the point is a little moot.
     
  5. Threadmarks: Section Eight - late 1510s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “The Tudor family’s reactions to the antics of Prince Henry were myriad. King Henry VII would not comment one way or the other and Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales, followed his father example. A lady in Queen Margaret Tudor of Scotland reported that Margaret Tudor could care less about, in her words, her younger brother’s ‘antics.’ Queen Elizabeth, not known for having a political opinion, surprisingly requested a copy of her son’s work to read for herself. Though she did specify she would like a Latin copy.

    In contrast, Princess Catherine would quite vocally speak out against her brother-in-law and frequently requested and demanded that the betrothal between Prince Francis Tudor, only ten years old, and her eldest daughter sundered. When she was refused by both her husband and father-in-law, Princess Catherine would begin keeping the young Princess Mary away from Prince Francis. The young Prince Francis, recently made the Duke of Calais by his grandfather, is recorded to have spoke out against his aunt for maligning his father’s good name.

    Princess Mary Tudor, now known as Princess Maria of Portugal responded with a letter that has been lost to time and a vow to never speak of her brother again. She never did.”
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​


    “There was actually little to no repercussions, for this Prince Henry’s first foray into heresy. While the Pope wished to order consequences or sanctions, the truth was there was no one willing to face Navarre in battle. Spain was still smarting from their loss in the War for the Soul of Navarre; the King of France numbered Prince Henry among his closest friends; and several powerful Italian nobles, including Cesare Borgia who was currently in Navarre as the personal guest of Prince Henry, admired the fiery Prince.

    In the end, all the pope did was send a strongly worded letter. And while this may seem like no great hardship, it was actually a great struggle for Prince Henry. He saw himself as a good catholic and was greatly concerned that the Pope didn’t agree with him. But, he felt he had been inspired by God, and would not back down.”
    Isaac Laab, “Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings”​


    “At this point, Prince Henry viewed himself as a good catholic, just one that had a few problems with the Pope. But, Prince Henry was aware enough to know that the release of Ut Legitur in Verbis Dei may have lost him a few friends. So, Prince Henry went looking for new friends and found Frederick III.

    It is through conversing with Frederick III that Prince Henry found a bride for King Henry III. Frederick III’s niece, the eldest daughter of his brother John, was a year older than King Henry III. The publication of Ut Legitur in Verbis Dei caused a betrothal between King Henri III and Princess Louise of France to fall through, and the young king was in need of a bride.”
    Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father”​

    *OTL She was born a he and was Johann Frederick I, Elector of Saxony.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  6. Threadmarks: Section Nine - Early 1520s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “The relationship between Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales and Henry Tudor, Duke of York was a troubled one. During their childhood, Prince Arthur received the lion’s share of his father’s attention: in instruction in statecraft, in arranging betrothals, and in simple time. Prince Henry, in turn was the apple of his mother’s eye. It is thought that it was here that their troubles began.

    For many years it is thought than the root of their disagreements was the sudden disparity between their positions. It must have galled Prince Arthur to address his younger brother as a king while he was but his father’s heir.

    But, research indicates that it was actually envy not jealousy that drove the quarrels. Prince Henry would have three sons, healthy strong sons, by the time he was twenty years old. In comparison, Prince Arthur would take over ten years of marriage to have two daughters, both of which were delicate of health.”
    Tammie Waltherson, “For the Tudors’ It’s All About Family”​


    “King Henry VII Tudor, King of England and of France and Lord of Ireland, passed away in his sleep late in the year 1521. His eldest son, Arthur Tudor, was crowned King Arthur I with his wife Catherine of Aragon. Now Queen Catherine, would try to break the betrothal between Princess Margaret and Prince Francis. The argument is allegedly the only time King Arthur would raise his voice against his wife.

    Not only would King Arthur keep the betrothal, but he chose to move up the wedding so that Princess Margaret and Prince Francis would be appointed Princess and Prince of Wales together.

    In an effort to placate his wife, King Arthur reached out to her nephew, Charles V, about a betrothal between Princess Mary and himself.”
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​


    “It is believed that Prince Henry met the women who would be his second wife at the wedding of his son King Henri III Tudor to Princess Jeanne Sophie of Saxony. The Lady Anne Boleyn is not listed among the members of the French Court that attended the marriage, but it is shortly after the wedding that the first letter sent from Prince Henry to Lady Anne is dated.

    It is in a letter of Anne Boleyn, that we have the only account of the start of Prince Henry’s religious feelings. He recounts to Anne the loneliness and isolation that he felt as a young husband and father in Navarre, that he turned to the Word of God for comfort and guidance. And, he describes to Anne, while he found consolation in the Latin translation of the bible, he found greater consolation in the English Wycliffe Translation of the Bible. He knew that, in this land where none spoke his tongue, God spoke his language; he wasn’t alone.

    This chronicle must have resonated with Anne Boleyn, for the two would continue to write for several months. They spoke of their hopes for the vernacular bible just as much as their love for each other. It would be Anne, who would comfort Prince Henry as he expressed to her his concerns with defying the Pope. Then, several months later, instead of returning to England as her father wished, Anne Boleyn would head south to Navarre when she would marry Prince Henry Tudor.”
    Isaac Laab, “Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings”​


    “Even as the world reeled from Prince Henry’s revelation, he began to act on his beliefs. William Tyndale would take sanctuary in Navarre and began to translate the bible into English. The translation we know today as the Tudor Bible.”
    Vanessa Corey, “The Tudor Bible, Translation and Conception” ​
     
  7. AnnaRegina1507 Supporter of Queens Regnant

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2016
    Are the other Boleyns still reformers? In OTL they risked their lives smuggling and owning heritcal books, and were even describes as more “Lutheran than Luther himself”, so I assume they would still be?

    Is there any chance of Thomas Boleyn maybe becoming England’s ambassador to Navarre, or would that be conflict of interests with his daughter being the king’s step-mother?
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  8. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    They are still reformers, and they will be playing a part later in the timeline, though it will be a bit later.

    That's not something I'd considered before, I'll have to think about it.
     
    AnnaRegina1507 likes this.
  9. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Two things: Margaret can become Princess of Wales only if her father die before becoming King, and Ferdinand of Austria will marry someone different from Anna of Bohemia only if she die and in that case Hedwig of Poland (the daughter of Sigismund I by his first wife born in 1513) would be the most logical choice... so you need to kill off both of them for marrying Ferdinand to someone else and without marrying Anne and inhereiting Bohemia and Hungary he will not be a great catch (plus he will not be either the future emperor). And another reason for which Ferdinand is not an option is who Mary of England (both of them) is a Burgundian match (while Anna of Bohemia and Hungary or Hedwige of Poland would be an Austrian match and Isabella of Portugal a Spanish match) so only Charles would be interested in a English princess (and Ferdinand was bound to marry Anna by a treaty)
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  10. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    So the Margaret Princess of Wales debate takes up pretty much the whole of page 3. The conclusion was basically, I get why it seems impossible, I don’t think it’s to improbable, but I get if you don’t.

    On Ferdinand of Austria marriage situation, I was not aware that Ferdinand was bound by treaty to marry Anna. With college courses I don’t have enough time to do the research I want to. At this point I’ve got enough stuff written and plotted out I won’t be backtracking on Ferdinand and Mary’s marriage, sorry.

    I don’t think a not-king of Bohemia and Hungary Ferdinand would be a bad catch, he’s still a Habsburg and I could see Charles still making him King of the Romans (signifing him as successor for the Holy Roman Emperor) if only because Charles wants to retire before his son is old enough for the job. But I get that it’s a bit of a stretch.

    Thanks for putting so much thought into reading this :)
     
  11. Threadmarks: Section Ten - 1519 and 1520

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “Princess Mary Tudor, known to history as Queen Maria, would marry her boy-groom early in the year 1517. Their first child, Beatrice, would be born around Christmas that year. A second child, Maria, would follow two years later. Records indicate that Maria Tudor and her husband, Prince John were not close during these years.

    It was not until 1519, when both of their children fell sick and their eldest, Infanta Beatrice, passed away that the couple grew close. The young family would retire from court for several months, where Maria Tudor would come to care deeply for her husband.

    It was also here that Queen Maria would develop the strong religious feelings that would drive many of her actions for the rest of her life. Ironically, these feelings would be just as strong and the entirely the opposite of her brother, Prince Henry’s opinions.
    Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”​


    “Emilia Clarke has been cast as Princess Mary Tudor, in Tom Hooper’s “Mary and John.” She will be acting opposite Tom Holland as John and Rachel Weisz as Eleanor, John’s stepmother. Manuel I of Portugal has not yet been cast.”
    Casting Update ​


    “Ferdinand II of Aragon passed away in 1519 from what was probably pneumonia. This left his youngest son and only child with his second wife, Germaine of Foix, as King of Aragon. Ferdinand III Trastamara was but six years old. His father had left the ruling of Aragon in the hands of a regency council that excluded Queen Mother Germaine of Foix. The first order for the council was finding the young King a new betrothed. Ferdinand III having been betrothed to his great-niece Infanta Beatrice of Portugal since her birth. “
    Carolyn Masey “Ferdinand III the Old Didn’t Start That Way”​


    “King James IV of Scotland would die in an accident with his horse, in July of 1520. He would leave behind his widow, Queen Margaret, as regent for the now King James V Stewart, and Prince Alexander Stewart, the already notorious Duke of Rothesay.

    Queen Margaret wasn’t a popular regent, though it appears she handled the contending parties well. It was during this time that, Elizabeth York, Queen Mother of England, would spend considerable time in Scotland. It is believed that is was Elizabeth’s influence that curbed some of Queen Margaret’s more unwise impulses.”
    A. E. Bell, “The Early Tudor Years” ​


    “Prince Alexander, at only six years old, began his long career of overshadowing his elder brother at James V Stewart’s coronation. Young Prince Alexander managed to escape his minders and climbed the wall of the cathedral because, in his words, he wanted a better view. According to many reports, Prince Alexander reached some thirty feet up, and refused to come down. The eight-year-old King James apparently threw a temper tantrum in response to Prince Alexander’s antics. “
    Xander Tallmar, “Alexander Stewart, Was it All True?”​
     
  12. Threadmarks: Section Eleven - Early 1520s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “Princess Jeanne Tudor, eldest daughter of King Henri III Tudor and Queen Jeanne Sophie, was born late in the year 1521, only a few months before her eldest aunt, Lady Elizabeth Tudor, daughter of Prince Henry and Lady Anne. The two, would be extremely close all through their childhood.

    In England, the Princess and Prince of Wales would welcome their daughter only a year later. The young princess would be named for both her grandmothers, though she would spell it Kathryn throughout her life. Shortly after the birth of Princess Kathryn, Margaret Tudor, Princess of Wales, would pass away due to complications in childbirth.

    The country of England suffered a bit of whiplash, as Queen Catherine delivered a living son who was named John. (The name Henry she viewed with some suspicion, having buried four sons named Henry, and holding a great dislike for her brother-in-law Henry.)”
    Harper Wayne, “Keeping Up with The Tudors, Your Guide to Who’s Who” ​


    “The 1520’s were a quiet time for Tudor England. King Arthur I was a well-liked by many and handled the growing religious division with finesse. He would finally welcome a son in 1524. He would succeed in securing a betrothal between Princess Mary and Ferdinand I, recently named King of the Romans.

    While not Queen Catherine’s first choice, the current Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, she was very pleased. She saw it as a way to gain allies to help defend the rights of young John Tudor, the new Prince of Wales. Queen Catherine believed that Prince Henry would seek to elevate his granddaughter Princess Kathryn. This fear was fed by Prince Francis who kept his young daughter with him at court. This allowed courtiers to see the bright intelligent young princess. In contrast, Prince John was secluded, as Queen Catherine greatly feared for his health.”
    Melantha Jones, “1520s Tudor England, the Calm Before the Storm”​


    “Prince Francis is a devoted father. If he is not visiting the young Princess Kathrine, he will bring her to court. Carrying the young princess around. She is truly a charming child.”
    Letter from English Noblewomen to her family ​
     
  13. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Yay! Catherine finally got a son!
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  14. Threadmarks: Section Twelve - 1520s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “The nineteen years of King Arthur’s reign, nicknamed the Camelot Era, were one of the most peaceful periods for the Tudors. He ably kept peace between his reformist brother, moderating quite a bit of Prince Henry stronger Reformist tendencies, and his staunchly Catholic wife. He oversaw the marriage of his second daughter to Ferdinand I, King of the Romans. Under his rule, the relations between Scotland and England improved considerably, though that might have been more because of Queen Mother Elizabeth’s actions.

    The status of his heir, Prince John of Wales, was perhaps the source of greatest concern for King Arthur. Prince John was not quite as sickly as his mother feared, but he wasn’t of completely sound health either. What’s more, Queen Catherine had kept him rather isolated from dissenting views, which unfortunately was a significant fraction of the court.

    In contrast, Princess Katheryn practically grew up at court. Escorted to functions and parties by her father from a very young age, the entirety of the court knew and valued King Arthur’s only grandchild. While nothing overt seems to have been communicated, those with Reformist and Awakening views appear to have viewed Princess Katheryn as the preferred inheritor of the English Crown.”
    A. E. Bell, “The Early Tudor Years” ​


    “Though the quote has never been substantiated, Anne Boleyn, wife of Prince Henry, is perhaps most famous for saying, ‘They must read.’ This line became the tagline for the Awakening. And while this exact line is not found in any letters or journals of hers or those who knew her, in cannot be denied that Anne Boleyn, did in fact hold to the ideal that even the common people should read the bible in their native tongue.”
    Walter Owens, “Lovely, Lovely Anne”​
     
  15. Threadmarks: Section Thirteen - Early 1530s

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    “One of the darkest periods of Prince Henry’s life began in fifteen-thirty with the death of his second wife Anne Boleyn in childbirth. Prince Henry would retire from court to spend time with their three daughters: Elizabeth, Anne, and Eleanor. Then, a mere six months after the death of his second wife, his second daughter Anne Tudor, died at age seven from an unnamed childhood illness. Subsequently, in what must have seemed a perfect storm of loss, Prince Henry received word of the death of his beloved mother, Queen Elizabeth of York.

    While Prince Henry was a prolific writer, leaving behind letters, journals, and publications, we have almost nothing from Prince Henry from this time. In fact, we have only three records in Prince Henry’s own hand from this time: a letter to Prince Francis requesting news of Princess Kathryn, one page in a journal expressing his concerns over continuing to defy the pope, and a letter to William Tyndale about the progress of the translation of the English Bible.

    He left almost all his official duties to his three sons. In fact, the betrothal of Prince Charles Tudor to Lady Leonora Borgia, [1] was arranged by King Henri III. This would be the only one of Prince Henry’s children’s marriages that he would not arrange himself.

    This deep melancholy would last almost for several years and would take a war to bring Prince Henry out of it.”
    Isaac Laab, “Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings”​

    [1] Leonora Borgia is the second daughter of Cesare Borgia and Charlotte d’Albret, since Cesare Borgia didn’t die in 1507.


    “Conversely, Prince Henry absenting himself from the Court of Navarre in all probability was the making of King Henri III. For years, King Henri had depended upon his father for advice, guidance, and comfort. But, Prince Henry’s retreat left the twenty-six year old king space to grow and truly come into his own.

    During this time, King Henri strengthened ties with the Protestant German princes’ and the growing French Huguenot presence. He arranged the betrothal of his youngest brother and Leonora Borgia, known in Navarre as Lenore.

    While King Henri would always be his father’s favorite and perhaps the single closest relationship Prince Henry would ever have, certainly the longest lasting, never again would King Henri III Tudor depend quite so much on his father.”
    Patrick Wendal, “The First Navarrese Tudor King”​
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  16. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2018
    I love this timeline and the way it's written out of historian's writings. It looks so original, I don't think I've seen many Timelines done like this before. My only quibble is that I don't remember seeing Henry and Anne marry and now she's already dead! How did Anne make it to Navarre to be Henry's second wife and die without me noticing! (I'm usually eagle-eyed when it comes to anything remotely Henry/Anne related!)
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  17. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    I'm glad you like the style. The truth is I don't have time for a more filled out narrative, so this style allows me to hit some details and skip others.

    Anne and Henry's marriage is in Section Nine, she came with some of the French Court to King Henri's marriage and that's where they met.
     
    AngelQueen likes this.
  18. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Is it possible to make sure we know what year every post is about? Because I keep getting lost in the timeline. Are we in 1522 or 1536 now?

    Also is it just me or did Elizabeth of York and Henry VII live way to long? I would not have bet on either of them surviving further thatn 1510.
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  19. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2018
    I agree with you on Henry VII, but Elizabeth could have survived to the 1530s. Her grandmother lived to be 80, after all. If Elizabeth hadn't died of childbed fever with Princess Katherine, there's no telling how long she might have lived.
     
    Cate13 likes this.
  20. Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    So, I do jump around a bit. The last post was the early 1530s. I try and mention dates in the pseudo history quotes, but that's pretty easy to miss and so if people want I could include the general time period in the chapter title or something.

    So, Elizabeth lived longer cause Henry VII and her never tried for another child and Henry VII lived longer due to less stress: not loosing his wife and secure succession. Henry VII living till age 64 is a bit of a stretch but, we don't know how long his father would have lived since Edmund Tudor died of the bubonic plague and Margaret Beaufort lived till her sixties, so I don't think it's to much of a stretch.
     
Loading...