A surviving Yorkist Europe

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Brita

Brita

Kellan Sullivan said:
Louise of Savoy, might be a good candidate. A Sforza girl (one of il Moro's nieces), and Charlotte of Naples, Comtesse de Laval is IN France from the 1480s/early 1490s when Anne of Beaujeu considered her (briefly) as an alternative to Margarethe of Austria. Another Italian match might be Lucrezia Borgia (if Alexander VI still winds up as pope and pro-French) or one of Ercole I d'Este's daughters.

Germaine de Foix or Anne de Foix might wind up as queen of Hungary or Poland in an extreme circumstance where somehow Maximilian's daughters are unacceptable.
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isabella said:
I was wondering if Louise herself would not be a good match for Orleans... He would be free to remarry in 1499 as the dealing of the ATL regency for Louis XII will free him from his wedding to Jeanne and at the same time the Bourbon’s inheritance would be secured to Suzanne. Louise would still be in early 20s and mother of his heir presumptiv, sister of the Duke of Savoy and a woman smart and fertile
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Yes Louise would be a good candidate.
 

isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
Louise of Savoy, might be a good candidate. A Sforza girl (one of il Moro's nieces), and Charlotte of Naples, Comtesse de Laval is IN France from the 1480s/early 1490s when Anne of Beaujeu considered her (briefly) as an alternative to Margarethe of Austria. Another Italian match might be Lucrezia Borgia (if Alexander VI still winds up as pope and pro-French) or one of Ercole I d'Este's daughters.

Germaine de Foix or Anne de Foix might wind up as queen of Hungary or Poland in an extreme circumstance where somehow Maximilian's daughters are unacceptable.
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Anne de Foix has no sponsor so she will end as Duchess of Longueville... Germaine as niece of Louis XIII has him as sponsor but Hungary and a Poland are for Maximilian and Elizabeth’s daughters.
The nieces of Ludovico are already both married (to the heir of Ferrara and to Maximilian)... Charlotte of Naples is a ward and close relative of Anne of Beaujeu (and also closely related to the Duchess of Savoy) so is the best alternative to Louise. Ercole’s daughters are already married (and Beatrice is dead in childbirth at this point)
 
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isabella

For Spain I have three options:
  • Spain will be inherited by children of Juan and Catherine of York
  • Catalina is born as boy (Fernando) who will marry Madeleine d’Albret (with Henry II dying like his brothers)
  • Juana married Manuel of Portugal and they will inherit Spain
With the second option I think possible who Isabella of Aragon’s husband Alfonso will live and their children will rule Portugal...
In all this scenarios I can see two alternatives for Naples: either annexed by Aragon as OTL or given back to Ferdinand, duke of Calabria (King Frederick’s son) as dowry for his wedding to one of the daughters of Ferdinand and Isabella

As second wife for the Duke of Orléans (future ATL Louis XIII of France): Louise of Savoy, Dowager Duchess of Angoulême or Charlotte of Naples? Both of them are domestic matches with ties to Savoy
 
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isabella

John Fredrick Parker said:
I really like this option, mainly because having Spain and Portugal under a dual monarchy at the start of the Age of Exploration is a fascinating idea to me.
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Spain and Portugal union in a couple of generations is almost guaranteed under any scenario... Still Juana and Manuel‘s son (if was their first kid) would be less than five years younger than Madeleine of Navarre so he can very well marrying her and bring the whole Navarre in the union....
I will go for that option and maybe Ferdinand, Duke of Calabria will receiving back Naples as dowry for Catalina, while Maria will need to made a lesser match (but to who?)

For French matches I have two options (Marguerite will be married to Narbonne and Anne de Foix to Longueville in both scenarios)
  • Suzanne marry her OTL husband, Germaine for Alençon
  • Suzanne to Alençon, Germaine to François of Angoulêmé (she is six years older than him, but if Louis XIII married Charlotte and had heirs by her is not a bad match)
 

isabella

John Fredrick Parker said:
Is Francois of Angoulêmé still inheriting the French throne TTL?
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That will depend from who will be the second Duchess of Orleans... If Louis marry Louise I think will give them only a couple of surviving daughters so François will be King and will make a foreign match...
If Louis married Charlotte I think he will have at least a surviving son and so a double match between the Angoulême kids and the children of the King’s sister would make sense

Spain, Portugal, Naples and Navarre are settled (Juan III of Spain, eldest son of Juana and Manuel, will marry Queen Madeleine of Navarre and Ferdinand III of Naples will recover his kingdom and marry Catalina of Aragon)..
only France (and maybe Rome, Florence and Ferrara) is still in doubt...
 
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John Fredrick Parker

Donor
isabella said:
That will depend from who will be the second Duchess of Orleans... If Louis marry Louise I think will give them only a couple of surviving daughters so François will be King and will make a foreign match...
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Well that would preclude him marrying Germaine de Foix, so it sounds like in that scenario you'd be having her marry René of Alençon, meaning Suzanne, Duchess of Bourbon, marries her OTL husband. Do I have that right?
 

isabella

John Fredrick Parker said:
Well that would preclude him marrying Germaine de Foix, so it sounds like in that scenario you'd be having her marry René of Alençon, meaning Suzanne, Duchess of Bourbon, marries her OTL husband. Do I have that right?
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Yes, with Germaine available (as she will not have any foreign match available as York and Habsburg girls had taken everyone) Charles d’Alençon (René was his father) will marry her if he can not get Suzanne’s inheritance (Suzanne’s wedding is easily resolved with delaying or not her father’s death)
 
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Old1812

Old1812

It's a small thing, but I don't mind the idea of Catherine of York marrying Edward of Clarence.

Will Matthias Corvinus be able to get John approved as his successor? A strong Hungary is quite the butterfly for the Ottomans.
 

isabella

Old1812 said:
It's a small thing, but I don't mind the idea of Catherine of York marrying Edward of Clarence.

Will Matthias Corvinus be able to get John approved as his successor? A strong Hungary is quite the butterfly for the Ottomans.
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Edward of Clarence will die young, Catherine will be the childless widow of Juan Trastamara
Hungary will go like OTL only Vladislaus will remarry to one of Maximilian‘s daughters (as here he will marry thrice with a surviving son from each wife and a lot of daughters: one by Mary, two by Elizabeth and three by Bianca Maria).
 

isabella

@John Fredrick Parker: I think I have decided for France: the Duke d’Orleans will remarry to Charlotte of Naples, they will have a surviving son and daughter, she will die in 1506 (like OTL) in childbirth and Louis XIII will remarry again in 1507 to Maria of Aragon (Catalina had married Ferdinand III of Naples in 1505).
Germaine as Duchess of Angoulême and Suzanne as Duchess of Bourbon and Alençon
 

John Fredrick Parker

Donor
@isabella Sorry, I forgot you mentioned it - you said (the surviving son of) Richard of Glouchester, in the event that Elizabeth and Anne of York were accounted for, would marry “Anna Isabella”, correct? Who is that again?
 

isabella

John Fredrick Parker said:
@isabella Sorry, I forgot you mentioned it - you said (the surviving son of) Richard of Glouchester, in the event that Elizabeth and Anne of York were accounted for, would marry “Anna Isabella”, correct? Who is that again?
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I said who Anna Isabelle of England (who if you look the tree is the eldest surviving daughter of Edward V and Anne of Brittany) is a possible wife for Richard of Gloucester (who is the son and only surviving child of Edward of Middleham and Margaret of Clarence). If she has a better match available (possible as she is sister of two future rulers and has only one younger sister) then the next Duchess of Gloucester will be one of her cousins Anne and Elizabeth of York (with the other destined to be Countess of Richmond as daughter-in-law of Henry Tudor)...
Edward of Warwick was mostly a victim of the circumstances (aka I needed Richard of Gloucester feeling safer and giving him the whole Warwick inheritance was the best way to get it so I killed off Edward of Warwick and married
Margaret to her double first cousin)
 

isabella

Updating the trees (still work-in-progress and still with France missing)
(mostly around 1510)

Edward IV, King of England (1442–1486) married Elizabeth Woodville (1440-1492) in 1464
  1. Elizabeth of York (b.1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1483
    1. See under Maximilian for issue
  2. Mary of York (1467-1482)
  3. Cecily of York (b.1469) married James IV, King of Scotland (b.1473) in 1484
    1. Margaret of Scotland (b.1485)
    2. James, Duke of Rothesay (1487-1488)
    3. Elizabeth (b.1489)
    4. James V, King of Scotland (b.1492)
    5. Alexander (b. 1494)
  4. Edward V of England (b.1470) married Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b.1477) in 1490
    1. Edward, Prince of Wales (1492-1497)
    2. Richard III, King of England (b.1494)
    3. Elizabeth (1497-1500)
    4. Anne Isabelle (1500)
    5. Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b.1502)
    6. Katherine (b. 1505)
  5. Margaret of York (1472-1472)
  6. Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1473) married a) Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (1472-1493) in 1478
    1. Edward, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1488)
    2. Elizabeth of York (b.1490)
    3. Anne of York (b.1493)
  7. Anne of York (b.1475) married Philip, Duke of Burgundy (b.1478) in 1493
    1. See under Philip for issue
  8. George, Duke of Bedford (1477-1479)
  9. Catherine of York (b.1479) married Juan, Prince of Asturias (1478-1497) in 1494
  10. Bridget of York (b.1480) nun

Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) married a) Mary, Duchess of Burgundy (1457-1482) in 1477 b) Elizabeth of York (b.1466-1492) in 1482 c) Bianca Maria Sforza (b.1472) in 1494

1a) Philip of Burgundy (1478-1500), Duke of Burgundy married Anne of York (b. 1475) in 1493​
1) Mary II, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1495) married Antoine, Duke of Lorraine and Burgundy (b. 1489) in 1507*​
2) miscarriage (1498)​
3) Charles (1499-1500)​
2a) Margaret of Burgundy (1480-1510), Queen of France married Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1498) in 1492​
1) Anne Marie of France (1495-1506)​
2) Louis XII, King of France (1497-1507)​
3a) Francis (1481)​
4b) stillborn son (1485)​
5b) Eleanor (b.1487), Queen of Hungary and Bohemia married Vladislaus II Jagiellon, King of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1456) in 1502​
5b) Ernest II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1490)​
6b) Elizabeth (b.1492), Queen of Poland married Sigismund I the Old, King of Poland (b.1467) in 1510​
8c) Bianca (b.1495) married James V of Scotland ?​
9c) Beatrice (b. 1497) married Richard III of England ?​
10c) Isabella (b.1498) married Christian II of Denmark ?​
11c) Frederick (1502-1508)​
12c) miscarriage (1504)​
13c) Maximilian II, Duke of Milan (b.1507) married Isabella Beatrice Sforza, Duchess of Milan and Bari (b.1515)** ​


Ferdinand II, King of Aragon (1452-1518) married Isabella I, Queen of Castile (1451-1506) in 1469
  1. Isabella (1470-1505), Princess of Portugal married Alfonso, Prince of Portugal (1475-1491) in 1490
  2. miscarried son (1475)
  3. Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona (1478-1497) married Catherine of York (b. 1479) in 1494
    1. Isabella (1496-1497)
    2. Juana (1497)
  4. Juana I, Queen of Castile and Aragon (b.1479) married Manuel I, King of Portugal (b.1469) in 1496
    1. Juan III, King of Spain (b.1497) married Madeleine, Queen of Navarre (b.1494) in 1511
    2. Isabella (b. 1498) married Richard III, King of England ?
    3. stillborn daughter
    4. Ferdinand, Duke of Beja (b.1502) married Guiomar Coutinho, Duchess of Guarda (b. 1510)
    5. Alfonso (b.1505)
    6. Luis (1506-1507)
    7. Beatrice (b.1508)
    8. Maria (1509-1513)
    9. Catalina (1511-1518)
    10. Enrique (b.1512), cardinal
    11. Eduardo, Duke of Guimarães (b.1515) married Isabella of Braganza (b.1514)
  5. Maria (b.1482) married Louis XIII, King of France (b.1462) in 1507
  6. Beatrice (1482)
  7. Catalina (b.1485) married Ferdinand III, King of Naples (b.1488) in 1505
Philibert I, Duke of Savoy (1480-1508) married Yolande Louise of Savoy (1487-1507)
  1. Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503)
  2. Bianca (b. 1505)
  3. miscarriage 1506
  4. Philip (b. 1507)


notes
*matches who bring an union between Burgundy and Lorraine are something who I really like
**Isabella Beatrice Sforza is the daughter and only child of Ercole Massimiliano Sforza (aka Maximilian I of Milan, eldest son of Ludovico Sforza "il Moro" and Beatrice d'Este) and of his wife and cousin Bona Sforza (daughter of Gian Galeazzo Sforza and Isabella of Aragon-Naples). Maximilian's younger brother Francesco (OTL Francis II) decided who he had no intention to make Bona and Isabella his enemies contesting his niece's claim and instead supported her


Already established matches to be add and other things

  • Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond will marry Katherine Herbert (I do not know how many children they will have) and their eldest son (Edmund?/Jasper?/Henry?/William?/Owen?/Arthur?) will marry either Elizabeth or Anne of York
  • Edward of Clarence, Earl of Warwick will die young, while Margaret of Clarence will be married soon after to Edward of Middleham and their son and only surviving child, Richard, Duke of Gloucester (also Earl of Warwick and Earl of Salisbury) will marry Elizabeth or Anne of York, unless Anne Isabelle of England is still available for him
  • Louis, Duke of Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and will remarry before becoming King to Charlotte of Naples with a surviving son and daughter
  • Gaston de Foix, Viscount of Narbonne, his sister Germaine de Foix, Francis, Duke of Angouleme and his sister Marguerite d‘Angouleme will be all wards of the future Louis XIII after the deaths of their fathers.
  • Pierre, Duke of Bourbon will live longer and his daughter Suzanne will marry Alencon
  • Catherine of Navarre and Jean d’Albret will have their OTL children
  • Frederick of Aragon will became King of Naples and will have his OTL children
  • John Stewart, Duke of Albany will likely have surviving children (either by Anne or he will remarry to Madeleine after Anne’s early death)
for France: the Duke d’Orleans will remarry to Charlotte of Naples, they will have a surviving son and daughter, she will die in 1506 (like OTL) in childbirth and Louis XIII will remarry again in 1507 to Maria of Aragon (Catalina had married Ferdinand III of Naples in 1505).
Germaine of Foix will marry Francis, Duke of Angoulême in a double match with Gaston, Viscount of Narbonne and Marguerite of Angouleme while Suzanne, Duchess of Bourbon will marry Charles, Duke d’Alençon and Anne of Foix-Candale will marry Francis II, Duke of Longueville. The Bourbon-Montpensier line will die as both Louis and Charles will die childless, while the Angouleme, Narbonne, Alençon and Longueville lines will survive...
I still do not know if the successor of Louis XIII will be the son of Charlotte or that boy will die young and Louis’ successor will be born from his ATL third wedding...

Edward of Warwick was mostly a victim of the circumstances (aka I needed Richard of Gloucester feeling safer and giving him the whole Warwick inheritance was the best way to get it so I killed off Edward of Warwick and married Margaret to her double first cousin)

I do not have any idea about eventual remarriages for Richard of York, Catherine of York and Juana of Naples right now...
 
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Trees and notes - updated version
  • Index

    • isabella

    Another round of updates for the trees (still work-in-progress and still with France missing)
    (mostly around 1510)

    Edward IV, King of England (1442–1486) married Elizabeth Woodville (1440-1492) in 1464
    1. Elizabeth of York (b.1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1483
      1. See under Maximilian for issue
    2. Mary of York (1467-1482)
    3. Cecily of York (b.1469) married James IV, King of Scotland (b.1473) in 1484
      1. Margaret of Scotland (b.1485) married Christian II, King of Denmark (b. 1481)
      2. James, Duke of Rothesay (1487-1488)
      3. Elizabeth (b.1489)
      4. James V, King of Scotland (b.1492) married Bianca of Austria (b.1497)
      5. Alexander (b. 1494)
    4. Edward V of England (b.1470) married Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b.1477) in 1490
      1. Edward, Prince of Wales (1492-1497)
      2. Richard III, King of England (b.1494) married Beatrice of Austria (b. 1495)
      3. Elizabeth (1497-1500)
      4. Anne Isabelle (1500) married Ernest II, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1490)
      5. Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b.1502)
      6. Katherine (b. 1505)
    5. Margaret of York (1472-1472)
    6. Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1473) married a) Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (1472-1493) in 1478 b) Joanna of Aragon-Naples (b. 1478) in 1497
      1. a) Edward, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1488)
      2. a) Elizabeth of York (b.1490) married Henry Tudor, Duke of Richmond (b. 1488)
      3. a) Anne of York (b.1493) married Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1491)
    7. Anne of York (b.1475) married Philip, Duke of Burgundy (b.1478) in 1493
      1. See under Philip for issue
    8. George, Duke of Bedford (1477-1479)
    9. Catherine of York (b.1479) married Juan, Prince of Asturias (1478-1497) in 1494
    10. Bridget of York (b.1480) nun

    Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) married a) Mary, Duchess of Burgundy (1457-1482) in 1477 b) Elizabeth of York (b.1466-1492) in 1482 c) Bianca Maria Sforza (b.1472) in 1494

    1a) Philip of Burgundy (1478-1500), Duke of Burgundy married Anne of York (b. 1475) in 1493​
    1) Mary II, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1495) married Antoine, Duke of Lorraine and Burgundy (b. 1489) in 1507*​
    2) miscarriage (1498)​
    3) Charles (1499-1500)​
    2a) Margaret of Burgundy (1480-1510) married Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1498) in 1492​
    1) Anne Marie of France (1495-1506)​
    2) Louis XII, King of France (1497-1507)​
    3a) Francis (1481)​
    4b) stillborn son (1485)​
    5b) Eleanor (b.1487) married Vladislaus II Jagiellon, King of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1456) in 1502​
    5b) Ernest II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1490) married Anne Isabelle of England (b. 1500)​
    6b) Elizabeth (b.1492) married Sigismund I the Old, King of Poland (b.1467) in 1510​
    8c) Beatrice (b.1495) married Richard III, King of England (b. 1494)​
    9c) Bianca (b. 1497) married James V, King of Scotland (b. 1492)​
    10c) miscarriage (1498)​
    11c) Frederick (1502-1508)​
    12c) Isabella (b. 1504) married Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503)​
    13c) Maximilian II, Duke of Milan (b.1507) married Isabella Beatrice Sforza, Duchess of Milan and Bari (b.1515)** ​


    Ferdinand II, King of Aragon (1452-1518) married Isabella I, Queen of Castile (1451-1506) in 1469
    1. Isabella (1470-1505), Princess of Portugal married Alfonso, Prince of Portugal (1475-1491) in 1490
    2. miscarried son (1475)
    3. Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona (1478-1497) married Catherine of York (b. 1479) in 1494
      1. Isabella (1496-1497)
      2. Juana (1497)
    4. Juana I, Queen of Castile and Aragon (b.1479) married Manuel I, King of Portugal (b.1469) in 1496
      1. Juan III, King of Spain (b.1497) married Madeleine, Queen of Navarre (b.1494) in 1511
      2. Isabella (b. 1498) married
      3. stillborn daughter
      4. Ferdinand, Duke of Beja (b.1502) married Guiomar Coutinho, Duchess of Guarda (b. 1510)
      5. Alfonso (b.1505)
      6. Luis (1506-1507)
      7. Beatrice (b.1508)
      8. Maria (1509-1513)
      9. Catalina (1511-1518)
      10. Enrique (b.1512), cardinal
      11. Eduardo, Duke of Guimarães (b.1515) married Isabella of Braganza (b.1514)
    5. Maria (b.1482) married Louis XIII, King of France (b.1462) in 1507
    6. Beatrice (1482)
    7. Catalina (b.1485) married Ferdinand III, King of Naples (b.1488) in 1505
    Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (1480-1508) married Yolande Louise of Savoy (1487-1507)
    1. Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503) married Isabella of Austria (b. 1504)
    2. Bianca (b. 1505)
    3. miscarriage (1506)
    4. Philip (b. 1507)


    notes
    *matches who bring an union between Burgundy and Lorraine are something who I really like
    **Isabella Beatrice Sforza is the daughter and only child of Ercole Massimiliano Sforza (aka Maximilian I of Milan, eldest son of Ludovico Sforza "il Moro" and Beatrice d'Este) and of his wife and cousin Bona Sforza (daughter of Gian Galeazzo Sforza and Isabella of Aragon-Naples). Maximilian's younger brother Francesco (OTL Francis II) decided who he had no intention to make Bona and Isabella his enemies contesting his niece's claim and instead supported her


    Already established matches to be add and other things

    • Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond will marry Katherine Herbert (I do not know how many children they will have) and their eldest surviving son Henry will marry Elizabeth of York
    • Edward of Clarence, Earl of Warwick will die young, while Margaret of Clarence will be married soon after to Edward of Middleham and their son and only surviving child, Richard, Duke of Gloucester (also Earl of Warwick and Earl of Salisbury) will marry Anne of York
    • Louis, Duke of Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and will remarry before becoming King to Charlotte of Naples with a surviving daughter and a short-living son
    • Gaston de Foix, Viscount of Narbonne, his sister Germaine de Foix, Francis, Duke of Angouleme and his sister Marguerite d‘Angouleme will be all wards of the future Louis XIII after the deaths of their fathers.
    • Pierre, Duke of Bourbon will live longer and his daughter Suzanne will marry Alencon
    • Catherine of Navarre and Jean d’Albret will have their OTL children
    • Frederick of Aragon will became King of Naples and will have his OTL children
    • John Stewart, Duke of Albany will likely have surviving children (either by Anne or he will remarry to Madeleine after Anne’s early death)
    for France: the Duke d’Orleans will remarry to Charlotte of Naples, they will have a surviving daughter and a son who will die young, she will die in 1506 (like OTL) in childbirth and Louis XIII will remarry again in 1507 to Maria of Aragon (Catalina had married Ferdinand III of Naples in 1505).
    Germaine of Foix will marry Francis, Duke of Angoulême in a double match with Gaston, Viscount of Narbonne and Marguerite of Angouleme while Suzanne, Duchess of Bourbon will marry Charles, Duke d’Alençon and Anne of Foix-Candale will marry Francis II, Duke of Longueville. The Bourbon-Montpensier line will die as both Louis and Charles will die childless, while the Angouleme, Narbonne, Alençon and Longueville lines will survive...


    Edward of Warwick was mostly a victim of the circumstances (aka I needed Richard of Gloucester feeling safer and giving him the whole Warwick inheritance was the best way to get it so I killed off Edward of Warwick and married Margaret to her double first cousin)
     
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