I bet anyone getting hold of that years tests in advance would make a killing on the black market, provided they don't get caught. Security on them would have to be airtight.
British Florida: the TL
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I bet anyone getting hold of that years tests in advance would make a killing on the black market, provided they don't get caught. Security on them would have to be airtight.
In 1969, English and Maths papers were stolen from three schools a few days before the exam and 70,000 students had to re-sit Inter and Leaving Cert exams in July.
Past hiccups
THE controversy surrounding Leaving Cert 2009 will be long remembered but it is not the first mishap with the exam.
www.independent.ie
What Florida should be hoping for, I suppose, is an education system modelled on that of Québec...which to put it in American terms essentially would mean High School finishing a year early (Grade 11).
High school is based on age - so everyone above the age of a grade 11 student would continue their education at CEGEP (Collegiate and Vocational Insitute in English).
CEGEP is sort of like a community college. It offers continuing education, adult learning, trades certificates and 3 year diplomas.
It also offers 2-year "Academic diplomas" which are required to attend university in the province, and university degrees are accomplished in 3 years.
So the overall time to get a uni degree is the same, but its split with 3 years at HS, 2 years at College and then 3 at Uni.
In Quebec, university is heavily subsidized already but CEGEP attendance is free (or at least was initially designed to be), so the advantages are...
An additional year of free post-secondary...
Removing the older students from high schools...
And there are ten times as many CEGEPS as Universities, so there is one within commuting distance of almost every community in Quebec.
This allows for a smoother transition into adulthood. Also, the two year academic diploma is more generic than choosing a major at the age of 18 without losing the Academic standards.
It also de-stigmatizes people who choose College over University, because everyone has to go to college
I think breaking down racial disparities in access to higher education would be a priority for a Stokely Carmichael government I mean a Florida Labour Party government, and something like this would go along way in reducing barriers while maintaining quality.
High school is based on age - so everyone above the age of a grade 11 student would continue their education at CEGEP (Collegiate and Vocational Insitute in English).
CEGEP is sort of like a community college. It offers continuing education, adult learning, trades certificates and 3 year diplomas.
It also offers 2-year "Academic diplomas" which are required to attend university in the province, and university degrees are accomplished in 3 years.
So the overall time to get a uni degree is the same, but its split with 3 years at HS, 2 years at College and then 3 at Uni.
In Quebec, university is heavily subsidized already but CEGEP attendance is free (or at least was initially designed to be), so the advantages are...
An additional year of free post-secondary...
Removing the older students from high schools...
And there are ten times as many CEGEPS as Universities, so there is one within commuting distance of almost every community in Quebec.
This allows for a smoother transition into adulthood. Also, the two year academic diploma is more generic than choosing a major at the age of 18 without losing the Academic standards.
It also de-stigmatizes people who choose College over University, because everyone has to go to college
I think breaking down racial disparities in access to higher education would be a priority for a Stokely Carmichael government I mean a Florida Labour Party government, and something like this would go along way in reducing barriers while maintaining quality.
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Not nearly as many as would want to live there afterward.
Incidentally, it seems like many people in the late 19th century (who hadn't been to Florida) were confused as to what kind of climate they'd find there. "Naples" (on the southwest Gulf coast) got its name because of advertisers claiming the climate to be Mediterranean. One of the first railways was called the Florida Tropical.
Most of Florida is actually firmly in the humid subtropics, so distinctly not Mediterranean (too humid/wet in the summer) or Tropical (too cold in the winter). Although the southeast does have a tropical climate:
The Sports Post (Leisure and Recreation in Florida to 1914)
Ok so I've discussed this to some extent in two non-threadmarked posts, so might as well get this one of my chest. (The education post is still coming)
In the early days of Florida society, like in Britain, Canada, or Australia, the only "formal" sport to be played is cricket. As in the West Indies, the sport was not only the preserve of the white plantation-owning class, but it also rapidly grew in popularity among the enslaved population, not least of which because enslaved persons who can Throw A Ball Real Good are often to find themselves on their plantation owner's team, and therefore not being worked as hard, or as long, getting some travel perks and fed better.
Cricket was popular for gambling, which was widespread among the "leisured" class who have the privilege of owning large estates without having to be often engaged in physical labour on them. Card games were fashionable for gambling, and races of various kinds. The 1830s brought a variety of football codes, still not quite differentiated between rugby and football. It also brought the end of slavery, and the diversification of the formerly plantation-dominated economy.
With access to the southern US agricultural economy, raising of cattle and horses for export would increase from this time. These exports would halt entirely during the American Civil War; but they would boom in the years following, as the south had been devastated and the need for animals vastly outstripped domestic supply.
So, possibly before even the Kentucky Derby is first run (in 1872), we see the emergence of Florida Derby, which would remain an important part of the St. Augustine social calendar into the 21st century, and in the second half of the twentieth century, increasingly became seen as the preeminent upscale fashion event for women of colour in the Americas.
The first codified football rules were written in Britain in the 1850s through 1870s, as the old boys from various public schools (meaning, in North America, private schools) wrote laws that would allow them to play against each other at University. This process was mostly completed by 1871, with Football and Rugby being strongly differentiated to observers at them time and recognisable to modern observers. In England, this was followed by the first FA Cup season in 1871-72.
The first football Cup outside of the Home Nations IOTL was the Dominion FA Cup (in Canada), first played in 1877. Florida's started only a few seasons after. After the Football League was launched with 12 professional clubs in the Northwest of England in 1888-89, it didn't take long for Florida to follow, although the League, based in and around St. Augustine initially, would begin as an amateur league and remain semi-professional decades, even as the geographical scope of the league expanded and the quality of play improved.
Similar to the process that happened contemporaneously with football, A Montreal dentist had similarly codified the traditional Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) game of tewa'araton, calling it by the French name for the stick used, La Crosse. It's position as an indigenous game led to an explosion in popularity after Canadian confederation, and by the 1880s Lacrosse was the most popular spectator sport in Canada, and had become quite popular in the Northeastern USA at the collegiate level as well. Lacrosse clubs were formed in Manchester, England and Melbourne, Australia by 1876. Florida, with a substantial Canadian expatriate population, is unlikely to escape this trend and in fact probably sees a Lacrosse club formed earlier than 1876. Because of its proximity to the East Coast heartland of the Sport, and because the indigenous people of North Florida play a similar game, Lacrosse would develop a level of popularity in Florida which was greater than that in England or Australia, and prior to the outbreak of World War I, would have been one of the major spectator sports in the country.
The end of the American Civil War brought about a rise in the popularity of baseball throughout the USA, as well as an rapid increase in the number of American tourists and investors in Florida, which contributed to its increasing popularity around this time, as well. However, the possibility of joining cross-border leagues for Floridian teams was eliminated by the introduction of racial segregation in pro baseball in the USA during the 1880s and 1890s. From this time, because of Florida's small population and lack of formal segregation, Floridian baseball teams would compete in the various leagues at the time which were created to for teams featuring non-white athletes (and crowds).
American Football gradually developed out of Rugby Union, after Harvard were first exposed during a match against McGill (the legend goes that the Harvard Football Club arranged a match against the McGill Football Club, and when McGill arrived in Harvard with 15 men and an oval ball, they had to adapt to the smaller field of the Harvard common, and reduce the number of men to 11 as Harvard was actually a football (soccer) team. This is supported by the fact that the modern NFL field is 120 yards (including end zones) by 53 yards - the exact dimensions of Harvard common, and significantly shorter and narrower than a CFL field).
During the earliest period, from 1869-1882 inclusive, the sport was largely rugby union, but rules introduced by Walter Camp from 1883 marked a turning point for the sport, as "touchdowns" became more valued than goals, "down-and-distance" requirements replaced scrums, and eventually the forward pass was introduced. Meanwhile, the sport spread from its Ivy League heartland. The first match played in the south was in Virginia in 1873. A university in Kentucky organized a team in 1880. By 1888, it was played in North Carolina, 1890 in Tenneessee, and by 1894 a Southern Collegiate Athletic Association was formed including teams from Alabama and Georgia. Again, however, due to the segregated nature of these American universities, who were also substantially larger than their Floridian equivalents, the move toward adaption of "American Rugby Football" is significantly muted in Florida by comparison with Canada, where a hybrid version of Rugby-Gridiron became one of the country's dominant sports in the early decades of the twentieth century.
Sport was, by the turn of the century, often divided by class, location or ethnicity, with American sports most popular in the areas along the border, rugby and lacrosse the domain of the universities, horse racing predominant amongst the upper classes, and football (soccer) gaining in popularity in the industrializing new towns that were springing up in Central Florida and around Tampa Bay. This trend would be exacerbated after the turn of the century with the influx of European migrants. Cricket, although centered at the St. Augustine Cricket Ground, enjoyed a level of popularity everywhere and amongst every class and race (with the notable exception of recent European immigrants) that allowed it to remain the "National Game" long after its popularity was eclipsed. (Although as of 1914, it's still the most popular sport in the country).
In the early days of Florida society, like in Britain, Canada, or Australia, the only "formal" sport to be played is cricket. As in the West Indies, the sport was not only the preserve of the white plantation-owning class, but it also rapidly grew in popularity among the enslaved population, not least of which because enslaved persons who can Throw A Ball Real Good are often to find themselves on their plantation owner's team, and therefore not being worked as hard, or as long, getting some travel perks and fed better.
Cricket was popular for gambling, which was widespread among the "leisured" class who have the privilege of owning large estates without having to be often engaged in physical labour on them. Card games were fashionable for gambling, and races of various kinds. The 1830s brought a variety of football codes, still not quite differentiated between rugby and football. It also brought the end of slavery, and the diversification of the formerly plantation-dominated economy.
With access to the southern US agricultural economy, raising of cattle and horses for export would increase from this time. These exports would halt entirely during the American Civil War; but they would boom in the years following, as the south had been devastated and the need for animals vastly outstripped domestic supply.
So, possibly before even the Kentucky Derby is first run (in 1872), we see the emergence of Florida Derby, which would remain an important part of the St. Augustine social calendar into the 21st century, and in the second half of the twentieth century, increasingly became seen as the preeminent upscale fashion event for women of colour in the Americas.
The first codified football rules were written in Britain in the 1850s through 1870s, as the old boys from various public schools (meaning, in North America, private schools) wrote laws that would allow them to play against each other at University. This process was mostly completed by 1871, with Football and Rugby being strongly differentiated to observers at them time and recognisable to modern observers. In England, this was followed by the first FA Cup season in 1871-72.
The first football Cup outside of the Home Nations IOTL was the Dominion FA Cup (in Canada), first played in 1877. Florida's started only a few seasons after. After the Football League was launched with 12 professional clubs in the Northwest of England in 1888-89, it didn't take long for Florida to follow, although the League, based in and around St. Augustine initially, would begin as an amateur league and remain semi-professional decades, even as the geographical scope of the league expanded and the quality of play improved.
Similar to the process that happened contemporaneously with football, A Montreal dentist had similarly codified the traditional Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) game of tewa'araton, calling it by the French name for the stick used, La Crosse. It's position as an indigenous game led to an explosion in popularity after Canadian confederation, and by the 1880s Lacrosse was the most popular spectator sport in Canada, and had become quite popular in the Northeastern USA at the collegiate level as well. Lacrosse clubs were formed in Manchester, England and Melbourne, Australia by 1876. Florida, with a substantial Canadian expatriate population, is unlikely to escape this trend and in fact probably sees a Lacrosse club formed earlier than 1876. Because of its proximity to the East Coast heartland of the Sport, and because the indigenous people of North Florida play a similar game, Lacrosse would develop a level of popularity in Florida which was greater than that in England or Australia, and prior to the outbreak of World War I, would have been one of the major spectator sports in the country.
The end of the American Civil War brought about a rise in the popularity of baseball throughout the USA, as well as an rapid increase in the number of American tourists and investors in Florida, which contributed to its increasing popularity around this time, as well. However, the possibility of joining cross-border leagues for Floridian teams was eliminated by the introduction of racial segregation in pro baseball in the USA during the 1880s and 1890s. From this time, because of Florida's small population and lack of formal segregation, Floridian baseball teams would compete in the various leagues at the time which were created to for teams featuring non-white athletes (and crowds).
American Football gradually developed out of Rugby Union, after Harvard were first exposed during a match against McGill (the legend goes that the Harvard Football Club arranged a match against the McGill Football Club, and when McGill arrived in Harvard with 15 men and an oval ball, they had to adapt to the smaller field of the Harvard common, and reduce the number of men to 11 as Harvard was actually a football (soccer) team. This is supported by the fact that the modern NFL field is 120 yards (including end zones) by 53 yards - the exact dimensions of Harvard common, and significantly shorter and narrower than a CFL field).
During the earliest period, from 1869-1882 inclusive, the sport was largely rugby union, but rules introduced by Walter Camp from 1883 marked a turning point for the sport, as "touchdowns" became more valued than goals, "down-and-distance" requirements replaced scrums, and eventually the forward pass was introduced. Meanwhile, the sport spread from its Ivy League heartland. The first match played in the south was in Virginia in 1873. A university in Kentucky organized a team in 1880. By 1888, it was played in North Carolina, 1890 in Tenneessee, and by 1894 a Southern Collegiate Athletic Association was formed including teams from Alabama and Georgia. Again, however, due to the segregated nature of these American universities, who were also substantially larger than their Floridian equivalents, the move toward adaption of "American Rugby Football" is significantly muted in Florida by comparison with Canada, where a hybrid version of Rugby-Gridiron became one of the country's dominant sports in the early decades of the twentieth century.
Sport was, by the turn of the century, often divided by class, location or ethnicity, with American sports most popular in the areas along the border, rugby and lacrosse the domain of the universities, horse racing predominant amongst the upper classes, and football (soccer) gaining in popularity in the industrializing new towns that were springing up in Central Florida and around Tampa Bay. This trend would be exacerbated after the turn of the century with the influx of European migrants. Cricket, although centered at the St. Augustine Cricket Ground, enjoyed a level of popularity everywhere and amongst every class and race (with the notable exception of recent European immigrants) that allowed it to remain the "National Game" long after its popularity was eclipsed. (Although as of 1914, it's still the most popular sport in the country).
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Some Notes on Education.
IOTL, Zephaniah Kingsley Sr was among 7 Loyalists settlers of New Brunswick who signed a petition requesting the establishment of an Academy for the new colony of New Brunswick. It followed a similar development course to what would become the University of Toronto, and serves as a model for how early higher education may play out in Florida.
ITTL, Zephaniah Kingsley is in Florida and not New Brunswick. Florida's population at the time is similar to New Brunswick's, however the New Brunswick settler population is predominately European, whereas Europeans are only around 1/3 of Florida's population.
Still, the early days are likely to be similar - and so an Academy of Liberal Arts and Sciences is founded in St. Augustine in the 1780s or 1790s. In the first half of the 19th century, it is likely to gain a charter from the colonial legislature, allowing it to become the College of St. Augustine, before it obtains a Royal Charter and becomes King's College, St. Augustine. Ironically, shortly after receiving Royal Charter, the Legislature is likely to be transformed into a non-denominational college by colonial legislature.
Below this level was initially private instruction, often supported by philanthropy or religious institutions. When the legislature grants a charter to the College in the early 1800s, it is also likely to establish a "Grammar School" for each of the Floridian districts (in Pensacola, St. Mark's, St. Augustine and New Smyrna) which serve to educate the elite of the colony (and the West Indies more broadly) and prepare them for attendance at the College.
IOTL, the first Royal Charter for a dissenting religion was granted to in 1844 to Victoria College, a Methodist institution that is now part of the University of Toronto.
By the turn of the century, the maritime provinces would have Collefes for Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, several for Catholics of the Anglo and Francophone variety, as well as Dalhousie which was officially non-denominational but founded by and associated with Presbyterians.
Quebec likewise had separate Anglo and Francophone Catholic colleges, a nondenominational/Presbyterian College (McGill), as well as an Anglican institution (Bishop's).
Ontario had all these represented as well as, uniquely, a bilingual Catholic institution in Ottawa, an outright Presbyterian university at Queen's, and 2 Methodist universities, one for British Methodists and one for American methodists founded a decade later, as Methodism was the predominant religion in Ontario at the time.
Following this, I would expect Florida, by the turn of the century, to have, in addition to the University if St. Augustine (formerly King's College), likely colleges for at least the Methodist and Baptist communities. Probably 2 or more Catholic colleges, including a French language or bilingual one at Pensacola (which will become the University of Pensacola in time), as well as I believe at least one "Historically black" college affiliated with the African Methodist Episcopal Church. A Presbyterian college is possible, but I think a nondenominational college is more likely.
Any of these religious colleges in the St. Augustine area would likely be slowly incorporated into the UofSA, as happened in Toronto. Also, as in Toronto, when the legislative assembly "secularized" (really nondenominationalized as it was still very Christian) the U of T, upset Anglicans would create in the following decades two institutions for the elite sons of the colony, the High-Church Trinity College in Toronto and the Low Church Huron College (eventually U of Western Ontsrio), quickly nicknamed "Country Club U".
The population likely won't be sufficient for two colleges in Florida, bu especially as Florida will draw students from the elite of the West Indies as well, I suspect that a Trinity or UWO style Anglixan institution might form, to try to emulate Oxbridge where the UofSA is more like the U of London.
General public education came to the forefront after the abolition of slavery, as we have seen the several prominent abolitionists felt that education must go hand in hand with emancipation.
The Afro-Floridians themselves, as largely Evangelical Christians, also emphasize education for biblical literacy, as well as for social advancement.
Each Church likely develops it's own network of schools, but after emancipation the impetus for systematized education is greatly increased. The increasingly industrialization would contribute to this as well.
We may even see a system of government funded public schools develop in Florida before they did in Ontario (1850), and certainly before they did in England (1870s). Meanwhile, although Florida is behind the northern USA, education , especially for people of colour, gains significantly in Florida on their Georgian and Alabamian counterparts.
This will make Florida a draw for African-American students, especially in the decades after emancipation.
As for segregated schools - I don't suspect that there will be wide-scale segregation on a "national" level, but as in Canada, "separation" by religion, race and language could absolutely exist in individual school boards. Ontario's last segregated school for black students closed in 1965.
As the wealthiest people of the colonies avoid sending their children to the public schools at his point, and Florida's long history of diversity is likely to reduce some ethnic and racial tension, I can see segregation being defacto eliminated slowly over the decades of the early twentieth century if not earlier.
ITTL, Zephaniah Kingsley is in Florida and not New Brunswick. Florida's population at the time is similar to New Brunswick's, however the New Brunswick settler population is predominately European, whereas Europeans are only around 1/3 of Florida's population.
Still, the early days are likely to be similar - and so an Academy of Liberal Arts and Sciences is founded in St. Augustine in the 1780s or 1790s. In the first half of the 19th century, it is likely to gain a charter from the colonial legislature, allowing it to become the College of St. Augustine, before it obtains a Royal Charter and becomes King's College, St. Augustine. Ironically, shortly after receiving Royal Charter, the Legislature is likely to be transformed into a non-denominational college by colonial legislature.
Below this level was initially private instruction, often supported by philanthropy or religious institutions. When the legislature grants a charter to the College in the early 1800s, it is also likely to establish a "Grammar School" for each of the Floridian districts (in Pensacola, St. Mark's, St. Augustine and New Smyrna) which serve to educate the elite of the colony (and the West Indies more broadly) and prepare them for attendance at the College.
IOTL, the first Royal Charter for a dissenting religion was granted to in 1844 to Victoria College, a Methodist institution that is now part of the University of Toronto.
By the turn of the century, the maritime provinces would have Collefes for Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, several for Catholics of the Anglo and Francophone variety, as well as Dalhousie which was officially non-denominational but founded by and associated with Presbyterians.
Quebec likewise had separate Anglo and Francophone Catholic colleges, a nondenominational/Presbyterian College (McGill), as well as an Anglican institution (Bishop's).
Ontario had all these represented as well as, uniquely, a bilingual Catholic institution in Ottawa, an outright Presbyterian university at Queen's, and 2 Methodist universities, one for British Methodists and one for American methodists founded a decade later, as Methodism was the predominant religion in Ontario at the time.
Following this, I would expect Florida, by the turn of the century, to have, in addition to the University if St. Augustine (formerly King's College), likely colleges for at least the Methodist and Baptist communities. Probably 2 or more Catholic colleges, including a French language or bilingual one at Pensacola (which will become the University of Pensacola in time), as well as I believe at least one "Historically black" college affiliated with the African Methodist Episcopal Church. A Presbyterian college is possible, but I think a nondenominational college is more likely.
Any of these religious colleges in the St. Augustine area would likely be slowly incorporated into the UofSA, as happened in Toronto. Also, as in Toronto, when the legislative assembly "secularized" (really nondenominationalized as it was still very Christian) the U of T, upset Anglicans would create in the following decades two institutions for the elite sons of the colony, the High-Church Trinity College in Toronto and the Low Church Huron College (eventually U of Western Ontsrio), quickly nicknamed "Country Club U".
The population likely won't be sufficient for two colleges in Florida, bu especially as Florida will draw students from the elite of the West Indies as well, I suspect that a Trinity or UWO style Anglixan institution might form, to try to emulate Oxbridge where the UofSA is more like the U of London.
General public education came to the forefront after the abolition of slavery, as we have seen the several prominent abolitionists felt that education must go hand in hand with emancipation.
The Afro-Floridians themselves, as largely Evangelical Christians, also emphasize education for biblical literacy, as well as for social advancement.
Each Church likely develops it's own network of schools, but after emancipation the impetus for systematized education is greatly increased. The increasingly industrialization would contribute to this as well.
We may even see a system of government funded public schools develop in Florida before they did in Ontario (1850), and certainly before they did in England (1870s). Meanwhile, although Florida is behind the northern USA, education , especially for people of colour, gains significantly in Florida on their Georgian and Alabamian counterparts.
This will make Florida a draw for African-American students, especially in the decades after emancipation.
As for segregated schools - I don't suspect that there will be wide-scale segregation on a "national" level, but as in Canada, "separation" by religion, race and language could absolutely exist in individual school boards. Ontario's last segregated school for black students closed in 1965.
As the wealthiest people of the colonies avoid sending their children to the public schools at his point, and Florida's long history of diversity is likely to reduce some ethnic and racial tension, I can see segregation being defacto eliminated slowly over the decades of the early twentieth century if not earlier.
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This might be a little late for this but does Florida include New Orleans as well (which is on both sides of the Mississippi River IIRC) since West Florida extended all the way to the Mississippi? And I’m assuming its northern boundary spans all the way to the colonial border of Georgia. I may be wrong though.
Hey welcome!
Canon at the moment is that West Florida west of the Perdido and north of the 31st parallel was given up in the Treaty of 1820-something, because Mobile was taken by the Spanish during the ARW and then by the Americans in the Wo1812. (And so the Americans may have even declined to retreat from thr areas they held).
Northern border goes from thr St Mary's to the 31st parallel probably and then west to the proclamation line.
Mississippi and Alabama are also divided north south rather than east west, so Mississippi is north of Alabama, which otherwise still exist.
It's all kinda vague though, so you are encouraged to provide reasons why you think this should be otherwise if you are so inclined!
Its never really too late for anything in this thread, once its completed the whole thing is going to have some major retcons.
Okay, I may be jumping the gun here, but you've made a really interesting timeline here and it's been occupying my thoughts a lot, so.
Independence.
I'm pretty sure it's going to come after the world wars, though that depends on a few things. One is that, while in Florida race may be a fairly minor issue, in the wider empire it most definitely is not. And so, when the wars come around, and men from Florida join the war, I think that is going to blow up in their faces.
Because you mentioned before, how there are some that see themselves as white there that we may not, and which the British definitely won't.
A lot of the Canadian identity, at least as I was taught it, got it's start during the war. It was a very traumatic, but also extremely formative moment. And the experience of much of the Floridians- including the upper class ones, is going to be one of extreme mistreatment and discrimination.
This, of course, depends on the circumstances, but if the Floridian's are a part of the war then I see this experience as being pretty likely.
So, following the war, I think many men will return home to Florida radicalized by their mistreatment, and it won't be limited to only the poor and underclasses. This probably results in something of an independence movement, maybe spearheaded by the Labour Party, which could lead several interesting directions. It may even see some support from the Liberals.
Would Florida gain independence after the first war, though? Not unless it was violently I would say, but there would be a certain degree of bad feeling during the period, opening up a lot of discourse on the subject. (Joining America is probably never entertained, considering the demographics.)
And hey, a Socialist Floridian Republic, or maybe the Muscogee Socialist Republic, would be interesting, though given America is right next door, fairly short lived.
But in then comes the great depression, and World War 2. An interesting idea is maybe the local Floridian legislature refusing to join the war, maybe if under the control of the Labour Party at the time, influenced by their ideology and their past experiences. But either way, in this scenario I don't see Florida sticking in the empire for very long at all after WW2, probably at the same time as India.
But maybe not, after all, I haven't put in as much thought as you have into this timeline, so.
If this is jumping the gun way too much, then sorry I'll shut up, I just had this on my mind.
Independence.
I'm pretty sure it's going to come after the world wars, though that depends on a few things. One is that, while in Florida race may be a fairly minor issue, in the wider empire it most definitely is not. And so, when the wars come around, and men from Florida join the war, I think that is going to blow up in their faces.
Because you mentioned before, how there are some that see themselves as white there that we may not, and which the British definitely won't.
A lot of the Canadian identity, at least as I was taught it, got it's start during the war. It was a very traumatic, but also extremely formative moment. And the experience of much of the Floridians- including the upper class ones, is going to be one of extreme mistreatment and discrimination.
This, of course, depends on the circumstances, but if the Floridian's are a part of the war then I see this experience as being pretty likely.
So, following the war, I think many men will return home to Florida radicalized by their mistreatment, and it won't be limited to only the poor and underclasses. This probably results in something of an independence movement, maybe spearheaded by the Labour Party, which could lead several interesting directions. It may even see some support from the Liberals.
Would Florida gain independence after the first war, though? Not unless it was violently I would say, but there would be a certain degree of bad feeling during the period, opening up a lot of discourse on the subject. (Joining America is probably never entertained, considering the demographics.)
And hey, a Socialist Floridian Republic, or maybe the Muscogee Socialist Republic, would be interesting, though given America is right next door, fairly short lived.
But in then comes the great depression, and World War 2. An interesting idea is maybe the local Floridian legislature refusing to join the war, maybe if under the control of the Labour Party at the time, influenced by their ideology and their past experiences. But either way, in this scenario I don't see Florida sticking in the empire for very long at all after WW2, probably at the same time as India.
But maybe not, after all, I haven't put in as much thought as you have into this timeline, so.
If this is jumping the gun way too much, then sorry I'll shut up, I just had this on my mind.
No Jumping the gun here! Any input is appreciated thanks. I'll respond when I've had some time to digest this fully and analyze. But you've definitely touched on some things that are true! Particularly the treatment of people of colour during World War I.
Hm, well, treatment is partly going to depend on what service Floridians are in. Assuming Florida has established a Royal Floridian Navy, they would be working alongside the Royal Canadian Navy to protect the east coast of North America from German U-boats, with only those that protect convoys and therefore have regular layovers in "the mother country" experiencing the joys of their racist colonialist attitudes. Apparently blacks from the US were treated better because they didn't quite fit in the colonial hierarchy, so maybe some would try to pass themselves off as American seamen.
I imagine land troops would get somewhat similar treatment as Indian troops did, which includes ideas about putting them in theaters where the high command thinks they are "more adapted to the climate" so the ANZAC troops might be joined by Floridians
I imagine land troops would get somewhat similar treatment as Indian troops did, which includes ideas about putting them in theaters where the high command thinks they are "more adapted to the climate" so the ANZAC troops might be joined by Floridians
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True. The navy will probably get better treatment, if only because they will mostly be sticking to their own ships and patrols, and so there is just less of a chance that they interact with someone who would discriminate against them. So you could have a bit of a conflict between the navy and the army.
However I don't think that will completely mitigate the circumstances of the situation.
Although it does lead to the idea of most non-white inhabitants of Florida trying to join the navy rather than the army, due to the better treatment and less segregation, maybe leading to an expansion of the Flureggion fleet?
Though that seems unlikely and would probably depend on a bunch of other factors that I'm not sure on, like if Britain would allow that in the first place.
I think I forgot to thank you for your kind words and for your input on your first message, so thank you!
Still rattling these different things around in my brain to see how it shakes out.
Norman Manley - Wikipedia
Norman Manley (future Jamaican PM) served in the Royal Field Artillery during WWI. It will be interesting to see what his experience was. He did, in fact, go on to found the People's National Party, which, despite it's name, is actually the social democratic left- foil to the Jamaican Labour Party's centrism.
In terms of the effect that land ownership and property qualifications - it could be huge. Comparing to Upper Canada in the late 19th century, evidence suggests that about 40% of Black families met property qualifications, as opposed to 70% of whites.
So in a society where 40% of the population is white...28% are whites who meet property qualifications. But only 24% are blacks who meet property qualifications. The property qualification is going, rightly, come under attack.
So in a society where 40% of the population is white...28% are whites who meet property qualifications. But only 24% are blacks who meet property qualifications. The property qualification is going, rightly, come under attack.
Oh, no problem, you've made a really interesting timeline here.I think I forgot to thank you for your kind words and for your input on your first message, so thank you!
Still rattling these different things around in my brain to see how it shakes out.
Norman Manley - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Norman Manley (future Jamaican PM) served in the Royal Field Artillery during WWI. It will be interesting to see what his experience was. He did, in fact, go on to found the People's National Party, which, despite it's name, is actually the social democratic left- foil to the Jamaican Labour Party's centrism.
I wasn't able to find much on Norman's time in the army, but I have found other stuff about Caribbean Britons joining the war. generally they were paid much less and mistreated much more, and were usually sent to locations outside of Europe. Some, though, did fight in Europe, and even won medals for their service.
However a main difference I can see in regards to Florida is that, as a colony more like Canada, they might have a semi-independent army, unlike the Caribbean and African men of our history who joined the British army directly, often buying tickets to cross the ocean in order to enlist. With an established military force, forced by their close contact with America, Florida would be much more likely to fight as a coordinated unit with it's own officers, though ultimately still under the control of the British.
However they are still likely to be mistreated somewhat, if not as individuals then by being seen as more disposable than the British forces, and the forces of the majority white colonies, though less so than the other colonies.
I'd think the number would actually be somewhat higher in Florida, though? Especially West Florida, where black and mixed-race families have dominated the economy for most of it's history. I could see this either leading to a slightly more equal, though still quasi-noble legislature. Or, worse, it could lead to an even stricter land and property requirement, excluding basically everyone and being almost explicitly discriminatory, probably leading to many social problems, although given the increased means of the black and mixed-race population there will be a significant amount of pushback against this much earlier, maybe even leading to an early liberalisation of property laws than it would otherwise have.
It could be. It's the relative ratios I was most interested in. The mixed-race families in West Florida identify predominately as creole or white.
One interesting thing (sorry bouncing back to your original idea here) is that it seems like one of the main ways in which people of colour were discriminated against during WWI in the Imperial forces was that they were generally considered to be unsuitable for combat or front lines - which may actually be a blessing in disguise. Not even really that disguised.
I'm comparing to Canada and the BWIs...and yeah, Florida likely develops it's own military (even if initially called a militia) as the Brits look to remove soldiers in the decades after the War of 1812.
Now, Canada didn't actually send it's military into WWI, it created a new Canadian Expeditionary Force.
And seeing as Florida's population is likely lower than Jamaica's during WWI, while it is certainly a possibility that they have their own FEF, it's also just as likely to have Flurregions serve in the West India Regiments.
Or perhaps, most likely, those with wealth, connections, or who are white enough may get into British Forces proper (or the CEF for that matter), while those without connections, money, or the right complexion end up in the WIR?
Yeah, like I said I haven't done as much research as you on this, obviously, but that makes sense.
White or white-passing men are able to join the CEF, while everyone else joins the BWIR or the Flurregion Navy, if they want to help in the fight. The BWIF did see some conflict, mostly in the middle east, but overall throughout the war non-white Flurregions don't see much conflict, except occasionally in the fleet, while their white counterparts fight directly on the western front. Maybe even as a part of the Canadian forces later in the war, though given the likely small number of Flurregion white soldiers and their dispersal throughout the CEF it's unlike. Maybe they formed their own groups within the CEF, allowing for this, but probably not.
This is actually kind of worrying, though interesting, because this separation might lead to a certain amount of anger from the white soldiers against other races, as they would be seen as having not actually fought in the same war. I think this probably results in a, like, homegrown fascist movement? Coming at the end of the Great War, at the same time as the rise of nationalist and racist thought, I can see such a thing happening.
It would likely stay pretty small, but it's an interesting aspect of the whole thing.
I truly appreciate all the input. This thread has greatly benefited from all the readers who have had suggestions. I try not to "guide" the story but rather take all ideas together to try to see what a "consensus" might look like.
One thing you're absolutely spot on is that the varied experience, by race and class, of Floridians during WWI will contribute to a variety of societal changes or pressures in the following decades.
As you say, WWi was important for developing a sense of nationalism in the white settler colonies. And you're right - in Florida, theres a very real chance the cumulative experience of WWI will be developing a new sense of "race" - or how it differs in Florida from the wider Anglosphere.
I'm also thinking, that because the recent European immigrants are more likely to volunteer to fight than the Floridians, (at least in the early days as their homelands declare war on old enemies), and because the people of colour are disproportionately kept from the front lines, as well as a couple of other reasons, the WWI years will see a slight reversal of the decades long trend of whitening. Especially since during the war, many black Americans and a few West Indians move to Florida to take the jobs of the departing soldiers.