Anything west of Hawaii(and technically Alaska) wasn't allowed to have improvements to its fortifications until the treaties died an explosive death when WWII began.
A Matter of National Security
- Thread starter HistoryBossMan
- Start date
Actually, the US could begin work on expanding its base infrastructure and fortifications in the Pacific as early as January 1st 1937 when the Washington Naval Treaty expired. Neither of the two London Navy Treaties renewed Article XIX of the WNT.
And, in fact, work HAD started at Wake and Midway before the US entered the War. It's just that money was funnelled elsewhere that the military.
Midway and Wake are easy. Guam would be really tough to build up enough to hold long enough for relief.
The Philippines need training and equipment. They could probably hold off the Japanese with a few years headstart. Especially if MacArthur isn't in charge.
Problem with any position west of Midway and maybe Wake is that unless the USN is at late 1943 levels in terms of fleet trains and combat ships you aren't resupplying or reinforcing them except by submarine which isn't exactly efficient
Geon
Donor
@HistoryBossMan
The "Like" button doesn't seem to be working here so let me just make this one big "Like" for the whole story thus far. I am interested in seeing how this version of the Panay incident plays out.
The "Like" button doesn't seem to be working here so let me just make this one big "Like" for the whole story thus far. I am interested in seeing how this version of the Panay incident plays out.
But remember, oilers, and I imagine other supply ships, were ordered first - before the warships could be. iTTL, the US will be in MUCH better position, supply wise.
And imagine what subs based out of Wake, with working torpedoes, could do!!
In fact, the greater preparedness of the US may mean a totally different Japanese strategy. If the US has been rearming since '37 instead of mid '40, the whole 'a big enough blow and the effete roundeyes will give up' will be far less tenable.
Of course, depending on how the Panay incident goes, the US and Japan will BOTH be unprepared for a Pacific war.
Part 0014
May 17th, 1938
The Second Vinson Act, or the Naval Act of 1938, comes into effect. In a direct response to both the Panay-incident and the Anschluss, the US Navy is allowed a 20% increase in strength. 3 new fast battleships, their design being completed in late April, are ordered. These ships, named Iowa, New Jersey, and Missouri, come with 9 16-inch/50 cal guns, 20 5-inch/38 cal guns, 80 Bofors guns, and 49 Orelikons.
US production starts to jump the hurdles with the Bofors. It took 2,000 subcontractors and 12 Chrysler factories to make and assemble the parts. Not only that, both the Navy and Army wanted their hand on it. The Army was looking to see if these Bofors guns could serve as a replacement for the 37 mm M3 guns which were also used on the M2's. Chrysler engineers had tried to simplify the production process but hadn't had much luck in that department.
May 20th, 1938
With the Vinson Act passing, the IJN decides to accelerate its own naval plans. While Circle Three was still jugging along and the next major expansion was scheduled for 1940, but now the new Circle Four plan is due to come into effect by September of 1939.
June 25th, 1938. Fort Knox, Kentucky
The 4 former cavalrymen stood in front of their mechanical replacement. They'd been part of the 13th Cavalry Regiment, assigned to the 7th Cavalry Brigade. They were still part of that regiment, but these days the 13th Horse looked more like the 13th Tank. Adna Chaffee had been persistent in incorporating tanks into the brigade, and now the four volunteers had to train on the way of the future. The men got their bearings as they scanned their new positions. The commander also had to serve as the loader and the driver also had to care for two machine guns which he fired. When one of the crew asked why the tank had 5 machine guns, he got a one-word answer, "Doctrine." The crew would become intimately familiar with Army Doctrine as they trained on their new vehicle
August 19th, 1938. Manila, Philippines
Stevedores worked to unload the cargo from the ships which had docked the previous day. This time, the cargo was surplus Air Corps planes, mostly P-26's, B-18's, and Seversky P-35's, which had been hot stuff until it was replaced by the P-36. Men from the 31st Infantry Regiment who were on leave and watching joked about the Philippines being America's junkyard.
The Second Vinson Act, or the Naval Act of 1938, comes into effect. In a direct response to both the Panay-incident and the Anschluss, the US Navy is allowed a 20% increase in strength. 3 new fast battleships, their design being completed in late April, are ordered. These ships, named Iowa, New Jersey, and Missouri, come with 9 16-inch/50 cal guns, 20 5-inch/38 cal guns, 80 Bofors guns, and 49 Orelikons.
US production starts to jump the hurdles with the Bofors. It took 2,000 subcontractors and 12 Chrysler factories to make and assemble the parts. Not only that, both the Navy and Army wanted their hand on it. The Army was looking to see if these Bofors guns could serve as a replacement for the 37 mm M3 guns which were also used on the M2's. Chrysler engineers had tried to simplify the production process but hadn't had much luck in that department.
May 20th, 1938
With the Vinson Act passing, the IJN decides to accelerate its own naval plans. While Circle Three was still jugging along and the next major expansion was scheduled for 1940, but now the new Circle Four plan is due to come into effect by September of 1939.
June 25th, 1938. Fort Knox, Kentucky
The 4 former cavalrymen stood in front of their mechanical replacement. They'd been part of the 13th Cavalry Regiment, assigned to the 7th Cavalry Brigade. They were still part of that regiment, but these days the 13th Horse looked more like the 13th Tank. Adna Chaffee had been persistent in incorporating tanks into the brigade, and now the four volunteers had to train on the way of the future. The men got their bearings as they scanned their new positions. The commander also had to serve as the loader and the driver also had to care for two machine guns which he fired. When one of the crew asked why the tank had 5 machine guns, he got a one-word answer, "Doctrine." The crew would become intimately familiar with Army Doctrine as they trained on their new vehicle
August 19th, 1938. Manila, Philippines
Stevedores worked to unload the cargo from the ships which had docked the previous day. This time, the cargo was surplus Air Corps planes, mostly P-26's, B-18's, and Seversky P-35's, which had been hot stuff until it was replaced by the P-36. Men from the 31st Infantry Regiment who were on leave and watching joked about the Philippines being America's junkyard.
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Are the Iowas going to use the old SoDak's 16/50s or is the whole issue with the lightweight guns going to happen here?
They are using the old SoDak 16-inch guns for now. The 16/50s Mark 7 guns haven't been designed yet.
BuOrd obviously had a gun in mind for the small turret they presented to the General Board (which was supervising both BCR and BuOrd) but it hadn't gone into full-scale development to become the Mark 7. Is this confusion still present, and what impacts could it have on the overall design of the ship if BCR designs it for the larger turrets? The design theoretically conformed to the 45,000 ton limit in the escalator clause, but basically any increase in the size of the ship, especially in something as large as the barbettes, would push the design over the treaty limit. The Iowas only used eight boilers, so cutting power to save on weight and size isn't going to be simple.NavWeaps said:
As an aside, the 16"/45 Mark 6 guns were better battleship guns than any 16"/50 gun. They were 30 tons lighter than the Mark 2's and 10 tons lighter than the Mark 7's; when three-gun mounts weigh 5 times the weight of the guns in them, weight lost in the guns translates to a lot more saved because the turret and barbette armor plates can be smaller. As far as usability, the Mark 7 gun certainly had enormous armor-piercing capability beyond 40,000 yards, but hit probability at those ranges was significantly less than one percent. In a hypothetical duel with a Yamato, the higher muzzle velocity (+200 fps) of the Mark 7 would allow penetration of the Yamato's belts at up to 25,000 yards compared to about 20,000 yards for the shorter Mark 6 firing the same super-heavy AP. However, the slower muzzle velocity and higher arcs of the Mark 6 give it superior deck penetration at range; the Mark 6 would be able to defeat Yamato's deck armor at around 32,000 yards, around the end of a South Dakota's own deck immunity zone, compared to about 35,000 yards for an Iowa, which had somewhat lighter armor than the South Dakotas and would have had to be far outside its immunity zone to engage Yamato.
NavWeaps said:
^The mountings for the Iowa class were originally to have used the same gun as planned for the never-built South Dakota BB-49 class, the 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 2. In April of 1938, during a General Board review, BuOrd produced sketches for a standard turret using these guns and also showed a new, lightweight turret that would still use the 16"/50 Mark 2 guns. However, this lightweight turret was just a paper study, it was not a real design that BuOrd was actively studying. Not fully understanding this, the General Board selected the lightweight turret, but did not make this clear to the BuOrd representatives. As a result of this mistaken understanding, the ship designers of the Bureau of Construction and Repair (BuC&R) and BuOrd came away with different conclusions as to which turret would be used; the ship designers going with the lighter, smaller turret and BuOrd going with the heavier turret. This discrepancy was not found until November 1938, causing much consternation to all parties.
@Not James Stockdale Right, so ITTL, the roles are switched. The ship designers are going with the old guns and heavier turret, and BuOrd thinks that they're going with the lighter and smaller turret, but the discrepancy hasn't found yet ITTL either.
^The mountings for the Iowa class were originally to have used the same gun as planned for the never-built South Dakota BB-49 class, the 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 2. In April of 1938, during a General Board review, BuOrd produced sketches for a standard turret using these guns and also showed a new, lightweight turret that would still use the 16"/50 Mark 2 guns. However, this lightweight turret was just a paper study, it was not a real design that BuOrd was actively studying. Not fully understanding this, the General Board selected the lightweight turret, but did not make this clear to the BuOrd representatives. As a result of this mistaken understanding, the ship designers of the Bureau of Construction and Repair (BuC&R) and BuOrd came away with different conclusions as to which turret would be used; the ship designers going with the lighter, smaller turret and BuOrd going with the heavier turret. This discrepancy was not found until November 1938, causing much consternation to all parties.
@Not James Stockdale Right, so ITTL, the roles are switched. The ship designers are going with the old guns and heavier turret, and BuOrd thinks that they're going with the lighter and smaller turret, but the discrepancy hasn't found yet ITTL either.
If this is the case, the issue I wanted to bring up was the fact that the Iowas, in the form of a 33 kt battlecruiser with 9 x 16"/50 guns, would probably be several thousand tons over the treaty limit (45,000 tons standard) if they went with the heavier guns, larger turrets, and wider barbettes.
Yes but ITTL the treaty limits wouldn’t matter by this point since the First London Naval Treaty expires and there wasn’t a second one
Part 0015
October 1st, 1938
The German Reich marches into the Sudetenland, annexing it. This completely ruins and Czechoslovak defense plans as their main line of fortifications are in enemy hands.
November 8, 1938
The United States Midterm elections are held. The Democratic party had the economy to stand on, but they also had many disadvantages. The economy, while still fantastic compared to earlier standards, was beginning to plateau. The military had reached a level of sustainability and there was no need to continue opening new factories for them as the US wasn't in a state of war. Unemployment had fixed around 14% for the last few months. Roosevelt's Court-Packing Plan hadn't been welcomed with open arms. Not only that, Roosevelt had openly campaigned against the conservative members of his own party as they were against the New Deal. The Republicans picked up 47 House seats and 5 in the Senate.
December 12th, 1938. Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania
Snow blanketed the whole of the training camp. For Felix Valters, that meant finally getting some rest. Drilling with the Springfield had gone well today. He could now take it apart and put it back together with his eyes closed. He was also becoming something of a marksman with the rifle. He wouldn't put any snipers out of business, but he could hit at whatever he aimed at. A roaring wind outside was followed by even more snow falling.
The German Reich marches into the Sudetenland, annexing it. This completely ruins and Czechoslovak defense plans as their main line of fortifications are in enemy hands.
November 8, 1938
The United States Midterm elections are held. The Democratic party had the economy to stand on, but they also had many disadvantages. The economy, while still fantastic compared to earlier standards, was beginning to plateau. The military had reached a level of sustainability and there was no need to continue opening new factories for them as the US wasn't in a state of war. Unemployment had fixed around 14% for the last few months. Roosevelt's Court-Packing Plan hadn't been welcomed with open arms. Not only that, Roosevelt had openly campaigned against the conservative members of his own party as they were against the New Deal. The Republicans picked up 47 House seats and 5 in the Senate.
December 12th, 1938. Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania
Snow blanketed the whole of the training camp. For Felix Valters, that meant finally getting some rest. Drilling with the Springfield had gone well today. He could now take it apart and put it back together with his eyes closed. He was also becoming something of a marksman with the rifle. He wouldn't put any snipers out of business, but he could hit at whatever he aimed at. A roaring wind outside was followed by even more snow falling.
Part 0016
January 16, 1939
The keel of the USS Tambor, the first of a new class of submarine, is laid down by the Electric Boat Company in Groton, Connecticut.
February 11, 1939
An experimental version of the P-38 is flown from March Field in California to Mitchel Field in New York. The plane crashed short of the runway due to engine failure, but the pilot, Benjamin S. Kelsey, was uninjured.
March 16, 1939
Czechoslovakia is no more. German forces marched into the rump state yesterday and by today it has been finalized as a protectorate controlling Bohemia and Moravia. Slovakia declares itself as an independent nation and joins the Axis. Hungarian soldiers march into territory which had already been set aside for them.
April 7th, 1939
The US Army Air Corp places its largest order yet for 530 of the new P-40s which had already been tested for defects. The new plane is set to replace the P-36 as the Corps' primary fighter.
May 11, 1939
The battle of Khalkin Gol begins
August 10, 1939
The government contracts Rock Island Arsenal for 1,000 of the new M2 Medium tanks which had already been tested by the Army. The only difference between the old models and these is that the M2A1 came with a slightly stronger engine and with bullet deflector plates over the rear fenders. Otherwise, the 37mm main gun and 7 machine guns are left untouched. This combined with the continued production of the M2 light meant that the Arsenal needed to expand their lines. The Air Corp also places an order in at Bell for 60 new P-39D fighters.
September 1, 1939
The German Army invades Poland
End of Story 1
The keel of the USS Tambor, the first of a new class of submarine, is laid down by the Electric Boat Company in Groton, Connecticut.
February 11, 1939
An experimental version of the P-38 is flown from March Field in California to Mitchel Field in New York. The plane crashed short of the runway due to engine failure, but the pilot, Benjamin S. Kelsey, was uninjured.
March 16, 1939
Czechoslovakia is no more. German forces marched into the rump state yesterday and by today it has been finalized as a protectorate controlling Bohemia and Moravia. Slovakia declares itself as an independent nation and joins the Axis. Hungarian soldiers march into territory which had already been set aside for them.
April 7th, 1939
The US Army Air Corp places its largest order yet for 530 of the new P-40s which had already been tested for defects. The new plane is set to replace the P-36 as the Corps' primary fighter.
May 11, 1939
The battle of Khalkin Gol begins
August 10, 1939
The government contracts Rock Island Arsenal for 1,000 of the new M2 Medium tanks which had already been tested by the Army. The only difference between the old models and these is that the M2A1 came with a slightly stronger engine and with bullet deflector plates over the rear fenders. Otherwise, the 37mm main gun and 7 machine guns are left untouched. This combined with the continued production of the M2 light meant that the Arsenal needed to expand their lines. The Air Corp also places an order in at Bell for 60 new P-39D fighters.
September 1, 1939
The German Army invades Poland
End of Story 1
Welp if nothing else those M2s will very useful as training tanks and will help the US learn how to mass produce tanks earlier than otl
Driftless
Donor
Along with utility as trainers, if the M2A1 has a stronger engine, could they eventually be partially stripped down to serve as prime movers too?