I was wondering what a German military under an earlier (No 1945-1989 East Germany) Communist German government would be like? Uniforms, leadership, performance, equipment, tactics, doctrines, etc.
The big question too though is what kind of Communist Germany is it?
I see a several possible settings that would affect the German army.
One is a successful rather quick German Revolution in 1918 that sees the communists and socialists consolidating power without being overthrown and crippled by the reactionary forces. The second is a long brutal German civil war a la the Russian Civil War but the Leftists prevail in the end. The third is the communists winning the elections in the 1930s possibly due to Hitler butterflying away. Another is if the German military attempts a coup d'etat after the communists win the elections. And i'm sure there are dozens more possibilities
So yeah, because there's multiple possible conditions for an earlier communist Germany, I'll leave it up to you to choose which setting you'd like to hypothesize how a Communist German army would be like. Personally I think a Communist Germany via the German Revolution would be more interesting and open up more possibilities. Plus the communists and socialists weren't as authoritarian as Stalin and his communist puppets were.
My Thoughts?
Whew, sorry for that. Had nothing to work on at work today.
Would love to hear your thoughts!
Edit: Things I forgot:
The big question too though is what kind of Communist Germany is it?
I see a several possible settings that would affect the German army.
One is a successful rather quick German Revolution in 1918 that sees the communists and socialists consolidating power without being overthrown and crippled by the reactionary forces. The second is a long brutal German civil war a la the Russian Civil War but the Leftists prevail in the end. The third is the communists winning the elections in the 1930s possibly due to Hitler butterflying away. Another is if the German military attempts a coup d'etat after the communists win the elections. And i'm sure there are dozens more possibilities
So yeah, because there's multiple possible conditions for an earlier communist Germany, I'll leave it up to you to choose which setting you'd like to hypothesize how a Communist German army would be like. Personally I think a Communist Germany via the German Revolution would be more interesting and open up more possibilities. Plus the communists and socialists weren't as authoritarian as Stalin and his communist puppets were.
My Thoughts?
I would assume regardless of conditions, we'd see a lot of the German military staff resign and not take part under the new Communist German military as many senior officers seemed to be loyal and biased towards a conservative nationalist leaning.
I could see a lot of young German officers rising among the ranks just like the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War due to the many vacant positions. Also, I could possibly see German officers learning from and/or cooperating with the Bolshevik counterparts, which fought a very mobile form of warfare and resulted in Tukhachevsky developing the Deep Battle Doctrine. Speaking of the Soviets, I could see a German Red Army (VolksArmee?) cooperating with the Soviet Army which we actually saw the Reichswehr during the interwar period historically but of course on a bigger scale. Despite these possible developments and more junior officers rising among the ranks, I'm not sure if they would make up for the loss of the senior staff who had some incredibly talented members like Guderian or Manstein.
Uniforms I think they'll stick to the historical apparels: feldgrau, stahlhelms, etc. minus some of the flair to give a more 'people's army' vibe. I doubt they would radically change the look to look more like their Soviet counterparts. In fact I think with closer ties, the Soviet Army might slowly incorporate the German army aesthetics just like how we saw the German-trained elite Chinese divisions had German uniforms and gear in the Sino-Japanese War.
With technology, I am going to assume that without the business-friendly fascist Nazi regime and less war mongering that a lot of the well known industries that created the many Panzer designs and more are going to be less innovative and instead we'd see more 'Good Enough' designs and equipment. Not that 'Good Enough' weapons and vehicles were bad since we saw how versatile and mass produced the T34 and Shermans were and did their jobs well (most combat in general is between infantry and so these medium tanks were usually there to provide effective fire support and breakthrough rather than tank on tank combat which happened less frequently).
Training-wise, I actually see less emphasis on training under a communist government. While not as flippant and minimal as the Soviets were with their training, I think training would suffer and communist German personnel would be more or less as battle ready as their western counterparts.
Doctrine-wise, I think despite Germany possibly taking lessons from the Russian Civil War in regards to large scale mobile warfare, they probably would have taken a defensive posture with less emphasis on the offensive side. I don't think a Communist Germany (again, brought about by the German Revolution) would be interested in an offensive war or just war in general compared to Nazi Germany. Because of this and Western-Central Europe weren't as vast as it is in the east, the loss of the traditional Senior Staff (including Guderian who fostered combined arms), and Germany being surrounded by the Britain, France, Italy, and possibly its Central-Eastern European neighbors, I believe Germany would have stuck to a defensive doctrine. I have a feeling that a World War II between Communist Germany and Russia against the anti-communists would have resembled the slow sluggish trench warfare albeit perhaps a bit more mobile but no where as fast and mobile like OTL WWII.
Oh, and no I don't think a communist German army would have gone all 'Not One Step Backwards' human wave-y like the Soviets did in WWII. Not only because Germany had less manpower than the Soviets but because I would assume most Germans valued their soldiers a bit more than the Stalinist Russians did. It seems to me that if I could compare what the German doctrine would be like in Hearts of Iron IV terms, it probably would have more or less been the 'Grand Battle Plan' doctrine which arguably was an evolution of First World War tactics and strategies.
Lastly, how would they perform in a war? Supposing if the Allies (Britain, France, Italy, Poland, maybe the US) go to war with the Communists, I'm really unsure how it would go. On one hand, it seems that the German Red Army would suffer quite a lot from the absence of much of the senior leadership, the industries that helped create powerful vehicles and equipment for OTL's Wehrmacht, and the mobile fast hitting blitzkrieg/combined arms doctrine. On the other hand, I think one big bonus to Germany would be Russia as an ally. Unlike Italy, Japan, and the other axis members, the Soviets would add tens of millions of troops and huge amounts of resources and industry to help the Germans. ~20-30 million Soviets served in OTL WWII and the resources Stalin gave to the Germans early in WWII immensely helped Germany produce military equipment and gave the Germans food, fuel, and other essential supplies (which ironically helped the Germans use against the Soviets in Barbarossa). Imagine the latter but in the long term where Germany's resource issues in OTL were resolved thanks to friendly Soviet cooperation.
With that considered, I gotta say i'm 50/50 overall. The Soviets not only could make up for the deficiencies in the German Red Army but give its ally an immense advantage the Nazi Germans couldn't do: Outproduce (and outnumber) the Allies. On the other hand, it's possible that the US' entry into the war could give the Allies the upper hand as it would overall outproduce the communists and provide invaluable assistance to the Allies.
It's why it seems like the war goals would decide who'd win or lose the war. I doubt the communists would want to conquer all of Europe and then some like the Nazis. I think if the Communists started the war and went on the offensive, they would want to knock out France and the mainland European opposition and probably sue for peace and write up some compromise like Britain would keep certain colonies while releasing some of their colonies over time, France would have to do reparations and have its army crippled, same with Italy and the others or some peace deal that doesn't create too much revanchinism while planting the seeds for a leftist revolution one day.
If it's a defensive war, that the Allies decide to attack once they rearmed, then it would be a war where the Germans and Soviets would have to bleed the Allies white until they can pressure the Allies into some peace deal which would restore borders to normal supposing it's a stalemate. If the communists end up losing like WWI then I could see German return to a conservative/democratic state. And if the communists manage to turn the tide and push into the Allied territories, that probably would be the best case scenario because the Allies were the aggressors therefore with the Allies losing the public probably would turn on the government and possibly help foster revolutions and shift the countries leftwards... though of course it could go the other way where these leftists are crushed at home and fascism takes hold of Britain and America.
I could see a lot of young German officers rising among the ranks just like the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War due to the many vacant positions. Also, I could possibly see German officers learning from and/or cooperating with the Bolshevik counterparts, which fought a very mobile form of warfare and resulted in Tukhachevsky developing the Deep Battle Doctrine. Speaking of the Soviets, I could see a German Red Army (VolksArmee?) cooperating with the Soviet Army which we actually saw the Reichswehr during the interwar period historically but of course on a bigger scale. Despite these possible developments and more junior officers rising among the ranks, I'm not sure if they would make up for the loss of the senior staff who had some incredibly talented members like Guderian or Manstein.
Uniforms I think they'll stick to the historical apparels: feldgrau, stahlhelms, etc. minus some of the flair to give a more 'people's army' vibe. I doubt they would radically change the look to look more like their Soviet counterparts. In fact I think with closer ties, the Soviet Army might slowly incorporate the German army aesthetics just like how we saw the German-trained elite Chinese divisions had German uniforms and gear in the Sino-Japanese War.
With technology, I am going to assume that without the business-friendly fascist Nazi regime and less war mongering that a lot of the well known industries that created the many Panzer designs and more are going to be less innovative and instead we'd see more 'Good Enough' designs and equipment. Not that 'Good Enough' weapons and vehicles were bad since we saw how versatile and mass produced the T34 and Shermans were and did their jobs well (most combat in general is between infantry and so these medium tanks were usually there to provide effective fire support and breakthrough rather than tank on tank combat which happened less frequently).
Training-wise, I actually see less emphasis on training under a communist government. While not as flippant and minimal as the Soviets were with their training, I think training would suffer and communist German personnel would be more or less as battle ready as their western counterparts.
Doctrine-wise, I think despite Germany possibly taking lessons from the Russian Civil War in regards to large scale mobile warfare, they probably would have taken a defensive posture with less emphasis on the offensive side. I don't think a Communist Germany (again, brought about by the German Revolution) would be interested in an offensive war or just war in general compared to Nazi Germany. Because of this and Western-Central Europe weren't as vast as it is in the east, the loss of the traditional Senior Staff (including Guderian who fostered combined arms), and Germany being surrounded by the Britain, France, Italy, and possibly its Central-Eastern European neighbors, I believe Germany would have stuck to a defensive doctrine. I have a feeling that a World War II between Communist Germany and Russia against the anti-communists would have resembled the slow sluggish trench warfare albeit perhaps a bit more mobile but no where as fast and mobile like OTL WWII.
Oh, and no I don't think a communist German army would have gone all 'Not One Step Backwards' human wave-y like the Soviets did in WWII. Not only because Germany had less manpower than the Soviets but because I would assume most Germans valued their soldiers a bit more than the Stalinist Russians did. It seems to me that if I could compare what the German doctrine would be like in Hearts of Iron IV terms, it probably would have more or less been the 'Grand Battle Plan' doctrine which arguably was an evolution of First World War tactics and strategies.
Lastly, how would they perform in a war? Supposing if the Allies (Britain, France, Italy, Poland, maybe the US) go to war with the Communists, I'm really unsure how it would go. On one hand, it seems that the German Red Army would suffer quite a lot from the absence of much of the senior leadership, the industries that helped create powerful vehicles and equipment for OTL's Wehrmacht, and the mobile fast hitting blitzkrieg/combined arms doctrine. On the other hand, I think one big bonus to Germany would be Russia as an ally. Unlike Italy, Japan, and the other axis members, the Soviets would add tens of millions of troops and huge amounts of resources and industry to help the Germans. ~20-30 million Soviets served in OTL WWII and the resources Stalin gave to the Germans early in WWII immensely helped Germany produce military equipment and gave the Germans food, fuel, and other essential supplies (which ironically helped the Germans use against the Soviets in Barbarossa). Imagine the latter but in the long term where Germany's resource issues in OTL were resolved thanks to friendly Soviet cooperation.
With that considered, I gotta say i'm 50/50 overall. The Soviets not only could make up for the deficiencies in the German Red Army but give its ally an immense advantage the Nazi Germans couldn't do: Outproduce (and outnumber) the Allies. On the other hand, it's possible that the US' entry into the war could give the Allies the upper hand as it would overall outproduce the communists and provide invaluable assistance to the Allies.
It's why it seems like the war goals would decide who'd win or lose the war. I doubt the communists would want to conquer all of Europe and then some like the Nazis. I think if the Communists started the war and went on the offensive, they would want to knock out France and the mainland European opposition and probably sue for peace and write up some compromise like Britain would keep certain colonies while releasing some of their colonies over time, France would have to do reparations and have its army crippled, same with Italy and the others or some peace deal that doesn't create too much revanchinism while planting the seeds for a leftist revolution one day.
If it's a defensive war, that the Allies decide to attack once they rearmed, then it would be a war where the Germans and Soviets would have to bleed the Allies white until they can pressure the Allies into some peace deal which would restore borders to normal supposing it's a stalemate. If the communists end up losing like WWI then I could see German return to a conservative/democratic state. And if the communists manage to turn the tide and push into the Allied territories, that probably would be the best case scenario because the Allies were the aggressors therefore with the Allies losing the public probably would turn on the government and possibly help foster revolutions and shift the countries leftwards... though of course it could go the other way where these leftists are crushed at home and fascism takes hold of Britain and America.
Whew, sorry for that. Had nothing to work on at work today.
Would love to hear your thoughts!
Edit: Things I forgot:
Navy: I may be wrong but would the Kriesgmarine be more favorable towards a leftist government? What with the navy mutinies and the abstention to participate against or for the German revolutionaries. In any case, if it were more favorable, then I could see the Kriegsmarine perform better in this ATL, with the communist German government probably putting more effort into funding the Navy. Having the Russian baltic fleet and of course, the combined dockyards could help give the communists a better chance though I doubt they would be able to take on the British and American fleets aggressively.
Leadership Flexibility: One of the Wehrmacht's greatest avantage was how they put autonomous officers on the frontline to lead the troops rather than following a strict top down approach. It greatly aided the Germans but it arguably hurt the Germans in the long run because more and more officers died on the front and they couldn't be replaced fast enough. In this ATL, we may see the reverse of this as officers would be seen more valuable (what with the vacancies in the General Staff and fewer overall officers available to the Communists).
Air: I don't know much about the Luftwaffe's political leanings but I'm going to take a guess that because a Communist Germany probably would take a defensive posture that Germany may put more emphasis on fighters and strategic bombers than ground attack planes. Fighters for the defense of Germany and strategic bombers, made possible by Soviet industries, to cripple the allies' factories.
Leadership Flexibility: One of the Wehrmacht's greatest avantage was how they put autonomous officers on the frontline to lead the troops rather than following a strict top down approach. It greatly aided the Germans but it arguably hurt the Germans in the long run because more and more officers died on the front and they couldn't be replaced fast enough. In this ATL, we may see the reverse of this as officers would be seen more valuable (what with the vacancies in the General Staff and fewer overall officers available to the Communists).
Air: I don't know much about the Luftwaffe's political leanings but I'm going to take a guess that because a Communist Germany probably would take a defensive posture that Germany may put more emphasis on fighters and strategic bombers than ground attack planes. Fighters for the defense of Germany and strategic bombers, made possible by Soviet industries, to cripple the allies' factories.
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