Black This Out- A Ron Paul 2012 Timeline

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I'll definitely vote for Obama without hesitation with TTL. Won't vote for Ron Paul even if you point your gun at me! However, interesting TL. So far nothing is borderline ASB in this TL. Good stuff. Will definitely continue to follow. So how would Ron Paul position on Israel, and how would he react to Chen Guangcheng (within the 2012 election season) in TTL:D?
 
Funny how he tied or even beat Obama in most polls. Paul would win the Youth vote, 90-95% of all Romney voters OTL, and the 1.5% that voted for Goode or Johnson. You also see Paul picking up steam in NH, and Colorado due to his social views. His economic views are extreme, but not as heartless seeming as Mitt Romney made his own views to be. Paul is not going to be saying "I am not concerned with the very poor" or anything of that type.
The last time Paul managed to pull off a slight lead of Obama in any poll was in September of 2011. After that, Obama outpolled him every single poll, with Mitt Romney being the only person running who managed to beat Obama in multiple polls afterward. Plus, that last poll was more than a year before the campaign began (and he had lost the majority of them before that). Once the campaign began, Obama would grind Paul into the dust. Paul wouldn't win the youth vote, any initial pro-Paul excitement would die down once his crazed views on the economy became known. I don't know how you are getting Paul picking up people with his social views, which by the way are anti-choice, pro-DOMA, pro-prayer in public schools, anti-affirmative action, anti-marriage equality, pro-sodomy laws, anti-evolution, and pro-death penalty. Once Obama's campaign plays up the horribly offensive newsletters, that's all she wrote on the subject of Paul winning any social liberal votes. Paul's plan is more heartless to the poor then Romney's, that's economic fact that Obama could use to his advantage. Ron Paul's foreign policy stances would hurt him badly amongst Republicans as well. He might be able to get 75-80% of Romney's votes.

Source on the polls:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...es_presidential_election,_2012#Two-way_race_2
 

DTanza

Banned
I have to agree. The youth vote would shift back to Obama when it becomes clear that Paul's more socially conservative than McCain or Bush were. And he'd get killed in the debates.
 
You've got Obama moving toward the left due to Paul, that's a good thing.

Will he also be encourage to promise a faster withdrawl from Iraq and Afghanistan?
 
So, here's my thoughts on how a Ron Paul victory scenario would most likely look:

-Subtract a handful of the most hardcore social conservatives from the Republican column. They were able to tolerate Romney over Obama, but Ron Paul's state's rights attitudes regarding abortion would turn some of them off. This narrowly pushes North Carolina into the Democratic camp.

-Subtract a few traditional Republican voters from the Republican column generally. Many conservatives, especially in the swing states, will feel alienated by many of Ron Paul's social, foreign policy, and even fiscal positions. Ohio and Virginia stay Democrat.

-Push some hardcore progressives, especially on social issues, from the Democrat column into the Republican camp. Yes, Obama's going to make a concerted effort to act more liberal here, but many will perceive Paul's views as more genuine. Paul does comparatively well in the Upper Midwest, New England, and Pacific Northwest, winning Iowa, Wisconsin and New Hampshire and eking out surprise wins in Oregon, Minnesota, and Maine.

-Boost turnout generally, especially from the youth and people who consider themselves fiscally conservative but socially liberal (but don't bother to vote Libertarian). Almost all of this goes to Paul. Florida is narrowly won in this manner.

-Paul sweeps the West, for obvious reasons, even winning in New Mexico with the help of Gary Johnson (who may or may not be his running mate).

This, I think, is Paul's absolute best-case scenario. Maybe not particularly likely, but certainly not ASB.

ron paul victory map.png
 
So, here's my thoughts on how a Ron Paul victory scenario would most likely look:

-Subtract a handful of the most hardcore social conservatives from the Republican column. They were able to tolerate Romney over Obama, but Ron Paul's state's rights attitudes regarding abortion would turn some of them off. This narrowly pushes North Carolina into the Democratic camp.

-Subtract a few traditional Republican voters from the Republican column generally. Many conservatives, especially in the swing states, will feel alienated by many of Ron Paul's social, foreign policy, and even fiscal positions. Ohio and Virginia stay Democrat.

-Push some hardcore progressives, especially on social issues, from the Democrat column into the Republican camp. Yes, Obama's going to make a concerted effort to act more liberal here, but many will perceive Paul's views as more genuine. Paul does comparatively well in the Upper Midwest, New England, and Pacific Northwest, winning Iowa, Wisconsin and New Hampshire and eking out surprise wins in Oregon, Minnesota, and Maine.

-Boost turnout generally, especially from the youth and people who consider themselves fiscally conservative but socially liberal (but don't bother to vote Libertarian). Almost all of this goes to Paul. Florida is narrowly won in this manner.

-Paul sweeps the West, for obvious reasons, even winning in New Mexico with the help of Gary Johnson (who may or may not be his running mate).

This, I think, is Paul's absolute best-case scenario. Maybe not particularly likely, but certainly not ASB.
Your analysis is good, but the map seems a bit off.
genusmap.php

Obama-268
Paul-250
Tossup-20
I have a hard time seeing Minnesota and WI just flipping like that, thought it is not impossible. Paul will need to win over Hispanics (should do better than Romney in that area) to win some states, like NM and NV.
 
-Push some hardcore progressives, especially on social issues, from the Democrat column into the Republican camp. Yes, Obama's going to make a concerted effort to act more liberal here, but many will perceive Paul's views as more genuine. Paul does comparatively well in the Upper Midwest, New England, and Pacific Northwest, winning Iowa, Wisconsin and New Hampshire and eking out surprise wins in Oregon, Minnesota, and Maine.

-Boost turnout generally, especially from the youth and people who consider themselves fiscally conservative but socially liberal (but don't bother to vote Libertarian). Almost all of this goes to Paul. Florida is narrowly won in this manner.

-Paul sweeps the West, for obvious reasons, even winning in New Mexico with the help of Gary Johnson (who may or may not be his running mate).
None of these three options are going to happen. Again, Paul is a social reactionary. He supports allowing states to enact sodomy laws. He is totally anti-choice. He is personally anti-same sex marriage. He is in favor of school prayer. The only issues he's more liberal on than Obama are drugs and the PATRIOT act, neither of which are going to convince voters that reactionary Paul is more "genuine" than Obama. Also, the newsletters issue is going to come up, and there are three possible reasons those newsletters exist in their current form:

1. Paul is racist, homophobic, and insane, and he believes and supports everything in those newsletters.
2. Paul is not racist no homophobic, but is an immoral bastard who was willing to ignore his values in order to make some money.
3. Paul is not competent enough to run a tiny newspaper.

Obama would have to run the worst campaign of all time to be able to lose a significant enough amount of the social liberal and youth votes to be able to cancel out the conservatives who are ditching Paul.
 
I dont think Paul would do that well with Hispanics considering he wants to end any kind of benefits or healthcare for illegal immigrants, take away automatic citizenship for children born in the country and supports things like building a fence on the border
 
I dont think Paul would do that well with Hispanics considering he wants to end any kind of benefits or healthcare for illegal immigrants, take away automatic citizenship for children born in the country and supports things like building a fence on the border
Actually Paul is agianst the fence based on this quote.
Ron Paul said:
Every time you think about this toughness on the border and ID cards and REAL IDs, think it’s a penalty against the American people too. I think this fence business is designed and may well be used against us and keep us in. In economic turmoil, the people want to leave with their capital and there’s capital controls and there’s people controls. Every time you think about the fence, think about the fences being used against us, keeping us in.
 
Eh...the Newsletters were debunked by Ben Swann so it is most likely #3. However the dems might use #3 as an argument on why he would not "well manage" the country if he can't "manage" a newsletter. Or it's very likely the Newsletters would be sidelined.

Still I can see RP getting very close, I can see Obama winning out due to domestic issues but is still quite close if you consider just who is on RP's side unless a large portion of the GOP goes Constitution and screws everything up.
 
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Eh...the Newsletters were debunked by Ben Swann so it is most likely #3. However the dems might use #3 as an argument on why he would not "well manage" the country. Or it's very likely the Newsletters would be sidelined.

Still I can see RP getting very close, I can see Obama winning out due to domestic issues but is still quite close if you consider just who is on RP's side unless a large portion of the GOP goes Constitution and screws everything up.

They weren't debunked by Ben Swann. All he said is that maybe this stuff wasn't written by Paul. And even if Paul didn't write the racist stuff, that doesn't mean he disagreed.
 
Maybe it's not quite ASB that Paul could win, but it's close. It would have to take a major scandal in the Obama administration to give him a chance and that might only slightly improve his chances.

I'd be interested in seeing how Paul would debate Obama. I've seen the videos his supporters have posted on YouTube where they claim he absolutely demolished so and so and I just can't see it. Paul, to me, is a poor debater who gets extremely antsy when answering questions and his tone often grates - to the point where he comes across as whining.

I think, in a broader general election campaign, he'd find it difficult to articulate his more extreme views. He just doesn't have 'it' and while he would certainly gain support from a small minority, to me, he'd be to Obama as McGovern was to Nixon. His campaign would be rooted in the extremes and it would be easy to push back at the idea of him being president ... especially if some influential Republicans openly criticized his campaign. While I think most would get in line, I wouldn't be surprise if a few big-named Republicans openly said they could not, and would not, support Ron Paul.

So, guys like Newt Gingrich and even Mitt Romney might not endorse Obama, or say they're voting for Obama, but they'll actively say they can't, or won't, support Ron Paul.

In the end, if Paul ran against Obama, this is how I foresee the electoral college:

genusmap.php


Obama: 56.6%, 419 electoral votes
Paul: 38.7%, 119 electoral votes
Other: 4.7%, 0 electoral votes
 
Maybe it's not quite ASB that Paul could win, but it's close. It would have to take a major scandal in the Obama administration to give him a chance and that might only slightly improve his chances.

I'd be interested in seeing how Paul would debate Obama. I've seen the videos his supporters have posted on YouTube where they claim he absolutely demolished so and so and I just can't see it. Paul, to me, is a poor debater who gets extremely antsy when answering questions and his tone often grates - to the point where he comes across as whining.

I think, in a broader general election campaign, he'd find it difficult to articulate his more extreme views. He just doesn't have 'it' and while he would certainly gain support from a small minority, to me, he'd be to Obama as McGovern was to Nixon. His campaign would be rooted in the extremes and it would be easy to push back at the idea of him being president ... especially if some influential Republicans openly criticized his campaign. While I think most would get in line, I wouldn't be surprise if a few big-named Republicans openly said they could not, and would not, support Ron Paul.

So, guys like Newt Gingrich and even Mitt Romney might not endorse Obama, or say they're voting for Obama, but they'll actively say they can't, or won't, support Ron Paul.

In the end, if Paul ran against Obama, this is how I foresee the electoral college:

genusmap.php


Obama: 56.6%, 419 electoral votes
Paul: 38.7%, 119 electoral votes
Other: 4.7%, 0 electoral votes
The GOP contested 2012 hard. The party had to win. They would not nominate a sacrificial lamb like Dole again, especially against Obama. The party would fall in line with Paul with much reservations, in the desperate hope that they can manipulate him. After all, the Democrats fell in line behind McGovern in '72, knowing what would happen. But 1972 and 2012 are not that alike; Obama was not as popular as Nixon was in 1972, and was nearly beaten by Romney in the end. That is a worst case scenario for Paul, albeit the odds are still 10-1 that he could pull off a narrow, 2000 style win.
 
The GOP contested 2012 hard. The party had to win. They would not nominate a sacrificial lamb like Dole again, especially against Obama. The party would fall in line with Paul with much reservations, in the desperate hope that they can manipulate him. After all, the Democrats fell in line behind McGovern in '72, knowing what would happen. But 1972 and 2012 are not that alike; Obama was not as popular as Nixon was in 1972, and was nearly beaten by Romney in the end. That is a worst case scenario for Paul, albeit the odds are still 10-1 that he could pull off a narrow, 2000 style win.

I bolded the most important part of your post. Even 'nearly losing' to Romney, Obama still claimed 332 electoral votes ... that against probably the best possible option of the Republicans who ran. If anything, Obama's worst case scenario against Romney happened - a sluggish economy, a poor debate performance, a divided nation ... and Romney still couldn't win, or even compete at the level Kerry did against Bush in '04.

I maintain that it would take a scandal or a total implosion of the economy for Paul to beat Obama. Neither happened in the original timeline and you'd have to set up something far earlier than August, 2011 to impact the economy in a far more negative way. But at that point, Obama might be so wounded that more potentially successful candidates decide to run instead of the depleted bench they got in this past election.
 
I keep my statement from a different thread that any 2012+ candidate, even someone like Bachmann or Warren, is going to have an difficult time falling below 45% in the popular vote due to the intense partisanship and racial divides. The simple (R) or (D) label is just too much a kiss of death in today's elections. Blacks are going to vote 85%+ Democrat no matter what, as with around 60% of WCW for the GOP.
 
I keep my statement from a different thread that any 2012+ candidate, even someone like Bachmann or Warren, is going to have an difficult time falling below 45% in the popular vote due to the intense partisanship and racial divides. The simple (R) or (D) label is just too much a kiss of death in today's elections. Blacks are going to vote 85%+ Democrat no matter what, as with around 60% of WCW for the GOP.
I concur.Filler
 
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