Chronology: Reconstruction of the Roman Empire under the Carolingian dynasty

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Mario, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Mario Well-Known Member

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    I will post a map with the ethno-lingusitics too :D

    But as a quick explanation, there are four main groups: Latin, Germanic, Slavic and Greek. Before the reunification with Byzantium, the balance between Latin and Germanic was the key of power, as Slavs were minority, but now Greeks are also a very important group.
     
  2. John I of Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Allright. Thank you and keep doing a good job!
     
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  3. Epimethius Well-Known Member

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    I predict that the next exspansion will be into egypt and bringing the north african coast under roman control. Im also curious to see the fight with the mongols. what do roman armies look like now?
     
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  4. Mario Well-Known Member

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    The ethno-linguistic map of the Roman Empire (without the Terra Nova)

    [​IMG]
     
  5. the Imperium of Canada The King Under The Mountain

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    Question, how technologically advanced is TTL Rome compared to OTL 1270s Europe?
     
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  6. luis3007 History amateur

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    The OTL Carolingian era recovered a lot of the writings and preserved quite a bit of tech from the Western Roman empire. That plus a near complete fusion with the Eastern Roman Empire tech base and continuous access and funding from the state should have reversed the worst of the dark ages tech decline.

    However both Christianity and the time period between the collapse of the west and the rise of the Carolingian era will still have affected TTL tech base somewhat. At parts it should be 100-150 years ahead (like ship building). But in others it would be only a few decades ahead of its OTL equivalent.
     
  7. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Roman armies are a mix of post-Classical armies like the Byzantine and typically feudal ones.

    The Emperor does not depend on his vassals to form and fund an army, but they are not like the structured Legions anymore, of course. There is a mixture of permanent armies needed for border safety and also temporary armies used for the campaigns. Temporary armies partially depend on the Diet, but this would be a quite flexible system.

    ITTL feudalism has been partially avoided and it also affects the military organization.

    Good question.

    Certainly navigation technology is more advanced due to the integration of the Norse skills directly with the Imperial naval structure and funds. It makes possible to travel to North-Eastern America in a reasonable time and safety, something not possible IOTL.
     
  8. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Very well explained :)
     
  9. Epimethius Well-Known Member

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    Is gunpowder on the horizon? Its fairly easy to discover if you have access to the right materials and like playing around with alchemy.
     
  10. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Decade of 1270s


    1270:
    The Mongols expel the Swedes out of Finland, thus losing all their territories in the Eastern side of the Baltic. Most of the Swedes expelled from Finland and Estonia are relocated to the Aland islands.

    1271: Edict of Syrmium: the tolerance towards the 'diversity' inside the Christian faith is granted as long as the different Christian leaders accept their role of Imperial officers subdued to the power of the Emperor (concept of 'Christian Unity' symbolized by the Emperor). This edict will cause some turmoil in the Eastern Churches.

    1272: The continued Roman expansion in West Mauritania triggers new waves of Muslim migrations first to the Mali Empire, and later to New Mali (OTL Brazil).

    1273: The Mongols occupy most of the old Turkish territories west of the Volga, dividing the lands still controlled by the Turks by the Caspian Sea.

    1274: The city of Attalia (Anatolia) is partially burnt down: the Emperor Charles Theodore I blames diverse Byzantinists factions still operating in the shadows.

    1275: Roman-Icelandic explorers rediscover the island of Svalbard (OTL Jan Mayen) and incorporate it to the duchy of Iceland, establishing a little whaling outpost there.

    1276: War between Alodia and Yemen for the control of western Somalia, which has a Muslim majority but it is under Alodian influence.

    1277: The island of Sylvia (OTL Madeira) is renamed 'Laurea' by a Lusitanian expedition which begins the permanent Roman settlement of the archipelago.

    1278: The Mongol pressure cause the division of the Turkish Empire, with the disconnected area between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea becoming the independent Sultanate of Azerbaijan.

    1279: The Roman explorer Adelphus Licinus leads an expedition through the OTL Ohio valley, named (Terra) Licinia after his exploration. Without their knowledge, the expedition starts a catastrophic epidemic of smallpox which decimates the Native tribes of a vast area beyond the Appalaches.
     
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  11. luis3007 History amateur

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    You know that the more you prop the colonies the more the forces that incentivate independence from the mainland will grow, don't you?

    Without OTL 19th century undersea telegraphs to lower communication times a schism is inevitable.
     
  12. Mario Well-Known Member

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    I know, I know.

    I have planned the development of that. By the moment, the colonies are too underpopulated for pushing for that.

    However, notice two differences with OTL 'colonies':

    1) The American duchies has same representation in the Diet as the rest of duchies in the Old World. Apart of higher distances, relations between the Imperial administration and let's say Croatia are formally the same as with New England.

    2) The population of the duchies in Terra Nova is more heterogeneous than IOTL Thirteen Colonies, so an eventual union between them against the Metropoli is more complicated.
     
  13. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Decade of 1280s


    1280:
    A new outbreak of the Plague of the Orient decimates the population of many regions from Persia to central Anatolia.

    1281: Unconfirmed new Roman expedition to New Spain (OTL Florida), but this time departing from New England. No crew returned from this expedition, but the ruins of an alleged Roman settlement will be found years later in the northern coast (OTL coast of Georgia).

    1282: Uprising in Muslim Egypt against the Persian dominion: restoration of the old Sultanate of Egypt, but without controlling the Mediterranean coast, due to the Roman presence there.

    1283: Following the retreat of the weak Sultanate of Azerbaijan from the west (Black Sea) to the east (Caspian Sea), the Romans begin to establish small ports between the strait of Kerch and northern Lazica (called Circassian coast), in order to complete their dominion of the whole Black Sea.

    1284: Synod of Cyprus: the different Christian branches under Imperial authority meet in the island of Cyprus in order to exploring ways to mitigate their differences over several theological issues.

    1285: The Roman Empire begins the establishment of a series of fortresses between the Delta of the Nile and the area of Cirene, abandoned after the retreat of the Persians which followed the independence of the Muslim Egypt.

    1286: Plot of Venice: the Emperor uncovers a plot against his person led by his own cousin Michael the Blond. The Byzantinists leaders of the plot are publicly hanged in Constantinople.

    1287: A Roman expedition reaches the Fortuna islands (OTL Canary islands) and explores their shores, but they do not settle or try to communicate with the local Guanche population.

    1288: The Mongols occupy the eastern part of the Kingdom of Lithuania, despite the Roman military assistance to the Lithuanian armies.

    1289: The growth of the settlements in White Man's Land leads to the division of the duchy in two (North and South), while the Upper Vinland dominions start to expand into the little explored Terra Mariana (severely depopulated after the smallpox pandemic).
     
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  14. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Decade of 1290s


    1290:
    The Germanic population established in northwestern Tunisia riot against the discrimination in the land concessions (which allegedly favour Latins and Greeks).

    1291: A Malian expedition discovers the island of Shoula (OTL Trinidad), the westernmost place explored by them in New Mali.

    1292: The Romans have to retreat from Mesopotamia due to the increasing Persian pressure in the area and the depopulation caused by the plague of the Orient.

    1293: The Mongols conquer most of lower Finland: many Christian Finns flee to the Estonian islands, thus creating the first Kingdom of Estonia.

    1294: The duchies of Thracia, Macedonia and Epirus are split in two parts each, in order to improve the administration in that area of the Balkans.

    1295: Death of the Emperor Charles Theodore I: his son Louis Michael I is crowned Emperor in Jerusalem.

    1296: A Chinese embassy arrives, for the first time in centuries, in Roman territory (Egypt), after sailing from an Indian port through the Arabian sea and the Read sea up to Suez.

    1297: After several years of protests, the Germanic Tunisians start to occupy lands in the neighbouring Numidian states, triggering a conflict between them and Rome.

    1298: Irish-Danish settlers begin the exploration and conquest of the coast between New England and New Spain, called 'the Blue coast' (and later, 'the Blue land').

    1299: The Roman-Crimeans finally manage to establish a safe area between northern Crimea and the river Dniepr, which is fortified and open to settlement: this will be the origin of the duchy of Sarmatia.
     
  15. Mario Well-Known Member

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    The World in 1300

    World_1300.png
     
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  16. luis3007 History amateur

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    The very concept of a christian universal empire limits Rome expansion in the old world. Neither Persia or Egypt have much christian population by now and while the New world may be conquered under the same evangelization pretexts as in OTL the Malian penetration in South America will close that avenue of expansion as well.

    The Romans also seem to have a increasingly dangerous divide between the Latin/Greek aristocracy and the Germanic/slavic population despite the supposedly universal character of a christian Empire.
     
  17. Epimethius Well-Known Member

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    Okay so forgive me Mario but ive been doing a bit of thinking, and I have a few observations as a result. First off im curious about the advancement of tech in this timeline, which I believe youve touched on in the past but I thought id raise it again. So essentially the "Roman" empire is a Carolingian creation. Youve done a great job looking at the political advancements and thanks to following prexisting trends in Carolingian society, you've done away with the fractured feudal system that evolved after the carolingians fell apart. The Carolingians (and ive been doing some research thanks to the osprey series of books) had just begun the evolution towards heavy cavalry and relied as much on heavy infantry as they did on heavy cavalry. The successors to the carolingians in Germany, the ottonians, were able to handle the steppes peoples fairly well, dealing with the avars and proto hungarians well enough that they stayed in eastern europe. But the Mongols are an entirely different kettle of fish. They have all the mobility standard to the steppes nomads combined with the medieval tech of the Chinese, and better armor, weaponry, logistics and tactical organization. It was proven at any number of battles, that standard medieval weapons tech was barely able to handle the mongols. A better political organization will offset some of these advantages, but the Mongols had brilliant leaders and more centralized command and control structure can only offset those advantages so much. The mongols werent just lucky they were good.... So how do the "Roman" armies stand up? Have they learned from the diverse areas that theyve fought in? Im just curious and trying to provoke thought along those lines. Europe got lucky OTL when it came to the mongols.
     
  18. Mario Well-Known Member

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    Annex: The 'Olivians' or the Commonwealth of the Olive


    Before resuming the chronology, I am going to explain in this separate Annex who 'the Olivians', very important actors in this Chronology, are.

    ITTL the Roman Church has increasingly become a hyper-bureaucratized system tightly attached to the Roman Imperial power. This fact has prevented many of the schisms, heresies and religious controversies typical of this period IOTL.

    However, inside the Christian community many monks and low-rank priests have being rejecting this trend of the 'official' Church, and openly advocated for a 'return to the Christian essences', specially supporting the poor, fighting the unequality and the injustices from the powerful administration etc.

    After the disappointing Synod of Cyprus in 1284, a little part of the low clergy decided to boost a semi-clandestine group inside the Church called 'the Commonwealth of the Olive'. Their members would be actually known as 'Olivians'.

    However, despite the fact that at they were tolerated at first, the essentialism of the Olivians (which disputed many of the current privileges of the upper clergy) soon triggered a hard response from the Church officialism. Thus, the Olivians were treated as 'dangerous heretics' and prosecuted.

    During the 14th century, the Olivians gradually realized that they were not strong enough for battling the ideals of the official Church, so their members finally opted to migrate to an unexplored area of Terra Nova, where the Roman power could not reach them.
     
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  19. SuperZtar64 Lord Protector of the New Commonwealth

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    How is the Pope selected? I am assuming His Holiness is de facto appointed by the Emperor, right?
     
  20. Joseph890 Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that the emperor produces a list of Cardinals who he would support if they were elected and the Cardinals select from that list Who is going to be the pope.