Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

Really love the latest update, as well as the rise of the new Conservative party. Mind you, I probably wouldn't have gone with the name Conservative Party USA myself (American Conservative Party rolls off the tongue so much better), but it's nonetheless great to see it rise. However, like previously said, I wouldn't be surprised to see that party get somewhat divided between Libertarian conservatives and the more crazy Wallace/Falwell conservative types. Which one ultimately comes out on top will be interesting, though I don't we'll see it become as major a third party for a least a decade because of it's more racist origin. The flock of Libertarian Conservatives will hopefully help calm down the party if you will and truly make it a more major player in possibly the 1976 or 1980 elections. Nonetheless, the parties origin is going haunt it for years to come I suspect.

Also, I quite find myself curious to see who will cross over into the new party. I'm not 100% sure Reagan would, at least not at first, though if he does it either won't be until it starts to become more Libertarian or he leads said Libertarian change. Nixon is also someone I'm not sure on what he'd decide to do.

Actually, speaking of Nixon, this Conservative Party may just be the death kneel to Nixon's Southern Strategy and his hopes of a 1968 win. So I guess goodbye Nixon presidency and Watergate.
 
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President Lincoln...I would urge caution in how you portray these men. There is always the temptation to turn men like George Wallace and the Rev. Jerry Falwell into cartoon-character villains. Although I abhor many of their stands and convictions, I hope that you will keep their portrayal realistic for the sake of the plausibility of this outstanding and very entertaining timeline.
I hate to burst your bubble... but Falwell was essentially a Southern-fried cult leader in all but name. No historically honest TL is going to meet what you would consider a "realistic" portrayal.
 
President Lincoln...I would urge caution in how you portray these men. There is always the temptation to turn men like George Wallace and the Rev. Jerry Falwell into cartoon-character villains. Although I abhor many of their stands and convictions, I hope that you will keep their portrayal realistic for the sake of the plausibility of this outstanding and very entertaining timeline.
That hurts
 
President Lincoln...I would urge caution in how you portray these men. There is always the temptation to turn men like George Wallace and the Rev. Jerry Falwell into cartoon-character villains. Although I abhor many of their stands and convictions, I hope that you will keep their portrayal realistic for the sake of the plausibility of this outstanding and very entertaining timeline.
If we're being honest, Jerry Falwell was a bad Russian accent and constantly saying he needed to look for 'Moose and Squirrel' away from being a real life bad Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain in OTL.
 
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I hate to burst your bubble... but Falwell was essentially a Southern-fried cult leader in all but name. No historically honest TL is going to meet what you would consider a "realistic" portrayal.

One man's cult is another's respected world religion. You are entitled to your opinion but as someone who is old enough to remember the years in question, it is my opinion that the subject is a bit more complicated and can be portrayed with more nuance. The wording used to describe Jerry Falwell and his church implies several biases that many share on this forum, i.e. that all religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that all Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists. If one says that "some" religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that "some" Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists one would, of course, be accurate. But to paint all religious people and Southern Americans (and Baptists for that matter) with this broad brush is, in my opinion, cartoonish.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell is described as "bombastic." That is the usual description of the typical cliché, racist Southern Protestant pastor. I would ask, has the author ever actually heard the Rev. Jerry Falwell speak? I am not a Baptist but I have access to Youtube and wanted to know how he actually sounded. His speaking delivery is very calm. He doesn't even speak with a Southern accent, which is what one would expect from a "bombastic" Southern preacher. There are preachers from many other denominations that can fairly be described as having a speaking style that is "bombastic." Jerry Falwell isn't one of them. Has the author listened to the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr's classic speech "I have a dream?" It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest speeches of the Twentieth Century. The delivery style is that used by many Southern American ministers of many denominations of the period and isn't just restricted to African-American ministers. I'd say there is a bit of "bombast" in his delivery style. But one cannot deny that it is very inspiring. Jerry Falwell delivery style is very warm and reasonable, and, whether one agrees with the actual content of what he saying, you can see why he attracted the following that he did. But "bombastic" he ain't.

The author describes the founding membership of the Thomas Road Baptist Church as "thirty four other disaffected evangelicals." How does the author know this? What is his definition of "disaffected?" He implies the sole motivation for the founding of the church was racism. How does he know this? The conservatives of the time were clearly upset with more than just desegregation. They were concerned with the erosion of Biblical morality in a society that they perceived as abandoning God. I suspect the author has either a Catholic background or has some familiarity with Catholicism. He reveals this by having George Wallace address Rev. Falwell as "Father," which was something the anti-Catholic Protestant world abhorred. He would have more naturally addressed him as "Reverend" or "Pastor.

The dominant religion of the American South is Baptist even though so many of the attitudes and mores of many Southerners are inherited from their fighting Scots-Irish Calvinist Presbyterian ancestors. I will leave it to historians to debate the influence of New England Puritans on them. Incidentally, the author makes reference to the founding of New England calling the founders of the Plymouth Colony "Puritans." Many historians prefer the term "separatists" using the term "puritan" for the founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the Great Migration that began a decade after the founding of Plymouth in 1620. My sense is the Pilgrims were more radical than the classic Puritans and wanted to separate themselves from the Anglican Church which they considered a lost cause, whereas the Puritans only wanted to purify it and only left because of opposition to their ideas by those in power.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. were both Baptists. The core doctrines of both men's faith were the same, yet Falwell is "bad" and is a "southern-fried cult leader," but Martin Luther King, Jr. is "good." As the grandfather of three African-American grandchildren (who are the smartest and best-looking children in town) I absolutely abhor Falwell's and Wallace's support for segregation. Making Jerry Falwell and George Wallace into cartoonish evil men moves the story along, but, like all of us, both men were much more complicated people living in times quite unlike our own. By the end of their lives, both men were singing a different tune regarding racism (whether sincerely or insincerely I do not know). Perhaps the author could bring them to an earlier sincere conversion to righteousness in this timeline?
 
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One man's cult is another's respected world religion. You are entitled to your opinion but as someone who is old enough to remember the years in question, it is my opinion that the subject is a bit more complicated and can be portrayed with more nuance. The wording used to describe Jerry Falwell and his church implies several biases that many share on this forum, i.e. that all religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that all Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists. If one says that "some" religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that "some" Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists one would, of course, be accurate. But to paint all religious people and Southern Americans (and Baptists for that matter) with this broad brush is, in my opinion, cartoonish.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell is described as "bombastic." That is the usual description of the typical cliché, racist Southern Protestant pastor. I would ask, has the author ever actually heard the Rev. Jerry Falwell speak? I am not a Baptist but I have access to Youtube and wanted to know how he actually sounded. His speaking delivery is very calm. He doesn't even speak with a Southern accent, which is what one would expect from a "bombastic" Southern preacher. There are preachers from many other denominations that can fairly be described as having a speaking style that is "bombastic." Jerry Falwell isn't one of them. Has the author listened to the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr's classic speech "I have a dream?" It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest speeches of the Twentieth Century. The delivery style is that used by many Southern American ministers of many denominations of the period and isn't just restricted to African-American ministers. I'd say there is a bit of "bombast" in his delivery style. But one cannot deny that it is very inspiring. Jerry Falwell delivery style is very warm and reasonable, and, whether one agrees with the actual content of what he saying, you can see why he attracted the following that he did. But "bombastic" he ain't.

The author describes the founding membership of the Thomas Road Baptist Church as "thirty four other disaffected evangelicals." How does the author know this? What is his definition of "disaffected?" He implies the sole motivation for the founding of the church was racism. How does he know this? The conservatives of the time were clearly upset with more than just desegregation. They were concerned with the erosion of Biblical morality in a society that they perceived as abandoning God. I suspect the author has either a Catholic background or has some familiarity with Catholicism. He reveals this by having George Wallace address Rev. Falwell as "Father," which was something the anti-Catholic Protestant world abhorred. He would have more naturally addressed called him as "Reverend" or "Pastor.

The dominant religion of the American South is Baptist even though so many of the attitudes and mores of many Southerners are inherited from their fighting Scots-Irish Calvinist Presbyterian ancestors. I will leave it to historians to debate the influence of New England Puritans on them. Incidentally, the author makes reference to the founding of New England calling the founders of the Plymouth Colony "Puritans." Many historians prefer the term "separatists" using the term "puritan" for the founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the Great Migration that began a decade after the founding of Plymouth in 1620. My sense is the Pilgrims were more radical than the classic Puritans and wanted to separate themselves from the Anglican Church which they considered a lost cause, whereas the Puritans only wanted to purify it and only left because of opposition to their ideas by those in power.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. were both Baptists. The core doctrines of both men's faith were the same, yet Falwell is "bad" and is a "southern-fried cult leader," but Martin Luther King, Jr. is "good." As the grandfather of three African-American grandchildren (who are the smartest and best-looking children in town) I absolutely abhor Falwell's and Wallace's support for segregation. Making Jerry Falwell and George Wallace into cartoonish evil men moves the story along, but, like all of us, both men were much more complicated people living in times quite unlike our own. By the end of their lives, both men were singing a different tune regarding racism (whether sincerely or insincerely I do not know). Perhaps the author could bring them to an earlier sincere conversion to righteousness in this timeline?
Nothing against the TL itself, I'm certain.
 
No, Sir! I really like this timeline and think the author is doing an outstanding job. I hope that my minor nitpicking will not discourage him from continuing. If it does, I will delete Grandpa's grumpy observations!

I don’t think that’s necessary. From my point of view, it was necessary criticism that could help our author. As exceptionally skilled as he is, he’s only been here for about 6 months. Plus, you’re never too old to learn things.
 
I think bombastic is the right term to describe Falwell, but he is hardly unique in that, he's part of an American Protestant tradition that goes back to Jonathan Edwards during the First Great Awakening, and, yes, includes people like MLK. What sets him apart is actually that he also adhered to another American tradition - one of the freebooting entrepreneur, not bound by institutional constraints (IIRC he got kicked out of the SBC).

Calling hin southern-fried or the epitome of the Southern preacher is probably inaccurate, though, especially as the 1960s-1990s are precisely the era when Southern Christianity was probably most in flux, and old denominational cleavages got weaker and weaker.
 
Well, I caught up a lot faster than I thought would!
Awesome TL so far! Mildly disappointed that we didn't get a full Jeffrey Hunter/Pike Trek series, but other than that...
I don't even know where to start, from Marylin to Elvis+The Beatles+Jimmi freakin' Hendrix!
I guess if Quentin Tarantino is still born and becomes a filmmaker, and Pulp Fiction still happens, the (admittedly deleted) line about people being either "Beatles People" or "Elvis People" is a moot point ITTL! :D

I do have to admit...I knew from the title that Kennedy would probably live, but when Marylin was the PoD I honestly thought for a bit that JFK & Jackie were going to get divorced and JFK was going to marry Marylin Monroe! Having seen how everything's developed and how the Kennedy's are closer than ever, I have to say I've never been happier to be wrong!

I shall be watching this TL with great interest!

<snip>
The Rev. Jerry Falwell and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. were both Baptists. The core doctrines of both men's faith were the same, yet Falwell is "bad" and is a "southern-fried cult leader," but Martin Luther King, Jr. is "good." As the grandfather of three African-American grandchildren (who are the smartest and best-looking children in town) I absolutely abhor Falwell's and Wallace's support for segregation. Making Jerry Falwell and George Wallace into cartoonish evil men moves the story along, but, like all of us, both men were much more complicated people living in times quite unlike our own. By the end of their lives, both men were singing a different tune regarding racism (whether sincerely or insincerely I do not know). Perhaps the author could bring them to an earlier sincere conversion to righteousness in this timeline?
For that alone, I applaud your ability to be so generous to them. And it may very well be a personal failing of mine that I can't.
Because I don't believe that they were even remotely sincere in any "reform" they made later in their lives, nor that they ever could be.
They were too adamant and vehement in their racism for too damn long. The writing is already on the wall that such viewpoints are no-longer being accepted, if they truly wanted to reform the time was right after Wallace lost the first time in '64. But he didn't, and now as IOTL he's forming a third party to try again and get more people involved; only this time he isn't just sticking to the south, he's actively branching out and tainting others with being associated with him.
Pray for their redemption if you can, you're a better man than I for it; personally I'd rather see these two skidmarks on the underpants of society have a close, personal introduction to a bullet to the face before their words and actions can harm any more innocent people.
Maybe Mark David Chapman still wants to get his name in the history books?

All of that having been said, I'd love to see a viable 3rd (or even 4th) political party; the best thing that can possibly happen to the Conservative Party USA is for Wallace and Falwell to be ejected from it, with great vigor, as soon as possible.
 
Another bit of interesting analysis, Nerdman. A new conservative party is a strong possibility, and the GOP will need to react quickly to redefine itself if such an event comes to pass. Playing the middle certainly has its advantages, but its own unique set of challenges as well, and the Democrats will probably suffer the same casualties that they did in this period IOTL. The Strom Thurmond breed of Democrat throughout the south are likely to be the backbone of a new Conservative Party, if it focuses primarily on social, rather than economic issues.

Poor Chelsea :( Though I won't promise that Bill and Hillary's paths will never cross.

Would the Southern United States really relegate itself to failure to win general Presidential elections by becoming a Third Party that only represents the South, not winning votes anywhere else? I hope they try to mix into the Democratic Party again (not impossible) if the Democrats focus on economic issues and compromise on cultural issues (except on race, immigration and gender equality though, those are two nonnegotiables for the new Democratic Party of the 1960s). However, they'll be serious headaches for the Democratic Party in the long run in such a scenario.

I'm interested in a Hillary marrying Bill Clinton and gaining the presidency in the 1990s and beyond. Instead of Bill being in politics first, Hillary would instead take that place. If she plays her cards right, she can become President ITTL without the name recognition of Bill. Instead, in such a scenario, she becomes President, but because on her own, she worked for it, not because she got boosted by her husband's popularity in the party. It'd be cool to have a President with a famous Jazz player :D
 
Would the Southern United States really relegate itself to failure to win general Presidential elections by becoming a Third Party that only represents the South, not winning votes anywhere else? I hope they try to mix into the Democratic Party again (not impossible) if the Democrats focus on economic issues and compromise on cultural issues (except on race, immigration and gender equality though, those are two nonnegotiables for the new Democratic Party of the 1960s). However, they'll be serious headaches for the Democratic Party in the long run in such a scenario.
They just did. Here's the thing, socially conservative doesn't win you many votes, especially when it's their attitude of social conservative.
 
They just did. Here's the thing, socially conservative doesn't win you many votes, especially when it's their attitude of social conservative.

I'd rather say racism and sexism don't win you many votes. However, on having conservative stances on issues related to sex, abortion, etc. you can win over lots of Blacks, Latinos and other minorities, under the condition that you're not racist or xenophobic.
 

CalBear

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One man's cult is another's respected world religion. You are entitled to your opinion but as someone who is old enough to remember the years in question, it is my opinion that the subject is a bit more complicated and can be portrayed with more nuance. The wording used to describe Jerry Falwell and his church implies several biases that many share on this forum, i.e. that all religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that all Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists. If one says that "some" religious people are ignorant, reactionary morons, and that "some" Southern Americans are unreconstructed racists one would, of course, be accurate. But to paint all religious people and Southern Americans (and Baptists for that matter) with this broad brush is, in my opinion, cartoonish.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell is described as "bombastic." That is the usual description of the typical cliché, racist Southern Protestant pastor. I would ask, has the author ever actually heard the Rev. Jerry Falwell speak? I am not a Baptist but I have access to Youtube and wanted to know how he actually sounded. His speaking delivery is very calm. He doesn't even speak with a Southern accent, which is what one would expect from a "bombastic" Southern preacher. There are preachers from many other denominations that can fairly be described as having a speaking style that is "bombastic." Jerry Falwell isn't one of them. Has the author listened to the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr's classic speech "I have a dream?" It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest speeches of the Twentieth Century. The delivery style is that used by many Southern American ministers of many denominations of the period and isn't just restricted to African-American ministers. I'd say there is a bit of "bombast" in his delivery style. But one cannot deny that it is very inspiring. Jerry Falwell delivery style is very warm and reasonable, and, whether one agrees with the actual content of what he saying, you can see why he attracted the following that he did. But "bombastic" he ain't.

The author describes the founding membership of the Thomas Road Baptist Church as "thirty four other disaffected evangelicals." How does the author know this? What is his definition of "disaffected?" He implies the sole motivation for the founding of the church was racism. How does he know this? The conservatives of the time were clearly upset with more than just desegregation. They were concerned with the erosion of Biblical morality in a society that they perceived as abandoning God. I suspect the author has either a Catholic background or has some familiarity with Catholicism. He reveals this by having George Wallace address Rev. Falwell as "Father," which was something the anti-Catholic Protestant world abhorred. He would have more naturally addressed him as "Reverend" or "Pastor.

The dominant religion of the American South is Baptist even though so many of the attitudes and mores of many Southerners are inherited from their fighting Scots-Irish Calvinist Presbyterian ancestors. I will leave it to historians to debate the influence of New England Puritans on them. Incidentally, the author makes reference to the founding of New England calling the founders of the Plymouth Colony "Puritans." Many historians prefer the term "separatists" using the term "puritan" for the founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the Great Migration that began a decade after the founding of Plymouth in 1620. My sense is the Pilgrims were more radical than the classic Puritans and wanted to separate themselves from the Anglican Church which they considered a lost cause, whereas the Puritans only wanted to purify it and only left because of opposition to their ideas by those in power.

The Rev. Jerry Falwell and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. were both Baptists. The core doctrines of both men's faith were the same, yet Falwell is "bad" and is a "southern-fried cult leader," but Martin Luther King, Jr. is "good." As the grandfather of three African-American grandchildren (who are the smartest and best-looking children in town) I absolutely abhor Falwell's and Wallace's support for segregation. Making Jerry Falwell and George Wallace into cartoonish evil men moves the story along, but, like all of us, both men were much more complicated people living in times quite unlike our own. By the end of their lives, both men were singing a different tune regarding racism (whether sincerely or insincerely I do not know). Perhaps the author could bring them to an earlier sincere conversion to righteousness in this timeline?
I am also old enough to remember Falwell in some detail. To put him is the same post as Dr. King borders on disgraceful. Falwell was a flat out racist who did everything he could to subvert integration. His "Liberty Academy" was founded in direct response to desegregation of public schools. His efforts around the "Moral Majority" (two lies in one title) were centered on efforts against the government pulling tax exempt status from avowed racist organizations. He believed that Brown v. Board violated the Bible since it caused races to be mixed. Inshort he had decades long history as a bigot of the 1st order.

He was also a conspiracy monger, as an example he was a huge advocate of the Vince Foster foolishness.

About 9/11 he said:

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.

That quote more or less stands on its own.

He was a walking, talking meme on everything that is wrong about the mixing of religion and conservative politics in America.

Falwell was a racist PT Barnum.For his sake I sincerely hope that God is vastly more forgiving than Falwell ever was; otherwise, based on his own statements and actions, his afterlife will be... unpleasant.
 
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The Onion, I think, said it best about Falwell's 9/11 comment: Jerry Falwell: Is That Guy A Dick or What?

I agree with you @CalBear; Wallace, at least, did apologize and recant his racism from around the late 1970s and onwards...
 

CalBear

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The Onion, I think, said it best about Falwell's 9/11 comment: Jerry Falwell: Is That Guy A Dick or What?

I agree with you @CalBear; Wallace, at least, did apologize and recant his racism from around the late 1970s and onwards...
Wallace had the chance to stare death in the face and come back for a while. Gave him some perspective.
 
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