Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

[RamscoopRaider]

Oh dear.... Question: is this someone who was also scarred OTL?

Also, something else about the in-universe popular history: Britain is seen as a villain for going to war over a "scrap of paper" and making the European war a World one. But said "scrap of paper" was a defensive pact, so Britain is seen as a villain for honoring a prior agreement to defend Belgium from German aggression. Others have already noted a lot of somewhat-Kaiserboo "perhaps the Germans were closer to being the good guys in WW1" attitude in TTL so some of this might just be downplaying how cruel Germany was to the Belgians... but perhaps this is connected to a broader general distrust for Britain, and thus being unwilling to concede that this one time Britain was acting justly? I'm guessing they're going to do some sort of horrible colonial atrocity later.

Not gonna say

Britain is blamed but in the "you utter morons" sense rather than the "you evil bastards sense", the one time being Perfidious would have made things better for everyone involved and Albion does the honorable thing. I will admit that may not have come through in the way that was intended. This is also in large degree an artifact of events long after WWI is over, ask most people ITTL in the 20's or 30's and they will absolutely say Britain did the right thing by going to war over Belgium

Part of the thing is due to the destruction of records they don't know how bad Germany actually was in Belgium, they know the Entente claimed the Germans were the Huns reborn, and that a number of atrocities blamed on the Germans were fabricated, however later historians could not go back look through the records and say "yeah the Germans were horrible in Belgium, if not as horrible as Entente propaganda claimed". Of course saying more of why they think the way they do ITTL is major spoilers




Incidentally probably no update next week, they have me working Sunday, if I'm lucky I'll have Monday off to compensate and the update will only be late rather than gone

 

[Kylia]

Maybe if the peace on Germany isn't as harsh, the Nazis don't come to power? Or no other similarly extreme group. At least not in germany.

A woman can dream, but then there was that comment about the scarred guy.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Personally I think said scarred guy is a reference to Manfred von Richthofen.

 

[Kylia]

Would Richtofen be as bad as implied by the entry?

 

[Jim Smitty]

Would Richtofen be as bad as implied by the entry?

Its honestly unknown. I know that Richthofen is something of a trope in post-WWI Germany TLs here. I don't know if Ramscoop would go down that route or not, but that was my first thought.

The only other one I can possibly think of is Göring. Before his drug issues took over, he was a cunning bastard IMO. And he did help the Austrian Corporal make need connections in OTL.

 

[Prince Charon]

A plague a'both your houses...

The US stays out of the European theater for much longer than OTL? No just not committing troops, but no Lend-Lease too. Or trading equally with both sides.

Could also be a reference to the damage done by the Spanish Flu.

 

[cortz#9]

Personally I think said scarred guy is a reference to Manfred von Richthofen.

Would Richtofen be as bad as implied by the entry?

Its honestly unknown. I know that Richthofen is something of a trope in post-WWI Germany TLs here. I don't know if Ramscoop would go down that route or not, but that was my first thought.

The only other one I can possibly think of is Göring. Before his drug issues took over, he was a cunning bastard IMO. And he did help the Austrian Corporal make need connections in OTL.

I've read a lot of books about von Richthofen ever since I was a very young kid up to adulthood and I don't think he would ever come close to being as evil as Hitler or even Goring, he was an old school Prussian and he became very disillusioned about the war and blind patriotism in the last year of his life.

If he had lived I don't think he would have become a Nazi, he had at least two Jewish pilots in his squadron and they earned his respect and friendship plus I think he would've found the Nazis beneath him.
I also don't think he himself would have gone into politics but he might have supported a strong leader (other than Hitler) if one came along.

An interesting alternate German government IMO would be one formed by von Richthofen and von Vorbeck but I find that idea also unlikely.

 

[lukedalton]

Maybe if the peace on Germany isn't as harsh, the Nazis don't come to power? Or no other similarly extreme group. At least not in germany.

The only type of peace treaty that will give this is the one that permit Germany to not give up a single inch of territory, don't include military limitation and don't include reparation...so i doubt it

 

[Jim Smitty]

The only type of peace treaty that will give this is the one that permit Germany to not give up a single inch of territory, don't include military limitation and don't include reparation...so i doubt it

Given how the last update reads no one is a position to enforce this treaty as the US is noping out of this and France and Italy have hit their manpower walls. They both need to come home and start making babies. The British are nearly at this point as well. Plus the eastern nations want the Germans there.

So with that, I don't see the Danish getting Schleswig plebiscites. Memel most likely is staying with East Prussia as is Danzig. A-L is most likely going French through as the Germans admitted defeat. Eupen-Malmedy is going to be fun to watch.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Also I want to see what happens with the Ukraine ITL.

 

[lukedalton]

Given how the last update reads no one is a position to enforce this treaty as the US is noping out of this and France and Italy have hit their manpower walls. They both need to come home and start making babies. The British are nearly at this point as well. Plus the eastern nations want the Germans there.

So with that, I don't see the Danish getting Schleswig plebiscites. Memel most likely is staying with East Prussia as is Danzig. A-L is most likely going French through as the Germans admitted defeat. Eupen-Malmedy is going to be fun to watch.

It's not that Germany is in any shape to really resist even if whoever is in charge will try to bluff it and they are an hinch from a revolution regardless of the treaty signed

 

[ReconGuy02]

Also I want to see what happens with the Ukraine ITL.

Given that Germans held out until the summer 1919, I think that Skoropadsky managed to consolidate his rule and will likely preserve the existence of Ukraine as a state. It would be interesting to watch a weaker USSR here.

IOTL Skoropadsky lacked 3-4 months to completely consolidate and stabilize country for a bare minimum to keep it afloat, as he remarks in his memoirs.
ITTL, he had those 3-4 months. Most likely, anti-Hetmanate rebellion doesn't happen, as well as Proclamation of Federation with Russia doesn't happen too. This would mean that Ukrainian State survives. For now...

 

[Steelers94]

Also I want to see what happens with the Ukraine ITL.

Given that Germans held out until the summer 1919, I think that Skoropadsky managed to consolidate his rule and will likely preserve the existence of Ukraine as a state. It would be interesting to watch a weaker USSR here.

IOTL Skoropadsky lacked 3-4 months to completely consolidate and stabilize country for a bare minimum to keep it afloat, as he remarks in his memoirs.
ITTL, he had those 3-4 months. Most likely, anti-Hetmanate rebellion doesn't happen, as well as Proclamation of Federation with Russia doesn't happen too. This would mean that Ukrainian State survives. For now...

Honestly that just likely means a Ukranian-Soviet war instead of the Polish-Soviet one happening and I don't think Ukraine will get their own "Miracle on the Vistula".

 

[ReconGuy02]

Honestly that just likely means a Ukranian-Soviet war instead of the Polish-Soviet one happening and I don't think Ukraine will get their own "Miracle on the Vistula".

Entente and Poland will likely support Ukraine, especially if Skoropadsky agrees to relinquish claims on Galicia and hand over Volyn and Chelm for assistance in fighting Soviets. Most likely Soviets take some of Eastern Ukraine, but are stopped nearer to Dnieper, with rump Ukraine surviving.

 

[Kylia]

I can see Germany agreeing to some (smaller than OTL) reparations, as well as losing Alsace-Lorraine - but yea, there's not likely to be a Polish Corridor, or a lot of the other onerous terms that pissed Germany off. The Entente can't force the issue, so Germany has a better hand.

 

[lukedalton]

I can see Germany agreeing to some (smaller than OTL) reparations, as well as losing Alsace-Lorraine - but yea, there's not likely to be a Polish Corridor, or a lot of the other onerous terms that pissed Germany off. The Entente can't force the issue, so Germany has a better hand.

Really? Her economy it's on shambles, reparation or not as all the war expense were to be payed with the entente reparation and now all the people that had subscribed the loan have just some piece of paper, the political situation is hardly better and they are probably an hinch from a revolution; for a soldier staying in Poland will be probably fun like a tour in Iraq and while the baltic leadership want german troops the rest of the population can have a lot of different idea and while Ukraine leadership is more stable than OTL it's hardly safe. The fact about entente soldiers wanting to come back can be easily applied to her and continuing using the army for occupation duty will be neither easy or popular, not considering all the chaos in the former Hapsburg Empire that can easily spill up on her and the already troubled germans internal politics.

Not considering the Hipper last ride for the honor of the country will have not be very popular due to the uselessness and the asburd loss

 

[Kylia]

But as the timeline itself said, the Entente is in no condition to force the issue, which means Germany has a better hand at the negotiating table than OTL. In Versailles OTL, the Entente was perfectly willing to go back to war if Germany said no.

 

[lukedalton]

But as the timeline itself said, the Entente is in no condition to force the issue, which means Germany has a better hand at the negotiating table than OTL. In Versailles OTL, the Entente was perfectly willing to go back to war if Germany said no.

The entente can't force the issue but Germany can barely hold his prewar border due to internal mess, basically while Italy and France need troops to quell colonial rebellion, Germany need or will soon need troops internally and food and drugs of the hospitals so she also need a quick peace and that the rest of the world commerce with her...so yes she had a better hand but just a slightly better hand.

 

[Prince Charon]

The entente can't force the issue but Germany can barely hold his prewar border due to internal mess, basically while Italy and France need troops to quell colonial rebellion, Germany need or will soon need troops internally and food and drugs of the hospitals so she also need a quick peace and that the rest of the world commerce with her...so yes she had a better hand but just a slightly better hand.

I think the point is that Germany has enough of a better hand that the Treaty of Versailles here cannot plausibly be too close to as harsh to Germany as it was in our timeline.

 

[lukedalton]

I think the point is that Germany has enough of a better hand that the Treaty of Versailles here cannot plausibly be too close to as harsh to Germany as it was in our timeline.

Yeah, but it's more or less that the arm instead of being cut on the shoulder it will be cut on the elbow. Sure there will be less reparation ITTL...not that will make any difference from OTL and the Germany economy is devastated for the near future even if they don't ask a single penny.