Chronology: Reconstruction of the Roman Empire under the Carolingian dynasty

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Mario, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    * Clarification regarding 1149 declaration:

    At this date, the relations between Rome and Constantinople were at their finest moment since the restoration of the WRE in 800. De facto, they shared their sovereignty over diverse territories like Hungaria (the remaining Magyar Empire), Serbia and the most important, the Holy Land.

    By Roman side, the Emperor realized the increasing Byzantine dependency on the Roman military assistance. If Rome was apparently due to assume the control of the Byzantine borders in order to stop the hard pressure of the Turks, it would be better to assume a joint control.

    Obviously, this was still too premature. In Constantinople, even if they were aware on this increasing dependency on Rome, the elites did not want to lose their status or relocate to Pavia in order to keep their influence in the Imperial power. And also the Roman dukes were reluctant to incorporate such large territory with their own cultural and political particularities.
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  2. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Decade of 1150s

    1150: The Turkish expansion into the upper Dniepr valley is halted by the Lithuanians: however, a Turkish expedition manages to explore the northern region up to the lake Ladoga shore.

    1151: The Romans conquer the area of Cartagena, in southeastern Spain. The old Andalusian capital of Cordoba is besieged without success.

    1152: The Danes of Ireland are defeated in Anglesey and start a massive retreat from Wales to their homeland. The Romans support the rule of the Prince Egbert, from a mixed Welsh-Saxon noble family, against the will of most of the local noblemen.

    1153: The Kingdom of Sweden expands into the southern regions of the Pagan Lapland, starting the evangelization of the local Sámi tribes.

    1154: In the Holy Land, the Romans and Byzantines finish the construction of a new system of walls for protecting Jerusalem from the Turkish raids.

    1155: Resume of the war between Rome and Lithuania for the control over Prussia and Masuria. The Turks are defeated in their northeastern borders by a large Chinese army.

    1156: The Turks destroy the Sultanate of Egypt, but the Byzantines manage to keep control over the area of the Delta, thanks to the Roman military assistance.

    1157: The territories of Vinland and New England acquire status of duchy, separate from the authority of the duchy of Markland - Terra Nova.

    1158: Fall of Ceuta: the Romans capture the first Andalusian city in the African side, trying to gain control over all the strait of Gibraltar.

    1159: The Empire of Mali incorporates the area of the river Senegal, and founds an important commercial and military settlement called Wagam in the nearby of the mouth of the river.
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  3. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Map of the Terra Nova in 1160:


    The borders in purple are the limits assigned to each duchy, but the areas already settled are significantly smaller (orange for Romans, pink for Norwegians).

    New toponyms appear for neighbouring, unexplored areas, including New France (due to the assignment of this land to a Frankish expedition, which at the end did not depart from Vinland), Terra Mariana (due to the discovery of the lake Marian) or Barbaria Nova (due to the high concentration of Native tribes in the area).
    mane and John I of Brazil like this.
  4. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

    Nov 30, 2010
    At this pace, I wonder if the preconditions of the twilight of Islam in the Mediterranean are almost set, as proverbial pieces of a domino.

    But soon or later the two Empires should face time of troubles, internal crisis and rebalancing acts...
    Evil Crusader likes this.
  5. Dfront21 Well-Known Member

    Apr 7, 2012
    What's going on culturally? What's the language of administration and of the people in this Roman Empire? Latin? Are the vulgar Latin languages given any space to develop? How about with the Turks? They control a largely Persian speaking population, and it doesn't look like there was a large depopulation of Persian speakers from Central Asia as in OTL. Also, this was the time of a lot of Islamic heresys and Zoroastrian revivalist movements.
    John I of Brazil likes this.
  6. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    The languages of the Roman administration are both Latin and the Germanic lingua franca. Latin is also the language used by the Church, as IOTL.

    Vulgar Latin languages have not developed as IOTL, mostly reduced to a more dialectal status (and far more Germanized). It could be a similar situation to IOTL today Arab in classical form (= Latin) and their national vulgar dialects.

    The Turkish empire uses mostly Turkic and Persian, with Arab as a liturgic language.

    Of course, there are many heresies in both Christianism and Islam, but as this is an abbreviated quick TL they are not described as long as they would have an important impact in a political event.
  7. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Decade of 1160s

    1160: The Kingdom of Alodia is attacked by the Turks for the first time, but the Alodian armies repeal it. The Turks have to retreat to Dongola, which will become their southernmost stronghold in the Nubian-Abyssinian area.

    1161: Conquest of the city of Tanger, completing the Roman control of the African side of the strait of Gibraltar: the internal decomposition of the Caliphate of the Andalus is accelerated.

    1162: End of the Third Roman-Lithuanian War: with the treaty of Thorn, a new common Roman-Lithuanian border is drawn without buffer zones inbetween. Rome finally gains control over most of Prussia and Masuria, while Lithuania ensures Roman assistance against the Turkish advance.

    1163: The Norwegians settlers of Helluland establishes new settlements in the mainland (New Helluland), after the difficulties of keeping the old settlements in Helluland proper due to the harsh climate.

    1164: The Swedes build a fishing and trading post in the east end of the gulf of Finland (OTL Saint Petersburg), also reaching for the first time the lake Ladoga shores.

    1165: The Turks conquer the Emirate of Cirene, thus directly accessing for the first time to the Mediterranean. This event causes a big alarm in the Roman Empire, and several dukes call the Emperor for a massive Roman intervention in North Africa.

    1166: Egbert, the Prince of Wales abdicates; his son Robert begs Rome to recognize him as a Roman duke and also helps him to control the country, absolutely ravaged by riots and general unrest against the pro-Roman power.

    1167: Abdelkarim II, the last Caliph of the Andalus, is murdered: the remains of the Caliphate are divided into several minor kingdoms, which helps the Romans to accelerate the conquest of the last remainders in Spain and Northern Mauretania.

    1168: Massacre of Kaisersburg: a confederation of Native tribes attacks the Roman-Anglian settlers in New England. The mainland is mostly evacuated, remaining only the settlements in two islands (OTL Long Island and Staten Island).

    1169: Reports of the presence of Turkish military explorers in the nearby of the Tunisian-controlled city of Sabratha (Tripolitania) boosts the Imperial plans of a large-scale pan-Roman intervention in North Africa for the first time in several centuries.
  8. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Map of the World in 1170

    mane, Christos, taxidea and 5 others like this.
  9. IanSupremo I am Ozymandias

    Apr 9, 2017
    New World Romans harhar
    This TL is awesome. I bid thee, continue.
  10. luis3007 History amateur

    Aug 6, 2007
    The Grey City, South America
    That Turkish Empire is a monster. If they manage to concentrate their full military force on a single axis they could easily overrun the Byzantines and plunge deep into Roman Gaul or Italy.
    Evil Crusader likes this.
  11. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    I don't want to do spoilers, but just some obvious observations:

    - The Turks, after repeatedly failing to attack the Byzantines directly via Syria/Palestine/East Anatolia (thanks in part to the military assistance of the Romans), have opted to encircle it. This might work or not, depending on how well defended is the enemy (in this case, the Byzantines). The main problem is leaving a lot of vulnerable flanks, and the Turks have other external enemies in their backside (i.e. the Chinese).

    - The Turks are the external agent pressing the Byzantines to embrace (Western) Rome, something that, without such powerful external and common enemy, would not happen.

    - And finally, it is obvious that the Turks are at the highest peak of its expansion and they can't handle much more if Byzantium does not collapse. Much of their territory is quite depopulated, soemthing that has its advantages (rebellions should be rare there) but also problems (they are vulnerable if other powers try to invade them).
    EmperorJerome and RyuDrago like this.
  12. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

    Nov 30, 2010
    Besides the Turks failed a first assault on Alodia, so their expansion is not unstoppable... my two cents are the Turks and the Romans struggling for the next 50 years, until the Mongols will rise, and then the odds are on air...
    Tarabas likes this.
  13. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Decade of 1170s

    1170: The Diet of Pavia approves the formation of a specially large army for fighting the Turkish advance in Tunisia. The Byzantines agree on assisting Rome with additional troops.

    1171: Wales is officially incorporated into Rome after the last anti-Roman resistence is defeated and their main leaders exiled to the Kingdom of Munster.

    1172: The war between Romans and Turks for the control of Tunisia finally breaks out: the Roman-Byzantine alliance succeeds in deploying the largest Roman army since Classical times in the nearby of the city of Tunis.

    1173: The city of Tunis is put under a long siege by the Romans while the elite of the Emirate flees to the northwestern regions. The Turks occupy the island of Djerba and gradually advance to the north.

    1174: The Roman-Spanish armies in the Iberian peninsula conquer most of the Andalusian remainders in the south-east. The city of Granada and its surroundings remain as the last Andalusian stronghold in Spain.

    1175: The Romans conquer the city of Tunis while the Turks occupy the southern half of the Emirate. Many Muslim population flee from the Roman-occupied areas to the Turkish ones, or the neighbouring Andalusian states.

    1176: The Kingdom of Lithuania defeat the Turks in the valley of the Dniepr, allowing them to expand their southern borders up to the Black Sea shore.

    1177: The Turks capture the city of Kairouan, but fail to advance to the coast, where the Romans have established fortified lines assisted by the powerful Byzantine navy.

    1178: Fail of the city of Bizerta under Roman dominion: the former Emirate loses their last strongholds in the North. The last Emir of Tunis, Abdel the Bald, tries to flee to the Turkish zone, but he dies in unknown circumstances during the trip.

    1179: A plague ruining the harvests in Britain boosts a new wave of migrations from the island to the Terra Nova, specially the duchy of New England.
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  14. taxidea Well-Known Member

    Sep 18, 2017
    So I have two questions.
    1. What is the Nature of the Turkish Empire? What type of administration does it use? Is it nomadic in the north and more sedentary in the south or what? Does it have one leader or is it a confederation?
    2. What is going on in China, I just noticed that they border the Turks in the most recent map update. How are they doing on other frontiers? Also what is their relationship with the Turks?
  15. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Good question.

    The Turkish Empire started as a confederation of nomadic tribes which converted to Islam during the 8th-9th centuries, but as it expanded into more urbanized areas like Persia or Mesopotamia, it gradually acquired a more structured administration, somehow imitating the style of administration of the former Arab Caliphate.

    However, in Central Asia and the Eastern European plains the organization is still more basic than in the actual core of Egypt-Mesaopotamia-Arabia-Persia.

    The Chinese border the Turks just in their westernmost end, and as actually pointed in the Chronology, their relationships are sometimes hostile, but most of the time they are simply neutral as their areas of influence only overlap in a small area of OTL Sinkiang.
  16. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Decade of 1180s

    1180: The Antilian Islands (OTL Açores) are discovered by chance by a Roman ship which tried to return from New England to Britain, but was pushed southwards due to a violent storm.

    1181: The Byzantine navy expels the Turks from the island of Djerba and the surrounding waters. A new war between the Danish Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Munster breaks out, triggered by the arrival of different and confronted Welsh factions to Ireland.

    1182: Death of the Emperor Charles IV. His son, Charles V is first crowned in Milan (later he will be also crowned in Jerusalem).

    1183: The Turks have to abandon the Tunisian city of Kairouan after the Romans cut all the routes for supplying the Turkish troops in the city and its surroundings. This event will contribute to the decision of a final retreat of the Turks out of Tunisia.

    1184: After twelve years of fighting, all the Turkish troops retreat to the east of Sabratha. The Turkish Emperor, Mehmet the Pious, decide to reconcentrate all his military forces in the Muslim Egypt and Arabia, due to the increasing popular discontent with the Turkish rule there.

    1185: Following the Turkish retreat, Charles V appoints war hero Guido de Calabria as the first duke of the Roman Tunisia. The Byzantines receive Djerba, which will be used as an important base for its navy. Thousands of Muslim Tunisians flee from the Roman rule to the Andalusian states of the Maghreb, while Christian settlers arrive from southern Italy.

    1186: The Kingdom of Norway cedes the territory of White Man's Land (Albania or Weissmannland) to the Romans, due to the difficulty for its effective ruling without Roman assistance. In exchange, Rome allows all the Norwegian fishers and whalers to dock in all the Roman Terra Novan ports for free.

    1187: The last Andalusian strongholds in southeastern Spain are finally conquered by the Romans, thus finishing the five-centuries Saracen presence in Europe. The Romans rename the southern Spain duchies as Vandalitia (Occidentalis and Orientalis), assuming that this was the Latin word which later derivated in the Arabic 'Andalusia'.

    1188: Turkish purges in Egypt and Arabia: many rebels try to escape to the Byzantine Empire, but they are rejected by the Byzantine army. A significant part of them finally flee to Alodia, where they are accepted if converted to Christianism.

    1189: The first caravans of Muslim North African people, fleeing from the wars with Rome in the Maghreb, arrive in Wagam (Mali Empire / OTL Senegal). These migrations will increase during the following decades, transfering a significant number of Muslim Arabic/Berber population from the Maghreb to the western half of the wealthy Mali Empire.
  17. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Clarification regarding the conquest of Tunisia

    Key fact for the future: the Western Roman elites reached the power and acquired the lands, while the Eastern Roman ones only received a part of the booty and the control of Djerba.

    The Byzantine noblemen realized in the Tunisian campaign that, for being eligible for winning the big trophies, they should be on the same consideration that the Western Roman noblemen. So, this is the birth of the pro-Union party inside the Byzantine society.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  18. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Decade of 1190s

    Settlers from Vinland start the settlement of the new territory of New Francia, in the woodlands northwest of the Saint Lawrence valley.

    1191: New Turkish offensive against the Roman-Byzantine forces in the Holy Land. The success of the Western Roman troops against the Turkish armies strengthens the positions of the pro-Union noblemen among the Byzantine military elite.

    1192: After the death of the heir, Prince Sven, King Magnus of Norway accepts the union of his only daughter Sigrid with Prince Edmund of Rome, securing the access of the future Roman Emperor to the Norwegian Crown (after several previous attempts).

    1193: The purges in the Turkish Empire triggers new persecutions of Christians and Jews, who form long caravans in direction to the Roman Empire; however, very few manage to reach Rome and many of them finally establish new settlements in the area of the lower Dniepr, which is now a sort of no man's land between the Turkish Empire, Rome and Lithuania.

    1194: A plot against King Magnus, led by the duke of Hordaland, is disbanded by Roman agents in Norway. Rome secures an effective dominion over the Norwegian nobility.

    1195: Rise of the Mongol Empire in the plains of East Asia: first great victory of the Mongol cavalry over the Chinese army in Nangshia, which guarantees the Mongol full independence from China.

    1196: The Mali Empire creates its first small navy, based in Wagam, thanks to the assistance of Arabic sailors who migrated from the Maghreb.

    1197: The pro-Union party in Byzantium formally suggest Emperor Constantine the Mysian to accept a dynastic union between Rome and Byzantium in terms similar to that projected between Rome and Norway.

    1198: Death of the Emperor Charles V: his son, Edmund I is crowned in Milan as new Emperor. King Magnus of Norway abdicates and Edmund is also crowned in Anslo as King of Norway: after this historical milestone, Edmund I will officially claim for the 'union of all Christendom after a sole Protector, an only Emperor'.

    1199: Edmund I detaches Helluland, Greenland, Iceland and Caledonia from the Norwegian Crown and grants them a seat in the Roman Diet of Pavia. Caledonia is divided between a mostly Gaelic duchy (Scotia, in the west) and a Germanic one (Caledonia proper, in the east); Galloway is united to Cumbria.
  19. Mario Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2013
    Map of the World in 1200

  20. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist Banned

    Mar 30, 2018
    Great going till now! Now I think next you will have an Roman America+Europe and Turkish Empire as massive powers on two sides. However,I think Roman Empire could get an edge here.