AMBITIONS TOO HIGH FOR A MORTAL- A Collaborative Julian TL

You might want to prove this rather than just stating it.
The main reason for the collapse of the Roman Empire is that the slave system itself exhausted itself, since for its functioning wars were needed to capture human resources. And there was nothing to seize, despite the fact that the demand for slaves was huge. When the stream of slaves dried up, then it was necessary for slave owners to get out and introduce a colonette. At the same time, one should take into account that by that time the Empire had exhausted the possibilities for expansion - it became increasingly difficult to keep the old possessions, the emergence of new ones would only be destabilizing. This as for the "salvation of Rome"

As for the Christianity and paganism of Julian's time:
First, Christianity has turned from a sect into a real political force. The populist rhetoric of the Nazarenes also played a central role, in opposition to the philosophical elitism of pagan cults. Vera Juliana is the religion of the philosophers who look after the crowd.
 
The main reason for the collapse of the Roman Empire is that the slave system itself exhausted itself, since for its functioning wars were needed to capture human resources. And there was nothing to seize, despite the fact that the demand for slaves was huge. When the stream of slaves dried up, then it was necessary for slave owners to get out and introduce a colonette. At the same time, one should take into account that by that time the Empire had exhausted the possibilities for expansion - it became increasingly difficult to keep the old possessions, the emergence of new ones would only be destabilizing. This as for the "salvation of Rome"

As for the Christianity and paganism of Julian's time:
First, Christianity has turned from a sect into a real political force. The populist rhetoric of the Nazarenes also played a central role, in opposition to the philosophical elitism of pagan cults. Vera Juliana is the religion of the philosophers who look after the crowd.

Yes... But what type of Christianity will prevail? THAT is very much an open question in this TL.
 
Yes... But what type of Christianity will prevail? THAT is very much an open question in this TL.
Fair, but I didn't count on the Gnostics - their ideas are difficult ... digested. However, the fact remains - after the death of Julian, the cult of the sun will die (maybe it will hold out until the fall of Rome - Ishida long lasted).
 
Fair, but I didn't count on the Gnostics - their ideas are difficult ... digested. However, the fact remains - after the death of Julian, the cult of the sun will die (maybe it will hold out until the fall of Rome - Ishida long lasted).

I keep seeing people claim that Gnosticism is 'hard to digest' and whatnot, but it clearly had real appeal considering how long it lasted and how many variations of Gnosticism emerged over the millennia.

After all Buddhism as a religion is meant to be practiced by monks, and yet millions of lay followers have found ways to practice this faith regardless of that fact.

And Gnosticism has Buddhist roots, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were a bunch of lay-beliefs that were followed that never got recorded.

But right now in Imperial history there is a BIG struggle between the Nicene/Trinitarian Christians and the Arian Christians, with the Gnostics as a 'third-party' contender. There's also the possibility that none of these three will ever really 'win' but wind up developing their own permanent cores and forever fight each other.
 
After all Buddhism as a religion is meant to be practiced by monks

No, it's not. It's meant to be practiced by people of all levels of society and Mahayana Buddhism, which teaches that nirvana can be achieved by anyone, is the main strand of Buddhism.
 
No, it's not. It's meant to be practiced by people of all levels of society and Mahayana Buddhism, which teaches that nirvana can be achieved by anyone, is the main strand of Buddhism.

Point taken, but my overall premise stands.

There is something about Gnosticism that has more appeal to people in the ancient world than it's given credit for. Variations of this religion persisted across the centuries. There is more too it than meets the eye.
 
The main reason for the collapse of the Roman Empire is that the slave system itself exhausted itself, since for its functioning wars were needed to capture human resources. And there was nothing to seize, despite the fact that the demand for slaves was huge. When the stream of slaves dried up, then it was necessary for slave owners to get out and introduce a colonette. At the same time, one should take into account that by that time the Empire had exhausted the possibilities for expansion - it became increasingly difficult to keep the old possessions, the emergence of new ones would only be destabilizing. This as for the "salvation of Rome"

As for the Christianity and paganism of Julian's time:
First, Christianity has turned from a sect into a real political force. The populist rhetoric of the Nazarenes also played a central role, in opposition to the philosophical elitism of pagan cults. Vera Juliana is the religion of the philosophers who look after the crowd.
I don't think slavery or the number of slaves had anything to do with it really. Otherwise the east would have fallen along with the west if that was the "main" reason. Furthermore, why were capable leaders, even as late as Majorian able to marahall considerable resources and enforce imperial authority in far flung provinces? It wasn't slavery, it was unstable/weak leadership that ultimately doomed the west. In the 5th century especially, we see capable emperors or their generals killed over and over again due primarily to political intrigue and civil war. I don't think this poison had fully set in yet as if Julian's time( as we see with the rule of valens/Valentinian and theodosius). Capable emperors could still rule effectively.

Again though, I asked for proof that Christianity was inevitably going to dominate, not what the cause of the collapse of the west was. Was it the majority religion? Which sect was dominant overall? Wasn't the "political force" that certain sects held due to imperial favor? How dominant would it be after 4 or even 5 decades of the sects squabbling in the proverbial wilderness as Julian's new faith is established with imperial favor?
 
Again though, I asked for proof that Christianity was inevitably going to dominate, not what the cause of the collapse of the west was. Was it the majority religion? Which sect was dominant overall? Wasn't the "political force" that certain sects held due to imperial favor? How dominant would it be after 4 or even 5 decades of the sects squabbling in the proverbial wilderness as Julian's new faith is established with imperial favor?
I think asking for proof that it will dominate is a tad impossible. I mean it's fully possible that Julian living means somebody else lives who could create yet another religion which would eventually dominate. Unlikely, but possible.

The issue is, we have the various strengths of Christian faith of the era vs it's pagan counterpart and can see how it managed to dominate the pagans. Even Julian at his most successful doesn't really stop the trends as much as make Christianity a bit weaker for a generation; elements like taxing Christianity aren't going to make the pagan religion survive better instead of give people reason to be pissed against a pagan elite, giving ample opportunity for the next emperor to simply reverse the tax and carry on the Christian rise to power.

In short, TLs like this should be providing evidence that there could have been such a strong effect in the life of Julian. I hope so, and would like to read that, but, as much as I would like it to be the case I am very skeptical.
 

Red Orm

Banned
I don't think slavery or the number of slaves had anything to do with it really. Otherwise the east would have fallen along with the west if that was the "main" reason. Furthermore, why were capable leaders, even as late as Majorian able to marahall considerable resources and enforce imperial authority in far flung provinces? It wasn't slavery, it was unstable/weak leadership that ultimately doomed the west. In the 5th century especially, we see capable emperors or their generals killed over and over again due primarily to political intrigue and civil war. I don't think this poison had fully set in yet as if Julian's time( as we see with the rule of valens/Valentinian and theodosius). Capable emperors could still rule effectively.

Too true, each praetorian prefecture had an army of palatini about 40,000 strong situated near its center to deal with usurpers and revolts. That's 40,000 men who aren't guarding the frontier, and 40,000 men who could be used by a disloyal, for whatever reason, magister militum of that prefecture if he is popular enough.

Fair, but I didn't count on the Gnostics - their ideas are difficult ... digested. However, the fact remains - after the death of Julian, the cult of the sun will die (maybe it will hold out until the fall of Rome - Ishida long lasted).

Difficult digested? If people can wrap their heads around Trinitarianism, I think they can wrap their heads around anything.
 
Oh my god I'm dying of excitement because I NEED to comment on this so badly. I signed up with this forum specifically because I saw this thread and I needed to reply as soon as possible.

For some time now I've been obsessing over Julian and how insanely different history would have unraveled if he had survived. I've been attempting to come up with a realistic depiction of his reign, not based on idealizing him and making him some unstoppable Mary-Sue character. I've only read your first chapter so far (because I am SO eager to post here that I can't contain myself from typing) but it seems like OP here shares my goals, which is great! Like OP, I also picked the Battle of Ctesiphon as my point of divergence.

I have SO MUCH I want to say about Julian and his hypothetical reign, so this might take several posts for me to get it all out. I've been trying to create a timeline of my own, and I hope it's not too presumptive of me to post some of the info I've been gathering here. I was just thinking that OP and others might be able to use some of this info in their story. So for starters, here's some miscellaneous topics related to Julian:

The Persian Situation
Historians have debated the motives behind Julian's Persian campaign ever since antiquity, especially since Shapur had apparently tried to end hostilities with Rome once Julian became emperor. Some people have claimed that Julian's hubris led him to believe than he was the reincarnation of Alexander, and wished to conquer the entire Persian empire. However, this is based on Christian sources that were extremely hostile to Julian, and it strongly conflicts with the facts we know about this campaign. The simple answer is probably that Julian's victories in Gaul had secured the loyalty of the western legions, and now he needed to secure the loyalty of the eastern ones with an equally impressive feat. Shapur had been waging war with Rome for almost as long as Julian had been alive, and he had inflicted some embarrassing loses on the eastern legions. By defeating Shapur, Julian would be guaranteed a fairly secure reign free of usurpers.

Julian almost certainly would not have taken over the entire Persian empire. Instead, he probably would have placed the exiled prince Hormizd on the throne (who, by law, should have been the rightful ruler). It's unclear how this would have turned out, since Hormizd was over 70 years old in 363 (by my calculations), and probably wouldn't have been well-liked by the Persians thanks to his ties with Rome. But anyways, Julian would probably also take control of a small, but prosperous and strategically vital territory in northern mesopotamia, the region known as Adiabene (or Nodardashiragan), but I personally think he would have allowed Persia to remain in control of Ctesiphon and Asoristan. Previous attempts at conquering this region had proven that Asoristan was extremely hostile to Roman rule, and very indefensible from the east. Meanwhile, Adiabene was mostly Christian, and it had been a problem area for the Sassanids for a very long time. By only taking Adiabene, Julian could make the transition easier to swallow for everyone involved. And finally, I think that as part of the peace agreement, Julian would insist that he be allowed to place his own rulers in control of the buffer states of Caucasian Albania and The Lakhmids, ensuring their loyalty to Rome This might seem like a minor point, but it would ultimately mean that went war inevitably broke out with Persia again, there would be a united front of four different nations (Rome, Armenia, the Lakhmids, and Caucasian Albania) to oppose them and greatly restrict their mobility.

Marriage
Julian seems to have been disgusted at the concept of anyone inheriting the throne simply because their father was emperor. For instance, we can look at Julian's comical essay "The Caesars" where he lists the faults of every major emperor prior to him. His hero was Marcus Aurelius, and his one massive criticism was that the innate love a father feels for his son led Marcus to name his son Commodus as his heir, which proved disastrous for the empire. Julian was also obsessed with chastity, ironically more so than even some very pious Christians of the time. It's true that he had married and impregnated Helena (who miscarried several times), but this was only on the orders of her brother, the emperor Constantius, and this happened before Julian apparently had any imperial ambitions and simply wished to do his duties as a husband. As a result, I'd postulate that Julian would take lengthy measures to ensure that he would not produce an heir.

Firstly, a solid excuse for him to remain unmarried would be if he expressed a desire to marry Constantia, the posthumous daughter of Constantius. In 363, she'd only be about two years old, which would give Julian at least another decade (and more likely a decade and a half) where he could remain unmarried without arousing suspicion (as it was typically considered bizarre for a man his age, especially an emperor, to remain unmarried). After extending this engagement for as long as possible, he could then change his mind and marry off Constantia to whomever he chose as his heir. There are a few ways he could tactfully break off the engagement, possibly by claiming that he was giving her away to someone as a reward for some major accomplishment, possibly a military victory. Or he could claim that he found another woman who he had fallen madly in love with and had chosen to marry instead. In the case of this second option, there is a very tantalizing marriage candidate for fans of alternate history: Hypatia of Alexandria.

Fans of this time period will know that Hypatia became the head of the pagan Neoplatonic Academy in Alexandria, and was renowned as the world's leading scholar on mathematics and astronomy (an exceptionally shocking reputation for a woman in this time period). She is primarily famous (in our timeline) for being flayed alive at the hands of a Christian mob, making her, in the eyes of some, the closest thing we have to a pagan martyr. Like Julian, she was also obsessive about chastity, never marrying, and once rebuking a suitor with her menstrual rags, claiming that there was nothing beautiful about sexuality. If any woman could garner the respect of Julian, and be trusted to remain totally chaste in marriage, it was Hypatia. Estimates for her year of birth vary, but most evidence points to somewhere between 350 and 355 ad. This means that after the lengthy 10 to 15 year long engagement to Constantia, Hypatia would be in her 20s to early 30s. This was still long before she'd become the head of the academy, but if Julian ever met her and stayed in contact (which I believe would happen, for reasons I'll get into later), I think there's s great chance that they would end up marrying, although unbeknownst to the public, the marriage would remain unconsummated.

Succession
The issue of succession was always the leading problem in Roman's history. I suspect that Julian would want a successor who was A.) experienced in war, B.) a zealous pagan, C.) intellectual, D.) a skilled administrator.

Julian's cousin Procopius (who would eventually become a usurper under the emperor Valens, in our own timeline) might have been being groomed to become his successor. He had both administrative and war experience, and he was ambitiously rising towards the highest offices even before Julian was named Caesar (note that Procopius was only related to Julian, not Constantius, so his rise was not the result of nepotism). Many rumors spread in the aftermath of Julian's death that he had named Procopius his successor (and it doesn't seem that these rumors were started by Procopius). However, his religion is never mentioned in any ancient sources (even the legends on the coins minted during his usurpation are ambiguous, as though he is trying to appeal to both christians and pagans). This probably makes it safe to assume that, like most people of his day, he was not very religious, and simply went along with whatever sect the current emperor favored. Would someone as obsessively devoted to the destruction of Christianity, as Julian was, actually pick someone who was so ambivalent about religion as his successor? It's hard to say.

Another possibility for Julian's chosen successor is Salustius, who was perhaps his closest confidant and friend. He was certainly a sincere pagan, a well-read intellectual, and he had extraordinary administrative abilities (in Gaul he had helped Julian streamline the beaurocracy so well that they were able to both cut taxes AND increase spending). And it's worth nothing that after Julian's death, Salustius was immediately hailed as emperor by the troops, which he turned down, supposedly citing illness and old age (although he may have also had concerns for his safety if he became emperor in such a tumultuous time). This episode might be evidence that he was widely considered to be the chosen successor to Julian. But then again, it might also show that he really was too old and feeble to be considered a viable successor, not to mention the fact that he seems to have had no military experience.

But these are just the two main candidates that he would have been considering in 363. If his reign had continued, then new candidates would certainly have shown up to replace these two, especially since both of them were certainly older than Julian.
 

Red Orm

Banned
Huh, this Procopius is the same who has met up with Arsaces II and is marching down the Tigris. I didn't know he was Julian's cousin, that's good to know.
 
Welcome AttalusPius!
Now, my year on the forums has dictated me to the four main groups.
The Polibrits are over there, led by Meadow and Roem I do believe.
Here we have the Romanophiles and Byzantophiles, Byzantophiles appear to have Basileus444 as their leader. Not sure who Romanophiles have though.
The Future Histroy forum is filled with depressing, destructive TL's about the world ending and WWIII. Fun.
Finally, we have the Soviet Quartermasters, led by no one because they're soviets, the workers ARE the leaders!
Oh btw the Fandom forum is filled with a shit ton of ASOIAF Timelines, don't know WHY per say, Game of Thrones hasn't really been my thing, but whatever rocks their boat I guess.
(That whole thing was just satire in case your wondering)
 
Welcome AttalusPius!

Thanks! I'm very excited to find this place. Can't wait to check it out further.

Also here are some more VERY fascinating facts I've learned:


The Twin Prophecies

Julian famously attempted to rebuild the high temple in Jerusalem during his reign. Julian did seem to respect the Jews, as he did with all very ancient and established religious traditions, but the true reasons behind this project were far more complicated. Julian was obsessed with omens and prophecies, and in this case there are two different prophecies that Julian was attempting to address by rebuilding the Jewish Temple: one pagan, and one christian. And if Julian had succeeded in his plan, it very well may have shattered the Christian church beyond the point of repair.

Firstly, to set the stage: the temple being rebuilt was big news. And a string of very ominous and bizarre occurrences seemed to prove to the populace that god (or the gods) were involved. Firstly, there was a string of catastrophic earthquakes - it's hard to know how many exactly, and when they hit, as historians are still trying to unravel the sources. But we know that one earthquake directly hit Syria (possibly on May 18, 363), completely undoing the progress that had been made on the temple. Another earthquake in Crete was so massive that it uplifted the entire island by over 30 feet, destroying all settlements there. This quake also caused a tsunami of unprecedented proportions that destroyed the city of Alexandria, supposedly flinging fishing vessels over two miles inland. Then, there were events that really can only be described as supernatural. Ancient sources almost universally agree that fireballs erupted from the temple at one point, and at another point the workers awoke one day to see the sign of the cross emblazoned on their tunics. Normally I would disregard fantastical tales like this, if not for the fact that it's mentioned by several pagan sources, even ones that are typically very reliable and/or hostile to Christianity (such as Ammian and Zosimus).

Now, in the midst of all this chaos, we have the two prophecies in question - prophecies that anyone with basic education would know about. The first one was a prophecy directly uttered by Jesus, and it has always been a cornerstone of the church. Specifically, in Mark 13, Jesus appears to accurately predict that within one generation there would be a terrible war that would include the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. He then describes, in vivid detail, the terrible apocalypse that would follow, saying that the end times will begin immediately after they witness "the abomination of desolation standing where it does not belong". Explaining this term can get kind of complicated, and I don't want to spend a lot of time unraveling what it meant in the original Greek and Hebrew words, and how it references another prophecy in the book of Daniel, etc etc. What's important to know is that Christians of this time period universally understood that this "abomination of desolation standing where it does not belong" as referring to a sacrilegious temple being built on the site of the original Jewish Temple - it was firmly believed that the Jewish temple would never be rebuilt on the temple mount, and if any unholy temple was built on the site it was the work of The Beast, and would be the first warning sign that the apocalypse had begun. So, if Julian he succeeded in building the temple and the world did not end... well, that would undermine a core tenet of the church at that time. Yes, there would still be Christians, but they would likely all have different possible explanations, and would rapidly begin to splinter into many heretical groups with no real cohesion.

The second prophecy has been almost entirely forgotten nowadays, and the exact text is now lost to history. But luckily it was referenced by many famous Christian writers (such as Augustine) who argued against the prophecy's validity. The prophecy was made by the hugely influential philosopher Porphyry, who has believed to be divinely inspired in his writings. Porphyry had a lengthy vision (the details of which are lost to us now), revealing to him the fact that the Christian church would be destroyed exactly 365 years after Christ began to be worshiped. Now, proper dating is important here, and this could potentially suggest a lot of different dates, depending on when "Christ began to be worshiped". For a variety of boring and complicated reasons, several possibilities for when Christ was first worshiped are: The Annunciation, The Nativity, The Adoration of the Magi, The Baptism, The Last Supper, The Crucifixion, and The Pentecost. Although the dates for none of these events are certain, we can whittle the possible years down to somewhere between either 358-366 AD or 391-399 AD. Once you learn about this prophecy, it's easy to understand Julian's immediate and enthusiastic support for rebuilding the temple. In one fell swoop he could disprove a hugely important Christian prophecy and seemingly prove the validity of another well-known pagan prophecy.
 
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