Alternate Ideologies

[RiverDelta]

A few more short concepts:

• A fringe socialist movement for the 21st century that declares that going from capitalism to socialism is too hard, and so an intermediate step is needed: quasi-medieval theocracy! They reassure everyone that the theocracy won't be oppressive at all, it will be totally chill, and will teach everyone how to love each other, and stuff.

This just seems like one of those "Whoa, what if we didn't do cringe and uncool Marxism/Anarchism and did my totally cool ideology called Christian Socialism?! Isn't that wacky, combining JESUS and SOCIALISM? This'll totally blow your mind!" takes.

Nobody actually seems to think through what Christian Socialism actually means, and when they do it's basically just some other kind of socialism (or probably social democracy) but with an implied theocracy that's somehow fine and democratic.

There's this TL I enjoy in SV with a ton of religious socialist American revolutionary factions, and I don't really know how they got there when it's a Second American Civil War story in the 2020s with a POD in like 2018.

 

[Miranda Brawner]

This just seems like one of those "Whoa, what if we didn't do cringe and uncool Marxism/Anarchism and did my totally cool ideology called Christian Socialism?! Isn't that wacky, combining JESUS and SOCIALISM? This'll totally blow your mind!" takes.

Nobody actually seems to think through what Christian Socialism actually means, and when they do it's basically just some other kind of socialism (or probably social democracy) but with an implied theocracy that's somehow fine and democratic.

Spot on. That's the vibe I was going for.

 

[Aluma]

social democracy) but with an implied theocracy

Nice
*Puts on a Pope hat and gets free healthcare*

 

[Miranda Brawner]

While I was at work, I was daydreaming about a hypothetical society run by truck drivers and taxi drivers. (I'm not a professional driver, I work in a restaurant.)

More seriously though, if politicians, business owners, and the criminal justice system didn't exist, then which of the remaining professions do you think would have the most power? Truck drivers? Farmers? Journalists? Movie stars? Doctors?

 

[Born in the USSA]

While I was at work, I was daydreaming about a hypothetical society run by truck drivers and taxi drivers. (I'm not a professional driver, I work in a restaurant.)

More seriously though, if politicians, business owners, and the criminal justice system didn't exist, then which of the remaining professions do you think would have the most power? Truck drivers? Farmers? Journalists? Movie stars? Doctors?

Ironically there's already a fictional ideology where the equivalent of truck drivers try to run society, Functionalism from Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll.

 

[Aluma]

More seriously though, if politicians, business owners, and the criminal justice system didn't exist, then which of the remaining professions do you think would have the most power? Truck drivers? Farmers? Journalists? Movie stars? Doctors?

I've toyed with retail workers before
Like a russian style revolution done by modern labour unions mainly led by them, with the state replaced by employee soviets

 

[Crazy Boris]

More seriously though, if politicians, business owners, and the criminal justice system didn't exist, then which of the remaining professions do you think would have the most power? Truck drivers? Farmers? Journalists? Movie stars? Doctors?

Maybe teachers? People might look to them for leadership as being among the best-educated people not just in terms of general knowledge but in terms of supervising and working with large groups as well

 

[Aluma]

Maybe teachers? People might look to them for leadership as being among the best-educated people not just in terms of general knowledge but in terms of supervising and working with large groups as well

Imagine the division of powers but its just the educational system, now that would be something

 

[da Racontor]

While I was at work, I was daydreaming about a hypothetical society run by truck drivers and taxi drivers. (I'm not a professional driver, I work in a restaurant.)

More seriously though, if politicians, business owners, and the criminal justice system didn't exist, then which of the remaining professions do you think would have the most power? Truck drivers? Farmers? Journalists? Movie stars? Doctors?

I'm always skeptical of ideologies that say they will put blue collar workers etc. in charge for an often overlook reason.
They have a full-time blue collar job to do.
When I worked in a kitchen (not quite the same I know but bear with me) the last thing I wanted to do when I got out was go argue with a bunch of people over some tax policies or whatnot, I wanted to go to bed.
Now if the ideology is also the exact opposite of globalism, where everyone only cares about local matters, that might be a bit different. (Eventually, I will develop distributism but political for one of these 🙂)

What might work is that retired truckers or etc. To the politicking while the others do the job. This would probably end up looking like rule by guild or something though.

There was a book somewhere, I don't remember the title or author, that said Boy Scout masters and teachers would takeover in lieu of politicians.

Personally I think anyone would only be temporary though. Eventually, society will recreate the politician. If not only so the rest of us can get back to doing our jobs.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Here's some more development* for Cosmicism! This concerns a development I'm calling "deformed states and the degenerated state", and while the terms themselves are lifted from (and loosely inspired by) Trotsky their scope is considerably broader.

1. Since the defining feature of the Nihilist stage of the Leviathan is that it's the accumulated shambles of all the previous stages, having putrefied so thoroughly that it strangles the natural maturation of the next stage, in my conception the entire stage would be described as a single degenerated state referring to a disjointed world order under the sway of a global kyriarchy rather than Trotsky's focus on individual worker's states under the control of a party elite.
2. Deformed states, meanwhile, would refer to the point after material or cultural pressures fundamentally alter the course of the prior stages, forcing them down a path where their own contradictions and compromises ensure their inevitable demise and lead to the creation of the following stage. This plays into Trotsky's distinction between the two, where deformed worker's states never reach their ideal form because of internal and external forces. The ideal possible course history avoided would be a hauntology.

In the revised form, the process would flow from the inciting acceleration to the inevitable historical point that mutilates it into a deformed state to the necropolitics left after the inevitable rise and maturation of a new acceleration. As an attempt to hotwire and bootstrap our modern accelerations/hauntologies to escape the Nihilist global death drive the theorists of the Cosmintern believe they've escaped the trap of the deformed state, especially because nothing in their history or strategy is outside the bounds of the founding conditions Sutter expected, though perhaps the rise of the Maximalists itching for total war and Final Victory mean they've finally reached that point. I haven't decided yet, though it would definitely give the period the novel is set in a different tone if they were at the start of an inevitable decline 🤔

Anyway, here are my initial thoughts about the deformed state for each stage of my historical process. Yes, I know they couldn't have helped but become deformed given historical conditions, but that's half the point. Most of these "ideal" hauntologies would have their own baked in flaws, but they could've endured longer and in a nobler and more empowering way such that the actual course of history is a succession of dystopias by comparison.

• Imperium actually produced two failed states, the European model (where the bourgeoisie ran rampant) and the Chinese one (where the bourgeoisie was overly suppressed but effectively controlled). The former led to the development of the Liberal stage and the latter stifled innovation, left the system vulnerable to outside pressure and was eventually snuffed out. The middle road would've been some form of developed cameralism where an ecosystem of private interests could support the state effectively and raise living standards without supplanting traditional systems of control.
• Liberalism is relatively simpler, with the conservative reaction to the rise of mass democracy and the failures and blindspots of the progressive movements leaving the achievements of both seen as a historical half measure that couldn't effectively check corporate exploitation or class/race antagonism. The ideal would've been a genuinely mass democracy (without racial or class barriers) that employed Georgist methods to yoke the exploiting class to the popular welfare.
• Socialism entered its deformed state with the October revolution, locking the process on a path that ignored Marx's original conditions and attempted to jump from feudal agrarianism to socialism without the necessary intervening steps.
• Fascism's deformed state was caused by fighting and losing World War II. I know it was what the ideology demanded but it was still a historical mistake in this framework. The ideal would've been a mature form of Futurism before all the reaction crept in.

*The things I do for ancillary worldbuilding 😅

 

[Simeon]

Fascism's deformed state was caused by fighting and losing World War II. I know it was what the ideology demanded but it was still a historical mistake in this framework. The ideal would've been a mature form of Futurism before all the reaction crept in.

Shouldn't this be put when Benito Mussolini became openly anti-Communist though?

 

[Born in the USSA]

Shouldn't this be put when Benito Mussolini became openly anti-Communist though?

Well no, the Fascist stage rose as a reaction against the deformed state of Socialism embodied by the Russian revolution in this framework, anticommunism was always a defining feature, not a bug and was present in the Futurist prior state before it was deformed.

 

[Miranda Brawner]

@Born in the USSA Fascinating stuff as always. And the word "hauntologies" is perfect for Halloween season!

 

[Born in the USSA]

@Born in the USSA Fascinating stuff as always. And the word "hauntologies" is perfect for Halloween season!

Isn't it just? A specter is haunting the world, the specter that things really suck in a slowburn apocalyptic way and we missed the chance at a better world. Talk about terrifying.

 

[Born in the USSA]

Based on a reader question in my main thread I ended up sketching out the "ideal" course of events where none of the stages became deformed!

Sorry, thought that was implied. "Ideal" Socialism would've manifested in an industrialized country either before or immediately after the October Revolution in line with Marx's theories. Basically the turning point where deformation became inevitable was the failure of the post-October revolutionary wave to manifest.

Since they all have flaws that's certainly possible and since true utopia is a sucker's bet that world would have its fair share of strife and bloodshed but it would still be a pinnacle of sanity compared to all the crap we went through. Off the top of my head:

1. Cameralism develops further in northern Europe and a series of lucky breaks coupled with better efficiency at scale allows an alliance of Prussia and Sweden to outcompete their neighbors, expand and get in on the ground floor of the imperial game. Bonus points if it gets imported into China and Russia and causes them to modernise ahead of schedule. Expect an earlier Sweden-Norway and united Germany.
2. There's still an Enlightenment-inspired rebellion in North America (since the frontier has a consistent effect of eroding centralized command and control historically), this time between a New Prussia somewhere in the South and a wildy successful New Sweden that survived somehow. We'll give Chaos TL a nod and call it something like the Federal Union of Atlantis or whatever. Bonus points if it starts as a peaceful process of administrative devolution and they just end up making a clean break. Race blindness and socially beneficial landholding wouldn't likely be an initial feature but it would have to get there relatively quickly to meet the mark, so that's what happens. For the sake of wacky political labels we'll call this stage "Freiheit" or something 🤔
3. Since there's still class stratification and worker exploitation in the wake of the inevitable industrial revolution "scientific" socialism still arises in the middle 19th century, though likely from a Brit or a Dutchman in this scenario. Say hello to the Union of Britain(-Denmark?), just not in the KR Syndicalist sense. France would likely be Cameralist (since aspects OTL caught on in France) so they're out, but maybe an industrialized Japan/some portion of India that wasn't railroaded by colonialism would be likely candidates too. Say hello to yet another allohistorical Societism!
4. Since there'd inevitably be an industrialized world war an analogue to Futurism is likely, but I'm not sure where it would crop up. It would have to be somewhere the threat of communism is real or perceived, there's a lot of emphasis on history and tradition to be discarded, and they'd have to feel they lost the war in some profound if not strictly literal sense. Maybe the Chinese reforms didn't go far enough? With socialism/Societism growing on either side and the feeling they got the short end of the stick in a war against Kalmar/German Indochina or whatever they'd be ripe for it. Given the weight of history it's also likely to catch on in South Atlantis. Futurism is a cool name so I'm keeping it.
5. Since all of these "ideal" forms would still have their own flaws and contradictions there'd still be a watered down Nihilist stage of some kind, but given better founding conditions the Cosmicism analogue would arise sooner and maybe just butterfly that entirely? It would fit the ideological model by forming in the the ideal organic Volksgeist process of the gestation of new Leviathan stages after all, rather than having to claw its way out of an ideological corpse world. Maybe Russia ends up reforming after each new model in turn*, some altered form of Cosmism takes root and then the UN analogue after *World War II allows it to spread organically? A history of more effective and centralized states would likely create a scenario where the *UN was more powerful to begin with.

In fact, you know what, I'm canonizing this since I'm suddenly so taken with it. Say hello to Leviathan Renewed, another of the Cosmintern shared world media properties 😂


*In order: Catherine the Great begins importing cameralist systems, followed by a successful Freiheit-inspired Decembrist analogue velvet revolution and proper industrialization that sets the precedent for regular velvet cultural revolutions that install Societism, Futurism and eventually Cosmism in turn?

 

[PecuTheGreat]

Folksy-ism or Anti-Engineering: The belief that we should abolish big institutions, in favor of an informal, folksy way of life. They oppose engineering, standardization, vast bureaucracies, and anything that feels to "professional". They like fluidity, spontaneity, spirituality, and art.

Aside from the names, I don't think it'll be too opposite with

Engineerism, also STEMism by some annoying academics

As they aren't trying to hard social engineer society but aside from that, I guess yeah, they kind of tick the other enemy boxes for Folksyism. (Tho, only very partially for Standardisation).

 

[da Racontor]

My first try at one of these! Going a little "wacky" for it.

---

Cellular Kritocracy​

Cellular kritocracy is theoretical type of government intended to appear to be a bottom-up government that is resistant to anarchy &/or "mob rule".
Characteristics inherent to cellular kritocracy are strong divisions of power & localism. The divisions of power flows, technically, all the way down to the lowest level.

The legislative division functions very similarly to cellular democracy. Each division forms a council & each council selects representatives to represent their division in the council for the higher division. And that process repeats until the national division is reached. The job of the legislative councils is to write & propose laws & actions, they do not pass them. These laws only apply within the context of that specific division. Since there's more to cellular kritocracy, the division need not be similar in population & can have differing traditions. For example:

1. Four types of 1st level divisions:
   • Hamlet. The council consists of everyone present at the meeting, there is no chairman.
   • Village. The council consists of everyone present at the meeting, there is a chairman.
   • Town. The council consists of elected representatives, anyone present at the meeting can join the discussion but not vote.
   • City. The council consists of elected representatives, they're the only ones at the meeting & can vote.
2. County. Operates like a city.
3. Province. Operates like a city.
4. Nation. Operates like a city.

The other primary branch is the judiciary branch. Judicial court are made of judges, judges are held to a certain level of understanding of the laws. And each judicial court is connected to a specific regional divisions. It's the judges' job to pass the laws & actions proposed by their legislative council. Anytime there is a conflict between a two laws the highest relevant court adjudicates. If a regional division doesn't have enough population to have its own dedicated court (i.e. hamlets & villages) then a they would "borrow" a judge from a town or city it is connected to. (Judges from hamlets/villages would also serve in the connected city/town courts.)

While the legislature can't pass a law or action no matter how bad they want to, there is no limit to the number of times the same law or action can be proposed. So they can effectively filibuster a court.

The military is an independent branch & is lead by the highest ranking military officer, who serves as an adviser to both the supreme legislative council and he supreme court. During peacetime, the military can not act on it's own accord outside of small scale emergency situations. During wartime the military has full independence to act as it needs, so long as it doesn't infringe on the laws (generally national laws, however if a garrison is stationed domestically the laws of those regional divisions count). A state of war can only be entered and existed by the supreme legislature proposing it and the supreme court approving it.

Individualist "good guys"
The supreme justice in each region acts as a paternal leader, nurturing & protecting their region.
Collectivist "good guys"
The populace takes the largest active role the system allowing the legislative councils responding to everyone's wants & needs.
Individualist "bad guys"
The supreme justices wield their authority like a dictator & won't allow any law or action to pass that doesn't directly benefit him or herself. Probably using favors or threats to control the other justices.
Collectivist "bad guys"
The populace wield the legislative councils positions like a club, calling them to filibustering everything to the point where the government is forced into shutting down if they don't get what they want.

Due to the localistic nature, it would be possible to see all four of these in the same country at once.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

This just seems like one of those "Whoa, what if we didn't do cringe and uncool Marxism/Anarchism and did my totally cool ideology called Christian Socialism?! Isn't that wacky, combining JESUS and SOCIALISM? This'll totally blow your mind!" takes.

Nobody actually seems to think through what Christian Socialism actually means, and when they do it's basically just some other kind of socialism (or probably social democracy) but with an implied theocracy that's somehow fine and democratic.

There's this TL I enjoy in SV with a ton of religious socialist American revolutionary factions, and I don't really know how they got there when it's a Second American Civil War story in the 2020s with a POD in like 2018.

My Brazilian socialist regime timeline involves Christian socialism, which is viewed as more appropriate to Brazil's culture and conditions than Marxism.

 

[Beatriz]

Tritheism:
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three completely separate gods. "The Holy Spirit" and "Mary, Mother of Jesus" have been merged into single person ever since the immaculate conception. Priesthood should be hereditary - Female Priests and Male Priests should be the parents of the next generation of priests. There should also be a world government ruled by a Holy Emperor and a Holy Empress, both equally regnant. Death to unbelievers and monotheist heretics 😇

Socialism with Atlantic Characteristics:
Long live the New Atlantis! Long live Chairman Zuckerberg thought!

Rapunzelism-Gothelism:
Matriarchy with a hair-themed national identity?

For the second, you mean neoreactionary socialism? And for the third, you mean a distinct hairstyle like the Manchu queue?

 

[Aluma]

My first try at one of these! Going a little "wacky" for it.

---

Cellular Kritocracy​

Cellular kritocracy is theoretical type of government intended to appear to be a bottom-up government that is resistant to anarchy &/or "mob rule".
Characteristics inherent to cellular kritocracy are strong divisions of power & localism. The divisions of power flows, technically, all the way down to the lowest level.

The legislative division functions very similarly to cellular democracy. Each division forms a council & each council selects representatives to represent their division in the council for the higher division. And that process repeats until the national division is reached. The job of the legislative councils is to write & propose laws & actions, they do not pass them. These laws only apply within the context of that specific division. Since there's more to cellular kritocracy, the division need not be similar in population & can have differing traditions. For example:

1. Four types of 1st level divisions:
   • Hamlet. The council consists of everyone present at the meeting, there is no chairman.
   • Village. The council consists of everyone present at the meeting, there is a chairman.
   • Town. The council consists of elected representatives, anyone present at the meeting can join the discussion but not vote.
   • City. The council consists of elected representatives, they're the only ones at the meeting & can vote.
2. County. Operates like a city.
3. Province. Operates like a city.
4. Nation. Operates like a city.

The other primary branch is the judiciary branch. Judicial court are made of judges, judges are held to a certain level of understanding of the laws. And each judicial court is connected to a specific regional divisions. It's the judges' job to pass the laws & actions proposed by their legislative council. Anytime there is a conflict between a two laws the highest relevant court adjudicates. If a regional division doesn't have enough population to have its own dedicated court (i.e. hamlets & villages) then a they would "borrow" a judge from a town or city it is connected to. (Judges from hamlets/villages would also serve in the connected city/town courts.)

While the legislature can't pass a law or action no matter how bad they want to, there is no limit to the number of times the same law or action can be proposed. So they can effectively filibuster a court.

The military is an independent branch & is lead by the highest ranking military officer, who serves as an adviser to both the supreme legislative council and he supreme court. During peacetime, the military can not act on it's own accord outside of small scale emergency situations. During wartime the military has full independence to act as it needs, so long as it doesn't infringe on the laws (generally national laws, however if a garrison is stationed domestically the laws of those regional divisions count). A state of war can only be entered and existed by the supreme legislature proposing it and the supreme court approving it.

Individualist "good guys"
The supreme justice in each region acts as a paternal leader, nurturing & protecting their region.
Collectivist "good guys"
The populace takes the largest active role the system allowing the legislative councils responding to everyone's wants & needs.
Individualist "bad guys"
The supreme justices wield their authority like a dictator & won't allow any law or action to pass that doesn't directly benefit him or herself. Probably using favors or threats to control the other justices.
Collectivist "bad guys"
The populace wield the legislative councils positions like a club, calling them to filibustering everything to the point where the government is forced into shutting down if they don't get what they want.

Due to the localistic nature, it would be possible to see all four of these in the same country at once.

Sounds like Ancient Israel, its really cool