Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer

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Yülia

Yülia

Sorry for the double post:
Hello people said:
Maybe C because of the funding they would get from Hilter's funding of rebels and also maybe sends Jakob Kuhr to begin an uprising in South Tirol then the national popularity of the party in charge of Italy(Mussolini's Blackshirts) could go down then to stop the violence in South Tirol he gives it back to the Austrians so that he can still be in charge of Italy and the Austrian help Italians in the Ethiopian war and help train Italian soldiers.
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Wouldn't this just be reason for Italy and Mussolini to be against Hitler's funding of rebels? I can't imagine Mussolini having much issue clamping down on a rebellion of "mainland italy", and I doubt that he'd not be able to put two and two together "The man who fought an uprising against Yugoslavia to defend Austrian land is causing an uprising to defend Austrian land.... Mustn't be related to Hitler. Let alone how that's going to cause the national popularity of Mussolini to drop enough that he needs to sell off land to save it. Especially since the uprising would cause his popularity to drop because they're losing South Tirol, so giving it back to Austria would just tank his popularity further.

I also don't think Mussolini would want Austrian help fighting the Ethiopians. That's also something that' be humilitating. "We need help from another nation to defeat a land-locked African Country" is not a very proud thing to admit.

I'm not sure how many "great powers" need their troops trained by other nations, so I'm not going to comment much on that because of that. My only thought is I can't see Mussolini agreeing to that without some solid proof that Austrian troops are superior. Did Mussolini ever have his troops trained by the Germans OTL when they seemed unstoppable? If he didn't then I don't see him ever accepting that from Austria.
 

Truenorth14

Shock said:
Realistically, any scenario where Hitler demands South Tyrol as part of (an) alliance is going to be laughed out the door unless he offers things he can't provide, like "If you give us south tyrol, you can have everything from France and Africa that you want"

Anyone accepting that is a moron, because Austria A) can't help with Africa, and B) isn't really going to be in a position to threaten the French and British militaries. Even operating on hindsight where the French were under-prepared, there's no way Mussolini wouldn't think he can get the Yugoslavian lands by agreeing to help the French with the Germans (and/or Soviets?)

Mussolini would need something of value to make him think that giving up South Tyrol is worthwhile, and would also need to avoid the perception of "He's giving it up in all but name", which is what Choice B sounds like it'd be close to. I don't really know what Mussolini wants beyond the typical list: Yugoslavian lands, Greece, Albania, Tunisia, Savoy and Corsica (Mostly because thats what I remember from other TLs and Threads and what'd make sense from my limited knowledge), and I can't think of ways that HItler can offer much. Hitler offering a "free hand in the Balkans" requires Hitler to have either A) control over the people who might protest (the UK, France), B) The ability to help Italy get it, without Italy having that capability themselves, or C) having the land on his own.

Because picture this: Mussolini hands over South Tyrol, and then Hitler allows Croatia et all to be Italian conquests, except doesn't offer any help if/when the French (or Soviets or whoever) decides to threaten Italy over it. Now Italy is out South Tyrol in exchange for something they didn't get.

Obviously if Austria is more powerful than I'm expecting, or has enough weight to get other nations to back down, that changes things.
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I rather like this idea. Hitler promises Croatia, but then France refuses to let Italy get Croatia so Hitler says he will "hold onto it for Mussolini" but ends up never giving Italy Croatia.
 
Yülia

Yülia

Truenorth14 said:
I rather like this idea. Hitler promises Croatia, but then France refuses to let Italy get Croatia so Hitler says he will "hold onto it for Mussolini" but ends up never giving Italy Croatia.
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That's more like what'd happen, although if Hitler controls Croatia and other territories like that, that probably changes negotiating.

What I imagine is that Hitler promises Italy a free hand in Croatia/Yugoslavia for South Tyrol, and then when France threatens Italy with War if they attack any European neighbours, Hitler goes "That's a darn shame, Thanks for South Tirol buddy!"
 

Not Henry G.

I'm thinking C. It could be a combination of the people causing too much trouble, and Hitler providing some crucial help that Mussolini needs badly enough to give it away
 

Truenorth14

Shock said:
That's more like what'd happen, although if Hitler controls Croatia and other territories like that, that probably changes negotiating.

What I imagine is that Hitler promises Italy a free hand in Croatia/Yugoslavia for South Tyrol, and then when France threatens Italy with War if they attack any European neighbours, Hitler goes "That's a darn shame, Thanks for South Tirol buddy!"
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Exactly! This I think makes the most sense.
 
Tanner151

Tanner151

Alright going off feedback I’m going to lean towards Option B. South Tyrol will be an autonomous region of Italy. It’s people can volunteer for the Italian military, but if not done so they are eligible for conscription into the Austrian Volkswehr. South Tyrol Austrians will hold “special status” dual citizenship. This gives Austria tens of thousands of able bodied men for military service, something they’ll desperately need.

As for Yugoslavia, the Sozinats only annex Slovenia into the Austrian State. Bosnia and Croatia become puppet states, while Serbia becomes the Serbian Occupation Zone (aka General-Government analogue and the site of TTL’s smaller but still horrifying Holocaust.

Hitler and the Sozinats are not OTL Nazis who wanted to conquer and make land (especially in Eastern Europe) into lebensraum. Hitler is far more concerned with economic and political dominance of a European-based military alliance. He wants Austria to become a Great Power again, not annex everything all the way to the Urals (Hitler here knows that is literally impossible, even with the USSR suffering two Great Purges before WW2 begins)

I am having an issue self-legitimizing a concept so I’ll run it by y’all for feedback;

I was going to have the Austrian State take over Hungary around 1938/1939. The original plan was Horthy was anti-Hitler but was killed by Austrian assassination (Skorzeny?), or pro-Sozinat factions of the Hungarian government launched a coup, and the Volkswehr marches in to “establish peace and order” and then Hungary becomes the Austrian Protectorate of Hungary. Nominally an independent nation, it is a de facto territorial conquest of Austria and on most maps is listed as such.

Austrian-dominated Hungary has its industry and population used to enlarge the Volkswehr’s fighting capability, with Hungarians being considered “auxiliary” forces to the Volkswehr. The “ruler” of Hungary would have been Ferenc Szálasi with an Austrian Plenipotentiary actually running the country and appointed by Hitler.

Now I’ve had a hard time legitimizing this and coming up with ways this could have happened realistically in-universe so instead I’m just going to have Hungary become a close ally of Austria, and treated more like an ally rather than a conquered people.

What do y’all think?

Also as for the chapter I’ve been slammed with real life, video games and work. Christmas break is coming up and will have it out then. I have Hitler’s and Liselotte’s sections written, just need to get to the rest.

An Austrian-dominated Hungary would have made Austria that much more powerful of a threat but I feel I can achieve a similar power status with the two being allies, though Austria won’t have vast tracts of annexed land. Slovenia is the only one I’ll confirm for now. Maybe some border adjustments with Hungary if Hitler is able to control it via Szalási.
 
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Reisen Storm

Reisen Storm

Tanner151 said:
Now I’ve had a hard time legitimizing this and coming up with ways this could have happened realistically in-universe so instead I’m just going to have Hungary become a close ally of Austria, and treated more like an ally rather than a people.
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Aren't you having Austria be a monarchy by having a Habsburg return? Why not have a Hungarian referendum on whether or not they want to be ruled by a Habsburg and reform Austria-Hungary?
 

Mayukh

Tanner151 said:
Austrian-dominated Hungary has its industry and population used to enlarge the Volkswehr’s fighting capability, with Hungarians being considered “auxiliary” forces to the Volkswehr. The “ruler” of Hungary would have been Ferenc Szálasi with an Austrian Plenipotentiary actually running the country and appointed by Hitler.
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Its Kinda Realistic. I Like it.
 
pls don't ban me

pls don't ban me

Monthly Donor
Reisen Storm said:
Aren't you having Austria be a monarchy by having a Habsburg return? Why not have a Hungarian referendum on whether or not they want to be ruled by a Habsburg and reform Austria-Hungary?
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Mayukh said:
No. Hitler hates Monarchies.
Hapsburg are going to resist Hitler.
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well, if Hitler get killed or defeated at some point, The Hapsburg might seems a valid option to counter future possible dictators.

Considering even OTL Hungary was a monarchy until the soviet occupation, there might be a restoration of Austria-Hungary, which eventually will look like: "we died, and yet we were reborn from ashes."
 

Tolkiene

Tanner151 said:
I was going to have the Austrian State take over Hungary around 1938/1939. The original plan was Horthy was anti-Hitler but was killed by Austrian assassination (Skorzeny?), or pro-Sozinat factions of the Hungarian government launched a coup, and the Volkswehr marches in to “establish peace and order” and then Hungary becomes the Austrian Protectorate of Hungary. Nominally an independent nation, it is a de facto territorial conquest of Austria and on most maps is listed as such.
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I know it's a popular trope to use him as a 'Nazi super commando' type, but I'd suggest using someone other than Skorzeny. Because, to be frank, he's very overrated. Quoting a post I made elsewhere in an unrelated thread:

'Skorzeny is quite overrated in popular culture. He wasn't some kind of Nazi supersoldier. He was a Nazi soldier who did a bunch of commando raids and was hyped up by Himmler and Goebbels' propaganda ministry. Nor was he really Mussolini's rescuer. Credit goes to Kurt Student's Fallschirmjäger. The operation was commanded by Major Otto-Harald Mors, and led by Oberleutnant (First Lieutenant) Georg Freiherr von Berlepsch, both Fallschirmjäger officers. Skorzeny showboated and got the glory, much to the Fallschirmjägers' annoyance. Skorzeny wasn't involved in the planning of the operation or in command. Fun fact, the plane carrying Mussolini almost collapsed because Skorzeny insisted on accompanying Mussolini, and the plane was overloaded. In short, Skorzeny endangered the success of the mission he's most famous for.'

And when he and his men tried to infiltrate American lines during the Ardennes Offensive, they seem to have easily given themselves away due to their lack of knowledge of American military customs. Worth noting that Skorzeny didn't start out as a commando type. He became one fairly late. Before the war, he was a guy in the Austrian Nazi Party and SS organisation (Party member since 1932), then received training in the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler and served in SS Division Das Reich. He wasn't involved in any commando stuff until 1943, with RSHA chief Kaltenbrunner as his patron. Here's a good post that deconstructs the legend.

Now since Austria is following a rather different military direction than Nazi Germany, it is conceivable that Skorzeny gets his ideas for a commando unit sooner...but real Skorzeny was rather different from the myth.
 
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