A surviving Yorkist Europe

[isabella]

Work in progress... (maybe I will add Spain, Portugal and France when I will have sorted them)

Edward IV, King of England (1442–1486) married Elizabeth Woodville (1440-1492) in 1464​

1. Elizabeth of York (b.1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1483
   1. See under Maximilian for issue
2. Mary of York (1467-1482)
3. Cecily of York (b.1469) married James IV, King of Scotland (b.1473) in 1484
   1. Margaret of Scotland (b.1485)
   2. James, Duke of Rothesay (1487-1488)
   3. Elizabeth (b.1489)
   4. James V, King of Scotland (b.1492)
   5. Alexander (b. 1494)
4. Edward V of England (b.1470) married Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b.1477) in 1490
   1. Edward, Prince of Wales (1492-1497)
   2. Richard III, King of England (b.1494)
   3. Elizabeth (1497-1500)
   4. Anne Isabelle (1500)
   5. Francis III, Duke of Brittany (b.1502)
   6. Katherine (b. 1505)
5. Margaret of York (1472-1472)
6. Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1473) married a) Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk(1472-1493) in 1478
   1. Edward, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1488)
   2. Elizabeth of York (b.1490)
   3. Anne of York (b.1493)
7. Anne of York (b.1475) married Philip, Duke of Burgundy (b.1478-1500) in 1493
   1. See under Philip for issue
8. George, Duke of Bedford (1477-1479)
9. Catherine of York (b.1479) married Juan, Prince of Asturias (1478-1497) in 1494
10. Bridget of York (b.1480) nun

Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) married a) Mary, Duchess of Burgundy (1457-1482) in 1477 b) Elizabeth of York (b.1466-1492) in 1482 c) Bianca Maria Sforza (b.1472) in 1494

1a) Philip of Burgundy (1478-1500), Duke of Burgundy married Anne of York (b. 1475) in 1493​

1) Mary II, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1495) married Antoine, Duke of Lorraine and Burgundy (b. 1489) in 1507*​

2) miscarriage (1498)​

3) Charles (1499-1500)​

2a) Margaret of Burgundy (1480-1510), Queen of France married Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1498) in 1492​

1) Anne Marie of France (1495-1506)​

2) Louis XII, King of France (1497-1506)​

3a) Francis (1481)​

4b) stillborn son (1485)​

5b) Eleanor (b.1487), Queen of Hungary and Bohemia married Vladislaus II Jagiellon, King of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1456) in 1502​

5b) Ernest II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1490)​

6b) Elizabeth (b.1492), Queen of Poland married Sigismund I the Old, King of Poland (b.1467) in 1510​

8c) Bianca (b.1495) married James V of Scotland​

9c) Beatrice (b. 1497) married Richard III of England ​

10c) Isabella (b.1498) married Christian II of Denmark​

11c) Frederick (1502-1508)​

12c) miscarriage (1504)​

13c) Maximilian II, Duke of Milan (b.1507) married Isabella Beatrice Sforza, Duchess of Milan and Bari (b.1515)**​

Philibert I, Duke of Savoy (1480-1508) married Yolande Louise of Savoy (1487-1507)

1. Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b. 1503)
2. Bianca (b. 1505)
3. miscarriage 1506
4. Philip (b. 1507)

notes
*matches who bring an union between Burgundy and Lorraine are something who I really like
**Isabella Beatrice Sforza is the daughter and only child of Ercole Massimiliano Sforza (aka Maximilian I of Milan, eldest son of Ludovico Sforza "il Moro" and Beatrice d'Este) and of his wife and cousin Bona Sforza (daughter of Gian Galeazzo Sforza and Isabella of Aragon-Naples). Maximilian's younger brother Francesco (OTL Francis II) decided who he had no intention to make Bona and Isabella his enemies contesting his niece's claim and instead supported her

I am wondering about what doing with Spain, Portugal, France and Navarre in this scenario...
the only things I know are:

• Louis, duke d’Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and likely will remarry before becoming King but I do not know who will be his second bride
• Dowager Queen Marguerite of France will be back in Burgundy with her dower lands after the death of her children
• Navarre will be united to Spain with a wedding in a couple of generations
• Milan will have more or less its OTL fate, contested between France and Imperial backed Sforza and will end ruled by an half-Sforza Habsburg married to the Sforza heiress
• Burgundy and Lorraine will be united in a Kingdom of Lotharingia under Charles I, son of Mary and Antoine

 

[kasumigenx]

I am wondering about what doing with Spain, Portugal, France, Navarre and Savoy in this scenario...
the only things I know are:

• Louis, duke d’Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and likely will remarry before becoming King but I do not know who will be his second bride
• Dowager Queen Marguerite of France will be back in Burgundy with her dower lands after the death of her children
• Navarre will be united to Spain with a wedding in a couple of generations
• Milan will have more or less its OTL fate, contested between France and Imperial backed Sforza and will end ruled by an half-Sforza Habsburg married to the Sforza heiress

The dowager queen will marry the IOTL Louis XII aka the Duke of Orleans or the OTL Charles III of Savoy.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I like it. If I can ask - what fate do you imagine for Henry Tudor TTL? Most TL's I've come across generally have him coming back to England at some point and swearing fealty to the Yorks in exchange for getting some land back.

 

[isabella]

The dowager queen will marry the IOTL Louis XII aka the Duke of Orleans or the OTL Charles III of Savoy.

Marguerite here will not remarry as she would not lose custody of her children and she would die just few years after them.
Savoy well I do not exactly what doing with them but OTL Charles III will likely never become Duke of Savoy here...
My favored option at the moment see Yolande surviving and Savoy being ruled by her descendants with Philibert.

I like it. If I can ask - what fate do you imagine for Henry Tudor TTL? Most TL's I've come across generally have him coming back to England at some point and swearing fealty to the Yorks in exchange for getting some land back.

I do not know. Richard III’s Queen would bring some legitimate Lancastrian blood to the York‘s Kings (for now she is Beatrice of Austria, who can be replaced by a Spanish or Portuguese princess with the same blood) and Brittany is firmly in the Yorkist camp so he has zero options. Most likely Margaret Beaufort will pay an high price to the King for consenting the return of her son and his uncle and once back he will be married to some girl more-or-less tied to the Yorkist (most likely his first fiancé who was sister-in-law of one of Queen Elizabeth’s sister ) inheriting his mother’s (remaining) lands after her death likely together with his father’s title... Still almost a nobody...
Edward of Clarence/Warwick will die young and Richard of Gloucester will not lose time in marrying Margaret to his son Edward of Middleham (who will live).
Edit: I forgotten to check the tree before answering so is Richard, 3dr Duke of Gloucester (aka Edward and Margaret’s only child and heir) who will marry one between Princess Anna Isabelle, Elizabeth of York or Anne of York (and either of the York girls will likely end as next Countess of Richmond)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I like it. If I can ask - what fate do you imagine for Henry Tudor TTL? Most TL's I've come across generally have him coming back to England at some point and swearing fealty to the Yorks in exchange for getting some land back.

Teach him how to dance a gallows' jig?

 

[isabella]

@John Fredrick Parker: I corrected a mistake and added another details about Tudor’s future...

 

[isabella]

Teach him how to dance a gallows' jig?

He will never be in the position of being King but will end as a powerful member of the English aristocracy with a junior princess (niece of both the King and his OTL wife) as daughter-in-law

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Most likely Margaret Beaufort will pay an high price to the King for consenting the return of her son and his uncle and once back he will be married to some girl more-or-less tied to the Yorkist (most likely his first fiancé who was sister-in-law of one of Queen Elizabeth’s sister ) inheriting his mother’s (remaining) lands after her death likely together with his father’s title... Still almost a nobody...

Harry was engaged to Liz Wydeville's niece, Elizabeth Herbert, daughter of the earl of Pembroke. Herbert was the poorest earl of his generation, and married Richard III's bastard daughter after Mary Wydeville died. He had two daughters (from what I can find), the elder was engaged to Thomas, only child of the marquess of Berkeley (William Waste-All), but Tom died young and there's no mention of his Herbert fiancée after that, so it's likely to assume she didn't survive either. Then, the younger, Elizabeth, was engaged to Harry Tudor, then to someone else (when it looked like Harry wouldn't be coming home), and finally wedded to the earl of Worcester (bastard cousin of Harry Tudor, ancestor of the dukes of Beaufort).

 

[isabella]

Harry was engaged to Liz Wydeville's niece, Elizabeth Herbert, daughter of the earl of Pembroke. Herbert was the poorest earl of his generation, and married Richard III's bastard daughter after Mary Wydeville died. He had two daughters (from what I can find), the elder was engaged to Thomas, only child of the marquess of Berkeley (William Waste-All), but Tom died young and there's no mention of his Herbert fiancée after that, so it's likely to assume she didn't survive either. Then, the younger, Elizabeth, was engaged to Harry Tudor, then to someone else (when it looked like Harry wouldn't be coming home), and finally wedded to the earl of Worcester (bastard cousin of Harry Tudor, ancestor of the dukes of Beaufort).

You are sure who the fiancé of Henry was Elizabeth Herbert, the niece of the Queen? Her father is only six years older than Tudor so I guess Henry was ward of her grandfather (both the first and the second Earl are called William) and engaged to one of her aunts as the 1st Earl had six daughters: Cecilie, Maud, Katherine, Anne, Isabel and Margaret and any of them would be a more credible fiancé for Henry than their niece (who in OTL was ward of Henry VII before marrying Worchester)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

You are sure who the fiancé of Henry was Elizabeth Herbert, the niece of the Queen? Her father is only six years older than Tudor so I guess Henry was ward of her grandfather (both the first and the second Earl are called William) and engaged to one of her aunts as the 1st Earl had six daughters: Cecilie, Maud, Katherine, Anne, Isabel and Margaret and any of them would be a more credible fiancé for Henry than their niece.

Maud (b.1448) married the earl of Northumberland in 1473/76
Margaret (b. 1448) married Talbot, but I can't find a date
Cecily (b.1456) married John Greystoke in 1484 - so she could've been the one engaged to Harry,
Isabell (b.1462) married Thomas Greville of Cokesey
Anne (b.1464) married Baron Powis in 1471
Katherine (b.1464) would have married the earl of Kent after 1489 (so she's possible)

However, since Harry is spoken of (can't remember where this was), as being the intended of the earl of Huntingdon's daughter (William Herbert's title from 1479 until 1491), and Herbert wanted to restore his family's influence after being ousted from Wales (on becoming earl of Huntingdon), a match between his daughter and Harry Tudor, earl of Richmond would make sense. Not to mention that Maggie B had a high opinion of her son's quasi-royal birth, plus her ties to the York court at the time mean she would've bargained for someone connected to the king - a niece (although she might've been looking at one of the Neville granddaughters rather than a half-Wydeville).

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I do not know. Richard III’s Queen would bring some legitimate Lancastrian blood to the York‘s Kings (for now she is Beatrice of Austria, who can be replaced by a Spanish or Portuguese princess with the same blood) and Brittany is firmly in the Yorkist camp so he has zero options. Most likely Margaret Beaufort will pay an high price to the King for consenting the return of her son and his uncle and once back he will be married to some girl more-or-less tied to the Yorkist (most likely his first fiancé who was sister-in-law of one of Queen Elizabeth’s sister ) inheriting his mother’s (remaining) lands after her death likely together with his father’s title... Still almost a nobody...
Edward of Clarence/Warwick will die young and Richard of Gloucester will not lose time in marrying Margaret to his son Edward of Middleham (who will live).
Edit: I forgotten to check the tree before answering so is Richard, 3dr Duke of Gloucester (aka Edward and Margaret’s only child and heir) who will marry one between Princess Anna Isabelle, Elizabeth of York or Anne of York (and either of the York girls will likely end as next Countess of Richmond)

Harry was engaged to Liz Wydeville's niece, Elizabeth Herbert, daughter of the earl of Pembroke. Herbert was the poorest earl of his generation, and married Richard III's bastard daughter after Mary Wydeville died. He had two daughters (from what I can find), the elder was engaged to Thomas, only child of the marquess of Berkeley (William Waste-All), but Tom died young and there's no mention of his Herbert fiancée after that, so it's likely to assume she didn't survive either. Then, the younger, Elizabeth, was engaged to Harry Tudor, then to someone else (when it looked like Harry wouldn't be coming home), and finally wedded to the earl of Worcester (bastard cousin of Harry Tudor, ancestor of the dukes of Beaufort).

If I can make an absolutely bonkers suggestion then - supposing Henry Tudor TTL, having far less fortune to his name, has an alt-son (let's call him Arthur), who gets to be so desperate, despite notable talent, that he ends up in the New World... then goes full Cristobal de Olid, and in the process himself "the rightful King of England, King of France, and Holy Roman Emperor". I will be the first to admit that this is a very half-baked idea, but I couldn't help but share the image.

 

[isabella]

Maud (b.1448) married the earl of Northumberland in 1473/76
Margaret (b. 1448) married Talbot, but I can't find a date
Cecily (b.1456) married John Greystoke in 1484 - so she could've been the one engaged to Harry,
Isabell (b.1462) married Thomas Greville of Cokesey
Anne (b.1464) married Baron Powis in 1471
Katherine (b.1464) would have married the earl of Kent after 1489 (so she's possible)

However, since Harry is spoken of (can't remember where this was), as being the intended of the earl of Huntingdon's daughter (William Herbert's title from 1479 until 1491), and Herbert wanted to restore his family's influence after being ousted from Wales (on becoming earl of Huntingdon), a match between his daughter and Harry Tudor, earl of Richmond would make sense. Not to mention that Maggie B had a high opinion of her son's quasi-royal birth, plus her ties to the York court at the time mean she would've bargained for someone connected to the king - a niece (although she might've been looking at one of the Neville granddaughters rather than a half-Wydeville).

I think Margaret Beaufort wanted either her Clarence‘s namesake or, more likely, Anne st.Ledger as bride for her son. Henry’s warden was the 1st Earl and an engagement to one of his daughters (at this point considering age and everything I would say Katherine, 5 years younger than Henry, more than Cecily, 1 year older than him) make more sense. Maybe Henry was engaged at different times to both Katherine and Elizabeth Herbert (but Elizabeth Herbert is only few years older than her namesake Stafford cousin who would be a much better match)... Is possible who someone had mistaken the sister for the daughter?

If I can make an absolutely bonkers suggestion then - supposing Henry Tudor TTL, having far less fortune to his name, has an alt-son (let's call him Arthur), who gets to be so desperate, despite notable talent, that he ends up in the New World... then goes full Cristobal de Olid, and in the process himself "the rightful King of England, King of France, and Holy Roman Emperor". I will be the first to admit that this is a very half-baked idea, but I couldn't help but share the image.

That would be fun, but my Henry Tudor will be a rich and powerful nobleman and his own pretty much disappointing wedding would be fully compensated by the royal one of his son... Calling Henry’s son and heir Arthur is an option but he will marry either Elizabeth or Anne of York, nieces of Edward V and will be a powerful member of his cousin Richard III’s court

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Maybe Henry was engaged at different times to both Katherine and Elizabeth Herbert (but Elizabeth Herbert is only few years older than her namesake Stafford cousin who would be a much better match)... Is possible who someone had mistaken the sister for the daughter?

Croyland Chronicle is the source that describes the arrangement between Tudor and Elizabeth who it lists as daughter of the earl of Huntingdon - not daughter of the earl of Pembroke (which would've been likely had it been one of her aunts).

 

[isabella]

Croyland Chronicle is the source that describes the arrangement between Tudor and Elizabeth who it lists as daughter of the earl of Huntingdon - not daughter of the earl of Pembroke (which would've been likely had it been one of her aunts).

Most likely the writer himself had mistaken the identity of Henry’s fiancé because at the time most likely for the arrangement of a match between Henry Tudor and any Herbert girl (1561-1569, with the betrothal put aside after the death of the 1st Earl), Elizabeth was not yet born. Weddings between wealthy wards and relatives of their wardens were pretty common (including Henry’s own parents) so Henry’s engagement to one of Pembroke‘s daughters (and is possible who the bride was not named in the contract) was pretty much guaranteed. The younger William was Earl of Pembroke before being Earl of Huntington and shared the first name with his father and that added to the fact who Elizabeth herself was for some time ward of Henry VII is enough to explain the mistake for me...

 

[isabella]

Any suggestion for:

• Spain
• Portugal
• France

The fates of Navarre and Naples are strictly related to Spain.

Decided:

• I have edited the tree with Savoy (where Philibert I will have two sons and a daughter by Yolande Louise)
• Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond will marry Katherine Herbert (I do not know how many children they will have) and their eldest son (Edmund?/Jasper?/Henry?/William?/Owen?/Arthur?) will marry either Elizabeth or Anne of York
• Louis, Duke of Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and will remarry before becoming King (to who?)
• Gaston de Foix, Viscount of Narbonne, his sister Germaine de Foix, Francis, Duke of Angouleme and his sister Marguerite d‘Angouleme will be all wards of the future Louis XIII after the deaths of their fathers.
• Pierre, Duke of Bourbon will live longer and his daughter Suzanne will marry Alencon
• Catherine of Navarre and Jean d’Albret will have their OTL children
• Frederick of Aragon will became King of Naples and will have his OTL children

For Spain I have three options:

• Spain will be inherited by children of Juan and Catherine of York
• Catalina is born as boy (Fernando) who will marry Madeleine d’Albret (with Henry II dying like his brothers)
• Juana married Manuel of Portugal and they will inherit Spain

With the second option I think possible who Isabella of Aragon’s husband Alfonso will live and their children will rule Portugal...
In all this scenarios I can see two alternatives for Naples: either annexed by Aragon as OTL or given back to Ferdinand, duke of Calabria (King Frederick’s son) as dowry for his wedding to one of the daughters of Ferdinand and Isabella

 

[Brita]

Any suggestion for:

• Spain
• Portugal
• France

The fates of Navarre and Naples are strictly related to Spain.

Decided:
I have edited the tree with Savoy (where Philibert I will have two sons and a daughter by Yolande Louise)

Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond will marry Katherine Herbert (I do not know how many children they will have) and their eldest son (Edmund?/Jasper?/Henry?/William?/Owen?/Arthur?) will marry either Elizabeth or Anne of York

Louis, Duke of Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and will remarry before becoming King (to who?)
Gaston de Foix, Viscount of Narbonne, his sister Germaine de Foix, Francis, Duke of Angouleme and his sister Marguerite d‘Angouleme will be all wards of the future Louis XIII after the deaths of their fathers.
Pierre, Duke of Bourbon will live longer and his daughter Suzanne will marry Alencon

If Louis of Orléans/Louis XIII is claiming Milan, maybe he could decide to marry an Italian wife to try and strenghthen his claim (young Bona Sforza maybe?) so I'm not sure her family would agree. Or an alt-equivalent to Mary Tudor if English and French relationships aren't too bad.

 

[isabella]

If Louis of Orléans/Louis XIII is claiming Milan, maybe he could decide to marry an Italian wife to try and strenghthen his claim (young Bona Sforza maybe?) so I'm not sure her family would agree. Or an alt-equivalent to Mary Tudor if English and French relationships aren't too bad.

Bona is out of question as her brother was taken captive and died in France, plus she will marry her cousin Maximilian (who here will die in battle against the French instead of being taken captive as OTL) and their daughter will bring her claim and Milan as dowry to the youngest son of Maximilian I (his only surviving son by his third wife Bianca Maria)

 

[Brita]

Bona is out of question as her brother was taken captive and died in France, plus she will marry her cousin Maximilian (who here will die in battle against the French instead of being taken captive as OTL) and their daughter will bring her claim and Milan as dowry to the youngest son of Maximilian I (his only surviving son by his third wife Bianca Maria)

Ah true, I skipped it. Hmm I wonder if a Savoy match would do. Both Charlotte and Louise made French matches so what about Francesca of Savoy, daughter of Jacques de Savoie-Romont?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Louis, Duke of Orleans will become King Louis XIII of France and will remarry before becoming King (to who?)

Louise of Savoy, might be a good candidate. A Sforza girl (one of il Moro's nieces), and Charlotte of Naples, Comtesse de Laval is IN France from the 1480s/early 1490s when Anne of Beaujeu considered her (briefly) as an alternative to Margarethe of Austria. Another Italian match might be Lucrezia Borgia (if Alexander VI still winds up as pope and pro-French) or one of Ercole I d'Este's daughters.

Germaine de Foix or Anne de Foix might wind up as queen of Hungary or Poland in an extreme circumstance where somehow Maximilian's daughters are unacceptable.

 

[isabella]

Ah true, I skipped it. Hmm I wonder if a Savoy match would do. Both Charlotte and Louise made French matches so what about Francesca of Savoy, daughter of Jacques de Savoie-Romont?

I was wondering if Louise herself would not be a good match for Orleans... He would be free to remarry in 1499 as the dealing of the ATL regency for Louis XII will free him from his wedding to Jeanne and at the same time the Bourbon’s inheritance would be secured to Suzanne. Louise would still be in early 20s and mother of his heir presumptiv, sister of the Duke of Savoy and a woman smart and fertile