Sure you could. Launch from Alaska and fly over the North Pole/Bering Strait; you've certainly got the range for it. Or launch from the West Coast and fly over the North Pacific. Or launch from the East Coast and fly over the Atlantic and Arctic; again, you've certainly got the range for any ridiculous roundabout track you want. Nothing there but ocean...
A Sound of Thunder: The Rise of the Soviet Superbooster
- Thread starter nixonshead
- Start date
and highly predictable flight zones which is why those weren't being considered
The point was Pluto had the capability to come from anywhere at very low altitude making it very difficult to intercept. But considering it's a Mach-3, white hot, crowbar that can't 'jink' very well if you have a good idea where it might come from...It's one of the main reasons it got axed in the end. The OTHER main reason was how the heck do you flight test the damn thing.... And where? And what happens when (not if) things go wrong?
They fully expected SLAM to be a LOT harder than it actually turned out to be surprisingly. Even the airframe was a lot more straightforward than they expected, the reactor was actually easier than NERVA despite having to deal with hot oxygen in the flow. I'm not kidding about the flight testing issues as they actually reached the point where the next step was going to BE flight testing with no idea how to actually do it
(I'm fond of the concept of literally chaining it to an island and having it fly around in circles till you dump it in that nearby convenient deep sea trench
Randy
...the Arctic coastline of Russia is 24 000 kilometers long. Knowing that PLUTO is going to fly in over the Arctic is about equal to knowing that a cruise missile is going to come in somewhere over the coast of the United States (and not over the border with Canada or Mexico). That is a long, long ways from "highly predictable". It's certainly a lot less predictable than ICBM flight paths. You have LOTS of options given the choices I laid out for drawing flight paths that will still get you to whatever targets you have without being "highly predictable" since you have basically infinite range and can do all sorts of ridiculous maneuvering inside of Russia.and highly predictable flight zones which is why those weren't being considered
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Well the first generation Sokol suits were derived from a high-altitude flight suit, really just replacing the original removable hard helmet with an integrated collapsable visored hood.
So essentially it makes the justification sound like another 'excuse' not to proceed. (Not like I think they needed another one but the more the merrier I guess)
As for the 'infinite range' and maneuverability part of the key there was "inside Russia" because the design was built around low-altitude, high speed operations rather than being able to significantly maneuver at high altitude and speed. Hence the idea of the early "TerCom" and low level operations so they got 'down-in-the-dirt' before they got into the USSR's radar envelope. But again big hot target is still a thing and in context the expected 'counter-measure' was nuclear armed anti-aircraft missiles in salvos so...
IIRC the specs had the reactor "probably" holding together anywhere from 72 hours to a bit over 100 hours with the air frame being a bit less durable (72 hours might be pushing it but it depended if it gained altitude to cool off which was a possibility) with various trade offs looked at for the overall mission profile. Part of the reason the Pluto didn't do a lot of maneuvering outside the USSR was the limits of the then current guidance systems, part of the reason for having a simple 'route' once inside the USSR was the "TerCom" system was limited due to the speed and altitude of the missile and the difficulty of 'seeing' out while at high speed. The likelihood Pluto being able to 'accurately' drop it's warheads was questionable but then again a treetop, Mach3, unshielded gigawatt reactor was arguably the primary weapon of the concept anyway.
Randy
Interesting how far we enter the Dr. Strangelove Territory
Although this a TL about Soviet Space Flight !
can we return to Topic, please ?
Although this a TL about Soviet Space Flight !
can we return to Topic, please ?
This detour onto flying nuclear reactors is at least tangentially related to the Soviet gas-cored NTRs and ammonia-fluorine rockets that spawned it! I think the real upshot is that the audience wants to see mad Soviet upper stages. ...which most likely explode on the pad and contaminate Baikonur until the end of time, but still. They'd be very impressive explosions!
(The discussion from here is welcome to continue over in the LEVIATHAN Rising thread, as it is absolutely relevant and on point.)
Uhm, not so much really as even the Soviets were 'hesitant' over using nuclear engines to launch with
And "upper stages" as you note are not going to be engaged until they are at altitude so it things go wrong at launch you only have slightly higher than background 'junk' rather than active horrible radioactive death Randy
marathag
Banned
Control Line aircraft was a popular hobby at the time, from the small .049cu.in. Cox Motors to the top . 35 Fox and K&B size motors
Thanks! We'll see in the next Post just how far the paranoia extends.
Read on
They're still just in normal flight suits for now, not pressure suits. After all, they fixed the problem, and it's not like anyone died!
We will explore US butterflies, promise! But not just yet.
Nothing that can't be fixed with duct tape, I'm sure.
I must admit I didn't, but I understand it's a reference to Chris Hadfield's book The Apollo Murders. I'll have to add that to my reading list.
No comment on exotic propellants and doomsday weapons, other than: YIKES!
Post 4: Crisis on Almaz
Post 4: Crisis on Almaz
"We swallowed a lot of problems for a lot of days because we were reluctant to admit publicly that we were not getting things done right. That's ridiculous, [but] that's human behavior."
- Gerald P. Carr, Commander Skylab 4
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Reports from Soyuz 12 on 4th March 1973 confirmed suspicions that had already formed on the ground that Almaz had been impacted by an object that had severely damaged one of the two deployable solar arrays. A flyaround of the station revealed some other minor damage to the hull, probably caused by secondary debris from the initial strike, but no other critical systems appeared to have been affected. With telemetry still showing the station fully pressurised, and with no apparent damage to the docking apparatus, Soyuz 12 was given permission to attempt a manual docking. This was expertly executed by mission commander Pavel Popovich, and at 20:37 Moscow Time on 4th March, Popovich opened the interior hatch and, together with Research Engineer Viktor Patsayev, entered the station.
Popovich and Patsayev found a station in critical condition. It had not been possible for Mission Control to reactivate many of the systems that had tripped when the solar array was lost, including such critical items as the air fans and heating systems. The cosmonauts’ first task was to get these working again, without which they would have to abandon the station and return to Earth. Fortunately, and despite the cold, dark conditions in which they were forced to work, they soon had the vital life support functions up and running, although the continuing power restrictions meant that the temperature control systems were kept off for now. Mission control advised the crew to return to the warmth of Soyuz to sleep overnight, but confirmed that, barring any unforeseen circumstances, they expected the crew to stay on Almaz for the full 24 days of the mission.
Although the cosmonauts were able to get some rest, this was not a luxury for many on the ground, as engineers tried to understand what could have caused the impact. Even before they could complete an initial analysis, the politicians and generals were starting to draw their own conclusions. The extremely low odds of a natural impact event on this scale, coupled with the fact that, suspiciously, it happened whilst Almaz was out of ground communications, as well as the wider context of the race between Almaz and Skylab to be the first space station, and considering the military nature of Almaz… Given such a string of coincidences, it didn’t take long for an opinion to form in the Kremlin that their high-profile space victory may have been the subject of American sabotage.
Over the next days, as Popovich, Patsayev and Artyukhin worked to revive as much of Almaz as possible, Chelomei found himself shuttling between Yevpatoria and Moscow, updating Afanasiev, Ustinov and other Central Committee members on the progress of the investigations. As the investigation continued without a clear answer, Soviet military forces were placed on a heightened alert, and Brezhnev ordered a freeze of ongoing preparations with the Americans for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project. As part of the increased military preparedness, Chelomei was ordered to ready one of his Polet “Fighter Satellites” for a possible retaliatory attack against a US space target. Despite being illegal under the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty signed the previous year, the co-orbital anti-satellite system had been quietly introduced into operations with the Antimissile and Space Defense Forces in January 1973, and Chelomei assured Ustinov that it could be deployed at two weeks’ notice. On orbit, Popovich and his crew were told to ready their experimental R-23M Kartch self-defence cannon, in case some new threat should approach the station.
Fortunately for the world, such drastic measures proved unnecessary, as on 8th March, the fifth day of the mission, TsKBM engineers identified the real culprit behind the damage to Almaz: themselves. Specifically, it was the third stage of the Proton-K rocket that had launched Almaz into orbit. Following separation of the station, the upper stage had remained in a nearby orbit, where it would normally be expected to decay within a couple of months. This time however, the upper stage did not quietly accept its fate. Instead, some novel combination of tank pressures and thermal stresses caused the stage to burst three days after launch. The fragments continued in orbit for a further ten days, until one of them intersected with Almaz at the low point of its orbit, ripping through the solar array[1].
Relief at the news that Almaz had not in fact come under enemy attack didn’t last long before turning into anger, with Chelomei bearing the brunt of the leadership’s fury. Although the panic over a possible attack was now over, the Soyuz 12/Almaz mission was still facing considerable difficulties. Chronic power shortages meant that almost none of the planned experiments could be performed, and the fluctuations of heat and cold within the station made life extremely uncomfortable for the three cosmonauts. The dim lighting of the station meant that photographs and TV broadcasts from the station, intended to maximise the propaganda value of the mission, were of poor quality. Additionally, the unnatural rhythm of the cosmonauts’ work day, synchronised to the periods in which the station was in contact with the ground rather than to a natural 24 hour day, coupled with poor planning of their workload, was leading to exhaustion and short tempers amongst the crew.
The Soviets were able to conceal most of these problems from outsiders, and talked up the achievements of the crew in restoring the station to operations (following “damage from a rare meteoroid strike”), but it was clear that not everything was going to plan. On the fifteenth day on the station, with crew morale at rock-bottom and some of the jerry-rigged life support systems starting to give out, it was decided to end the mission early. Soyuz 12 was brought back to Earth for a rare night-time landing on 19th March. Almaz remained in orbit for a further four months, but plans for follow-up missions to the crippled station were shelved, and it made a controlled re-entry over the Pacific Ocean on 12th July 1973.
Pavel Popovich, seen during a television broadcast from the Almaz space station, 12th March 1973[2]
Already unpopular within the Brezhnev regime (and with Ustinov in particular) due to his earlier close ties to Khrushchev, as well as his exasperatingly slow progress on almost every project to which he was assigned, Chelomei’s political capital now completely evaporated. He remained in place for a few more months, but in September 1973 was finally removed from his post as Chief Designer at TsKBM. His former bureau was merged with KB Energomash to form NPO Energomash, and placed under the control of Valentine Glushko.[3]
Soviet embarrassment over the partial success of Almaz was assuaged somewhat when, following its launch on 14th May, NASA’s Skylab space station suffered an eerily similar incident, losing one of its solar wings and micrometeoroid buffer during ascent. As with the Soviet station, a rescue of the station was performed by the crew of Skylab-2, in a far more elaborate and public demonstration of quick-thinking improvisation and can-do spirit than in the case of Almaz. Skylab would go on to host a total of three crewed missions in 1973, setting a new endurance record of 84 days for the crew of Skylab-4, before being mothballed in orbit.
With the US now largely absent from orbit, and in parallel to the organisational changes happening at NPO Energomash, the Phase 1 Almaz programme continued, and March 1974 saw the launch of Almaz-2. Largely identical to the first OPS station, changes in launch procedures ensured that it didn’t suffer the sort of fratricidal attack from its launch vehicle that had wounded its predecessor, and the signs were optimistic when Soyuz 13 launched three weeks later with cosmonauts Boris Volynov, Lev Dyomin and Valeri Rozhdestvensky aboard. Unfortunately, their mission to dock with the station failed when the Igla automatic rendezvous system malfunctioned, causing the Soyuz to make a number of high-speed close passes of the station before ground controllers were able to shut it down. By the time manual control had been established, Soyuz 13 no longer had enough propellant on board to complete the rendezvous, and so Volynov and his crew were ordered to return to Earth after just two days aloft. TASS declared that the mission had successfully “carried out experiments to perfect the technique of piloting the ship in different flight situations”, but few people believed this, either inside or outside the USSR.[4]
Igla was subjected to some rapid modifications, and Soyuz 14 was ready to launch just three months later. On 25th June 1974, cosmonauts Vyacheslav Zudov, Vladimir Preobrazhenski and Anatoli Berezovoi docked with Almaz-2 on a mission that would last for 28 days, a new Soviet record. As with Almaz-1, television and photographic images released from the mission were dark and grainy, but in this case the reason was a deliberate attempt to conceal features of the military space station rather than a being due to equipment failure. Over the course of their mission, the crew conducted a large number of experiments, mostly military in nature. This included participation in a military exercise, with the crew of Almaz-2 providing near-real time reports of observed troop movements to military headquarters. The mission also exposed the limits of the station and crew, with several equipment failures occurring towards the end of the mission, and the cosmonauts becoming increasingly irritable with one another after many weeks in such close quarters.
Following the completion of the Soyuz 14 mission, Almaz-2 was left in an automatic mode for several months, conducting remotely commanded observations relayed back to Earth via its Avrora secure datalink. Further results were returned to Earth via a small re-entry vehicle, based on those used for Soviet spy satellites, which detached from the station and returned to Earth in November 1974.
Almaz-2 was finally commanded to a destructive re-entry on 5th January 1975. The Almaz-3 space station would be launched later in 1975, hosting missions by Soyuz 15 and 17, but by this time priorities within the space programme were beginning to change, as the Soviet military started to pay serious attention to the US Space Shuttle.
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[1] This is almost exactly what happened to Salyut 2/OPS 1 IOTL, except in that case the Proton debris depressurised the station before a crew could launch, and so the station was abandoned in orbit to fall back to Earth on 28th May 1973.
[2] OTL photo of Popovich inside Salyut 3/OPS 2.
[3] IOTL Glusko would replace Mishin on 17th May 1974, combining KB Energomash with TsKBEM to form NPO Energia.
[4] This failure - and the transparently feeble attempt to cover it up - also occurred IOTL, on Soyuz 15’s mission to Salyut-3. It was an issue with Igla (one of several, in fact), which could easily have resulted in Soyuz colliding with the station at 70+kph.
Hmmm, Chelomei is out, which is big. As expected, Almaz isn't really amounting to a whole lot. That last sentence is interesting...
Well in OTL the Buran program started in 1974 after NPO Energiya was formed under Glusko and came up with the MTKVP and the OS-120 which was a very close copy of the US Space Shuttle and was authorised and became Buran. Now here Mishin has survived while Chelomei has been disgraced so NPO Energiya has a different make up. The Soviets also have a working heavy lift system in the form of the N1M so RLA is going to be a much harder sell. But some sort of response to the Shuttle is unavoidable considering the nature of the Space Race. But with a different starting position, different people and different organisations that response could be very different. I don't think anyone has ever come up with a N1 Shuttle proposal and you couldn't strap a Buran sized orbiter to the side but you could put a smaller reusable orbiter on top....
The butterflies are really flapping.
The butterflies are really flapping.
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They are under vastly less pressure (pardon the pun
) because no one has died... yet... but none the less they will likely develop some sort of "launch and entry" suit anyway. Just in case. Again the good news is they aren't rushed which is what caused them to initially simply limit the crew.People be weird and rather crazy so...
Randy
Smaller as in 2/3 size or bit more, yes? Not smaller as in Hermes size.
My Guess
Buran will be a LKS type Orbiter on Top of N1 or N2 rocket in TL
and will be launch with folded wing configuration.
Buran will be a LKS type Orbiter on Top of N1 or N2 rocket in TL
and will be launch with folded wing configuration.
Well the N1 Block G has a diameter of 4.4 meters against Ariane 5, the launch vehicle for Hermes, having a diameter of 5.4 meters so based on that smaller than Hermes size. The problem with the N1 is it tapers so strongly which makes it. a.) very difficult to do a side mount and b.) restricts the diameter of whatever you put on the top.