Pangur
Donor
That's true as well. However maybe if you have more money, spend it on kit and then have more realistic exercises then yo will surely to some degree find the defects that way
A Matter of National Security
- Thread starter HistoryBossMan
- Start date
In the US case it would be hard for any positive spending decision in 36/37 to be worse than OTL not spending in terms of output later in 1942/43?
I dont see why a couple of old 6" cruisers would inflame tension much the fleet already had 8" CA as flag so its not much extra and anyway the isolationists didn't as a rule care about what the Asians thought it was just keeping out of Europe looking after the China trade was fine they after all had Marines and gunboats looking after it.
It's not so much the ship armament, its the fact that those ships had been transferred in the first place. To the isolationists, increasing the naval presence in the Philippines leads down a road with only one end, war with Japan
Part 0011
July 7, 1937
The Second Sino-Japanese War begins.
July 10th, 1937
The US Navy is authorized to build two more Yorktown-class carriers, Chesapeake and Hornet*. The Philippines are allowed to raise a new fully native division to complement the Philippine Division, thus helping to secure the islands.
* Chesapeake is completely fictional and fits in with the method of naming carriers after older ships, like Wasp and Hornet. Speaking of USS Wasp, ITTL it's a full-fledged Yorktown, not the half-measure it was OTL. It was ordered before the POD, but wasn't laid down until April of 36. By April in my TL, the US had agreed to not build any more ships until the first London Naval Treaty had expired. ITTL, Wasp was laid down on January 2nd. So by July of 37, the US is set to have at least 3 more Yorktown-class carriers than OTL.
The Second Sino-Japanese War begins.
July 10th, 1937
The US Navy is authorized to build two more Yorktown-class carriers, Chesapeake and Hornet*. The Philippines are allowed to raise a new fully native division to complement the Philippine Division, thus helping to secure the islands.
* Chesapeake is completely fictional and fits in with the method of naming carriers after older ships, like Wasp and Hornet. Speaking of USS Wasp, ITTL it's a full-fledged Yorktown, not the half-measure it was OTL. It was ordered before the POD, but wasn't laid down until April of 36. By April in my TL, the US had agreed to not build any more ships until the first London Naval Treaty had expired. ITTL, Wasp was laid down on January 2nd. So by July of 37, the US is set to have at least 3 more Yorktown-class carriers than OTL.
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By the way names Wasp and Hornet are names that go back to some of the first continental navy ships and there have been multiple ships named as such before the carriers. I'd rename Yellow Jacket to another old navy name like Reprisal or Constellation
I know, but since we already have Wasp and Hornet, Yellow Jackat seemed like a no brainer. Don’t worry though, we may just see a Reprisal or Constellation in the future.
It is important that you remember that the carriers Wasp and Hornet were not named after bugs. Those names have long histories with the Navy, but they ultimately go back to the first two ships of the Continental Navy to ever put to sea under an American flag. These two were part of the fleet that sailed in early 1776 to attack Nassau in the Continental Navy's first action. Other ships that sailed with the first squadron included the poorly-named Fly, the Providence, and ships named by the Navy after Andrea Doria, Alfred the Great, Christopher Columbus, and John Cabot.
I know. If it really bothers people too much, then I’ll go and change the name, so if you want me to, tell me.
I personally think that the name should be changed but its ultimately your decision as the author
No I’ll change it. Looking back, Yellow Jacket doesn’t make any sense. To be honest with you, I can’t even remember why I chose that name
Your best options are going to be United States or Constellation from the original six frigates, or Cabot, Reprisal, or Crown Point from unused names for the Essex-class. Of the original six frigates, Constitution was still around while the names of Congress, President, and Chesapeake had been more-or-less disgraced. Additionally, the name Crown Point is basically just another way to say Ticonderoga, and it was invented for one of the Independence-class light carriers. Some names from the Continental Navy made it into the Essex-class, like Hancock and Randolph, and Alliance, which fired the last shots of the Revolutionary War, would be another good option.
Part 0012
July 15th, 1937
15 of the new Benham-class destroyers are laid down. These ships could displace 1,620 tons standard and 2,474 tons fully loaded and came armed with 5 5in dual-purpose guns, 6 .50 caliber machine guns, 10 21inch torpedo tubes and 2 depth charge launchers*.
August 13th, 1937
The Battle of Shanghai begins.
September 3rd, 1937
Grumman engineers put the finishing touches on their new F4F-2 monoplane prototype. Originally having been a biplane, the Navy rejected sich a plane and a complete redesign was down to modernize it. Pretty soon, they'd be ready to present it to the Navy.
December 12th, 1937. USS Panay, Yangtze River, off Nanking
The Nebraskan Marine cleaned his machine gun. After completing basic training, he had been sent to the garrison in Shanghai just in time for the Chinese and Japanese to start killing each other in droves. Well, the killing was mostly one-sided since the Japanese seemed to advance over mountains of Chinese corpses every battle. And should luck have it, here he was crewing a gunboat on a river whose name he couldn't pronounce. He'd volunteered for the position after one of the sailors had managed to get himself killed while coming back from a brothel in Shanghai. Yesterday, they'd all been busy evacuating the last Americans out of Nanking since the city had fallen to the Japanese and now here they were anchored just outside that same city.
He heard a buzzing in the air and saw Japanese planes flying towards them. At first, he thought that they would simply fly over the gunboat, but then the planes broke formation into a dive. That didn't make any sense. There were American flags draped over the ship, in clear view of the swooping planes. It still didn't add up until he saw muzzle flashes. Men screamed as bullets slammed into them and the ship. The fighters rose back up, but a bomber kept coming. The bombs dropped and the plane pulled up. Blast rocketed him off the ship and into the river. He spurted out water as he surfaced, bobbing in the flow of the river. The Panay was sinking, two bombs had been all it took. The survivors began swimming for shore or for cover as the Japanese fighters dove again. The Marine saw the machine guns twinkle and then felt two thuds. He looked down at himself in shock. Blood was leaking from two bullet wounds. He tried to keep swimming but his legs didn't seem to want to move. His head slid under the water as darkness covered him.
*=These stats are from OTL Benson-class since as far as I can tell, they were the first US destroyers that weren't under London Naval Treaty obligations when built.
15 of the new Benham-class destroyers are laid down. These ships could displace 1,620 tons standard and 2,474 tons fully loaded and came armed with 5 5in dual-purpose guns, 6 .50 caliber machine guns, 10 21inch torpedo tubes and 2 depth charge launchers*.
August 13th, 1937
The Battle of Shanghai begins.
September 3rd, 1937
Grumman engineers put the finishing touches on their new F4F-2 monoplane prototype. Originally having been a biplane, the Navy rejected sich a plane and a complete redesign was down to modernize it. Pretty soon, they'd be ready to present it to the Navy.
December 12th, 1937. USS Panay, Yangtze River, off Nanking
The Nebraskan Marine cleaned his machine gun. After completing basic training, he had been sent to the garrison in Shanghai just in time for the Chinese and Japanese to start killing each other in droves. Well, the killing was mostly one-sided since the Japanese seemed to advance over mountains of Chinese corpses every battle. And should luck have it, here he was crewing a gunboat on a river whose name he couldn't pronounce. He'd volunteered for the position after one of the sailors had managed to get himself killed while coming back from a brothel in Shanghai. Yesterday, they'd all been busy evacuating the last Americans out of Nanking since the city had fallen to the Japanese and now here they were anchored just outside that same city.
He heard a buzzing in the air and saw Japanese planes flying towards them. At first, he thought that they would simply fly over the gunboat, but then the planes broke formation into a dive. That didn't make any sense. There were American flags draped over the ship, in clear view of the swooping planes. It still didn't add up until he saw muzzle flashes. Men screamed as bullets slammed into them and the ship. The fighters rose back up, but a bomber kept coming. The bombs dropped and the plane pulled up. Blast rocketed him off the ship and into the river. He spurted out water as he surfaced, bobbing in the flow of the river. The Panay was sinking, two bombs had been all it took. The survivors began swimming for shore or for cover as the Japanese fighters dove again. The Marine saw the machine guns twinkle and then felt two thuds. He looked down at himself in shock. Blood was leaking from two bullet wounds. He tried to keep swimming but his legs didn't seem to want to move. His head slid under the water as darkness covered him.
*=These stats are from OTL Benson-class since as far as I can tell, they were the first US destroyers that weren't under London Naval Treaty obligations when built.
Part 0013
January 2nd, 1938
The aftershocks of the Panay Incident fully settle. While Japan did apologize and pay an indemnity, the American attitude towards Japan reaches new lows. The Navy realizes that their anti-aircraft capabilities are woefully underdeveloped and that the Browning .50 caliber machine gun isn't capable enough to successfully shoot down enemy planes. Seeing as how the domestic 1.1-inch anti-aircraft gun was already denounced as problematic, BuOrd turns to possible foreign solutions. They purchase both a Swiss Oerlikon 20mm cannon and a Swedish Bofors 40mm gun for testing.
March 12, 1938
The German Reich occupy Austria in the Anschluss and official annexation is declared on the 13th
April 15th, 1938
After assessing BuOrd's report, the United States acquires production rights for both the Oerlikon and the Bofors guns.
The aftershocks of the Panay Incident fully settle. While Japan did apologize and pay an indemnity, the American attitude towards Japan reaches new lows. The Navy realizes that their anti-aircraft capabilities are woefully underdeveloped and that the Browning .50 caliber machine gun isn't capable enough to successfully shoot down enemy planes. Seeing as how the domestic 1.1-inch anti-aircraft gun was already denounced as problematic, BuOrd turns to possible foreign solutions. They purchase both a Swiss Oerlikon 20mm cannon and a Swedish Bofors 40mm gun for testing.
March 12, 1938
The German Reich occupy Austria in the Anschluss and official annexation is declared on the 13th
April 15th, 1938
After assessing BuOrd's report, the United States acquires production rights for both the Oerlikon and the Bofors guns.
Well the USN getting proper light and medium AA guns in production years before it enters the war bodes very ill for the IJN's lightly built aircraft.
I think the US needs to make some mistakes as well as fixing things from OTL. I would suggest building more tanks overloaded with machine guns. add some torpedo bombers with over-sized torpedoes. I am an American but the US shouldn't get everything right. That said the torpedo fix makes a lot of sense. The problems would have been spotted with enough money for adequate testing IMO. The tanks overloaded with machine guns was a matter of doctrine not technology as the tanks worked.
Driftless
Donor
My two cents worth on the Omaha's: if the OTL Naval Treaties have functionally been sidelined, see if the USN could find a buyer(s) in the Commonwealth or France. The Omaha's were obsolescent to be sure, but historically they served a useful role in secondary theaters throughout OTL WW2. They were much better ships than the crappy four-pipers. (different roles for the two categories of ships, but the Omaha's would clearly be perceived as a better value by the Treasury of any potential buyer)
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Driftless
Donor
Upgrade the defenses of Pearl Harbor, Panama Canal, and US Pacific Islands? Or would that still have been a problem on both a treaty front, and stirring up the isolationists? I'm assuming there would still be limitations on what would be done in the Philippines, as their independence was scheduled for 1946 anyway, regardless of any other impediments to spending on improvements at this point.
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