A Matter of National Security

[jsb]

Yes, but the British didn't know that there were little to no U-boats in the Atlantic, the same way the Allies had no idea that the Graf Spee was in the Atlantic. Two DD's are more than enough to scare off a single U-boat, which is what they were expecting since HMS Courageous had been sunk by a U-boat back in September. And the two DD's would've turned around once they meet up with the heavy cruisers, but they never got there.
...
ITTL, the USA is in a much better place to be exporting war materials to the allies. The two U-boats were sent to beef up the Graf Spee since the Germans were expecting many more enemy freighters to be crossing the ocean. The Graf Spee deliberately slows down to let the U-boats keep up, but for the ambush, the U-boats snuck up first and the Graf Spee followed.

The U-37 bit was a bit of rule of cool. The Saguenay was already starting to sink when U-37 surfaced and any hits scored by the 105mm shells wouldn't have mattered in the bigger picture as the destroyer was already dead. Another salvo from the Graf Spee would've sunk the St. Laurent anyway. That wouldn't have bought the merchant ships anyway. But going through the process of picking up and turning the sailors in POWs arguably brought more time for the ships then fighting to death would've.

Yes, but it simply doesn't make much sense, the PB can find and kill any convoy that the combined force can by itself why bother wasting time for Uboats when they are very limited in number and needed elsewhere that surface raiders cant go?

The DDs historically would only be attached at each end where the highest risk of being found by Uboats, especially near UK coast...... The convoy is moving at 9-13 knots if HX1, a Uboat cant do more than 18Kn and would mostly have to be even slower due to fuel requirements ie 10kn economic cruise, catching a convoy is impossible without luck or other supporting (air/radio search) forces. out in the ocean.

Even a sinking DD is very dangerous for any Uboat a single 4.7" shell will kill it so it would never surface to attack one especially with convoy and other DDs nearby that could fire at it....
I dont think the battle makes sense and underestimated how hard it would be to deal with two DDs making smoke and hiding, the Uboats would add very little as they are kept down and can only move at trivial speed 4-7Kn with DDs and PBB doing 25-30+Kn... I would read about what convoy escorts did when trying to cover convoys scattering from surface raiders IRL and most of them where not two real DDs, ie corvettes & AMCs trying to stand and fight.

What's the original plan regarding the convoy, are we are talking HX 1 as from Canada with two DDs and meeting up with two CA/CLs for the crossing, but that would place it very far west in the Atlantic?

 

[HistoryBossMan]

Yes, but it simply doesn't make much sense, the PB can find and kill any convoy that the combined force can by itself why bother wasting time for Uboats when they are very limited in number and needed elsewhere that surface raiders cant go?

Experience from WW1. German surface raiders and U-boats wreaked havoc on Allied shipping early in the war, so to Berlin combining the two seemed like a good idea.

Even a sinking DD is very dangerous for any Uboat a single 4.7" shell will kill it so it would never surface to attack one especially with convoy and other DDs nearby that could fire at it....
I dont think the battle makes sense and underestimated how hard it would be to deal with two DDs making smoke and hiding, the Uboats would add very little as they are kept down and can only move at trivial speed 4-7Kn with DDs and PBB doing 25-30+Kn... I would read about what convoy escorts did when trying to cover convoys scattering from surface raiders IRL and most of them where not two real DDs, ie corvettes & AMCs trying to stand and fight.

U-37 didn't surface that close to the Saugney and the other merchant ships weren't armed. The DD's didn't have time to make smoke or hid the convoy because they'd been ambushed.

What's the original plan regarding the convoy, are we are talking HX 1 as from Canada with two DDs and meeting up with two CA/CLs for the crossing, but that would place it very far west in the Atlantic?

The plan was to eventually transfer over to the heavy cruisers because the German threat was deemed to get higher as they got closer to the UK. Two DD's were deemed as an acceptable escort since the only action expected was by a single overeager U-boat, not a pocket battleship with submarines trailing

 

[jsb]

Experience from WW1. German surface raiders and U-boats wreaked havoc on Allied shipping early in the war, so to Berlin combining the two seemed like a good idea.

Yes but combine in a strategic sense not tactical, you use them seperatly to support each other by pulling the RN and allies in separate directions.
Ie ,
- for surface raiders you need concentrate your escorts into groups that can win against a PBB and spread out your merchants so they dont all get killed by a single ships.
- for Uboats you spread out your escorts as much as possible as any single warship can win and concentrate your merchants to reduce the chance they run into the enemy.

. The DD's didn't have time to make smoke or hid the convoy because they'd been ambushed.

If they dont have time for smoke (1-2mins?) that means they are very close to start with, this must suggest low visibility and or night time, two DDs should be able to get off torpedoes and make life very interesting as the merchants would provide plenty of cover and distraction at that range?

 

[HistoryBossMan]

Yes but combine in a strategic sense not tactical, you use them seperatly to support each other by pulling the RN and allies in separate directions.
Ie ,
- for surface raiders you need concentrate your escorts into groups that can win against a PBB and spread out your merchants so they dont all get killed by a single ships.
- for Uboats you spread out your escorts as much as possible as any single warship can win and concentrate your merchants to reduce the chance they run into the enemy.

Yeah, but this is their first time working together, so mistakes would be made

If they dont have time for smoke (1-2mins?) that means they are very close to start with, this must suggest low visibility and or night time, two DDs should be able to get off torpedoes and make life very interesting as the merchants would provide plenty of cover and distraction at that range?

I contemplated having the St. Laurent shoot its torpedos, but for the future development of the story I decided not to.

 

[MarchingThroughGeorgia]

Good stuff so far

 

[fester]

Experience from WW1. German surface raiders and U-boats wreaked havoc on Allied shipping early in the war, so to Berlin combining the two seemed like a good idea.

It is a good idea for u-boats and raiders to operate in conjunction with each other but not in direct coordination with each other. Let's start with the first big challenge of coordination --- speed. A U-boat has a maximum surface speed of ~17 knots flat out on the surface and a sustained speed of 2-3 knots underwater. A cruiser is just jogging along if she is going 12-14 knots. A U-boat has a maximum detection range of maybe 15 miles in perfect visual conditions while a cruiser can see ships from 25+ miles away.

Now let's say that a combined hunting group finds a convoy. If the U-boat on the surface can see the convoy, the convoy can see the U-boat. The convoy is also scattering if there is a cruiser raider. The escorts can either sacrifice themselves against a big cruiser or get kills against the U-boats or force the U-boats down. All of these actions are intended to give the merchant ships time to scatter while filling the air with position reports and flaming datums. Now the U-boats are useless as they are out of torpedo range and can't fire their guns and the escorts are doing their job of screaming for assistance and minimizing the number of kills that the raider group can achieve. An unmolested cruiser that still has to chase down merchies going in a dozen directions will leave kills on the table and that assumes the escorts aren't making smoke, making torpedo runs, and peppering the upperworks of the cruiser with light gunfire and forcing the cruiser to take time and ammunition to kill the escorts.

If you want combined operations, the U-boats operate as a distant scouting line and/or garbage pickers and the cruiser breaks up convoys and forces scatters so the odds of any single U-boat seeing a ship at any time goes up significantly.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 4th, 1939. Helsinki, Finland

The US Navy's technical advisor walked down the gangway as activity bustled all around him. Finnish dockyard workers hurried in their task of unloading the six freighters that had docked earlier in the day. 105's, 155's, M2 Brownings, and most importantly a squadron's worth of F4F-2 WIldcats. Purchasing the planes had caused a great deal of excitement in both Grumman and the Navy as this was a chance for what was essentially their main fighter to see frontline combat. Relations with the Soviets were breaking down and everyone in the Finnish high-command expected eventual war. The advisor was also supposed to observe the planes in combat and create a detailed report on how the Wildcat performed in action.
Two uniformed men lead him out of the dockyard and to a waiting Mercedes where he was driven to meet with the men leading the Finnish Air Force.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 4th, 1939. The Falklands

The heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and HMS Cumberland steam out of port. Reports from the Americans and further sightings confirmed the suspicion that the Graf Spee was heading for South American waters. The Graf Spee had already managed to get one spectacular victory and the Allies were damned if they let it get another one. All five seaplanes are launched from the cruisers, serving as the lead scouting units for the force.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 6th, 1939. Outside of Kock, Poland

The remaining Polish defenders stood still as they were looted of all their belongings. They had reason to stand with their heads held high as their operational group had held off a German Motorized Corps for three days, but they'd finally run out of food, fuel, and ammunition. The heroic resistance didn't mean anything now as their country had been invaded and occupied by two stronger countries who could now impose their will on the Poles. A trio of men deemed too unwieldy had to deal with rifle butts and beatings until the German commander let them off. Except for that, the rest of the surrendered men were dealt with in a relatively civilized manner before they were marched into captivity.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 8th, 1939. Mid Atlantic

The combined Anglo-French task force continued to advance southwards, hoping to meet up with HMS Exeter and HMS Cumberland and trap the German battleship in a two-pronged attack. This task force was overwhelming with HMS Ark Royal accompanied by Dunkerque, Strasbourg, HMS Renown, HMS York, and 7 A-class destroyers. Ark Royal sent up a constant flow of aircraft to serve as recon units. A Swordfish flew over a freighter flying the Argentine flag, but past that the seas seemed empty of ships at the moment

October 11th, 1939

Franklin Delano Roosevelt receives the Einstein-Szilard letter.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 12th, 1939. North Atlantic

HMS Warspite was on the prowl. Four days ago, the German pocket battleship Deutschland had tried to seize an American freighter, SS City of Flint, as it had been carrying what they dubbed contraband. The ship sent off a distress signal and the Americans patrolling the Neutrality zone found and cornered the ships. City of Flint was freed and the prize crew sent back to the German ship. This had soured relations between the two countries and the Americans had informed the British and Canadians of its location. Logically, an incident like this would send the ship running back home and that was what the British were banking on.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Losing a ship named Germany would be rather devastating to German morale which why Hitler ordered her renamed after the loss of Graf Spee in otl

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 12th. 1700 South Atlantic

The freighter had managed to get off a distress signal before it had been intercepted and sunk.

The signal had reached the task force sent to sink the Graf Spee. The three battleships and the heavy cruiser plowed forward at full speed while Swordfish and Skuas roared off the flight deck of the Ark Royal. 20 miles to the south, the Germans were still blissfully unaware of the danger they were in. They were busy transferring supplies from Altmark over to Graf Spee in an effort to both resupply the battleship and to make room for the new POWs. The Altmark was getting full and eventually would have to make a run for home to drop off the prisoners and get new supplies. When that happened, the Graf Spee needed to be ready for a period of unsupported hunting.

The Graf Spee came equipped with four units of Seetakt radar and now that radar was detecting many somethings coming in from the north. Klaxons hooted the call to battle stations as men hurried to and fro to get back to their original ships. Altmark was given the order to escape southwards and hopefully end up in a Brazilian port. Graf Spee began to tun to present her full broadside while the Altmark began to move.

The old ship radar system could detect a light cruiser 8km away with an accuracy of 50 meters. The Seetakt was an improvement of the original and these ships seemed to be a lot bigger than light cruisers. The gun turrets raised and the ship rocked backwards as a full broadside was given. The enemy ships were surprised as seawater was gouged out of the ocean by shell bursts. Two 11-inch shells hit but failed to penetrate Dunkerque's forward quadruple battery. A 5.9-inch shell killed the gun and crew of a 4-inch AA gun on the York. Renown took an 11-inch shell to the bow. Dunkerque and Strasbourg started to return fire. Both ships had two forward-facing quadruple turrets, so 16 13-inch shells closed the gap as they roared towards Graf Spee. Shells went long and short but one exploded near where the stern met the water and then another went through a 5.9- inch gun turret and lit off the ammunition. A roaring fire started on the deck while the ship started to list as a floodgate of water had been opened by the stern.

Screaming men that had caught fire ran off the ship and into the Atlantic in a desperate attempt to douse themselves off. Unlucky men simply collapsed on the deck as their bodies were burned to a crisp. The smell of burning flesh filled the nostrils of the remaining German sailors as they started to abandon ship. Feeling that he'd failed in his mission, Captain Langsdorff went down with his ship, his final command was to send encrypted messages to U-27 and U-37 imploring them to get back to Germany.

The planes that been launched from the carrier now flew overhead over the Germans bobbing on boats, informing the Britsh and French of their locations. Throughout the rest of the day, the survivors were lifted out of the South Atlantic and boarded the ships as prisoners.

 

[fester]

October 12th. 1700 South Atlantic

The freighter had managed to get off a distress signal before it had been intercepted and sunk.

The signal had reached the task force sent to sink the Graf Spee. The three battleships and the heavy cruiser plowed forward at full speed while Swordfish and Skuas roared off the flight deck of the Ark Royal. 20 miles to the south, the Germans were still blissfully unaware of the danger they were in. They were busy transferring supplies from Altmark over to Graf Spee in an effort to both resupply the battleship and to make room for the new POWs. The Altmark was getting full and eventually would have to make a run for home to drop off the prisoners and get new supplies. When that happened, the Graf Spee needed to be ready for a period of unsupported hunting.

The Graf Spee came equipped with four units of Seetakt radar and now that radar was detecting many somethings coming in from the north. Klaxons hooted the call to battle stations as men hurried to and fro to get back to their original ships. Altmark was given the order to escape southwards and hopefully end up in a Brazilian port. Graf Spee began to tun to present her full broadside while the Altmark began to move.

This entire engagement has me scratching my head for multiple reasons.

There is sufficient light for Ark Royal to at least launch observation and spotting aircraft. Most likely there is more than sufficient light for the carrier to launch a full torpedo bomber strike. The RN method of winning a fight is to make it as unfair as possible and a torpedoed panzershiffe that is already lamed before the surface units arrive is a very unfair fight that the RN wants to fight.

Secondly, and again this ties back to Ark Royal, the three battlecruisers all have bigger guns and longer range than the Graf Spee. All three ships also have a far more reliable source of resupply than Graf Spee. They can afford to stay at long range and walk heavy shell ladders observed by orbiting aircraft into and through the big heavy cruiser. The hunting group can afford to take a lot of low probability of a hit shots as their magazines are way deeper. And given the disparity in armor and gun power, one or two hits from either D&S or Renown will cripple Graf Spee while the converse is not guaranteed to be true. The hunting group should be able to take the first shots and are far more likely to land the first hit as they can put a lot more shells in the air per minute and they should have the advantage of aircraft observing and correcting their fire. Graf Spee's shooting is too damn good if the Allies can fight the surface action that they want to fight.

York has no good reason to get close to Graf Spee unless she is needed to administer the final, killing blow or chase down Altmarck or pick up survivors.

Now those are my tactical WTFS. Backing up to a strategic WTF.

The biggest problem from the RN POV with raiders is finding the bastard. Killing the bastard is a second order problem.

Finding the bastard with surface units means placing ships with a fairly limited good weather search radius in likely shipping lanes and sweeping. If there are multiple units, they can sweep at slightly less then 2x visual detection range between each ship. Once a suspected raider is found, then it can be mobbed. A light cruiser that can give a solid, validated position report before dying is almost as valuable as HMS Hood doing the same thing. Other units can either immediately swarm the raider and get at least a mission kill OR the future search box for heavy units is extremely small.

Carriers make the search radius significantly larger and makes the find the damn ship problem significantly simpler.

Both French battle cruisers and HMS Renown are more than sufficienct, individually to kill Graf Spee. These three ships are all faster, more heavily armed and more than adequately armored for this mission. Keeping those ships together along with Ark Royal and York means that the search radius of these five ships is limited to that of the Ark Royal instead of Ark Royal + 4 big surface ships with a 20-30 mile search diameter. The current striking group has 4x the kill capacity and probably only half the search capacity compared to an optimal deployment of Ark Royal with York as a bodyguard, and three battle cruisers operating independently.

IN OTL, the big heavy ships were split up to increase the search capacity instead of concentrated for overkill reasons. I have a hard time seeing why the RN and MN would change that logic in this time line.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

There is sufficient light for Ark Royal to at least launch observation and spotting aircraft. Most likely there is more than sufficient light for the carrier to launch a full torpedo bomber strike. The RN method of winning a fight is to make it as unfair as possible and a torpedoed panzershiffe that is already lamed before the surface units arrive is a very unfair fight that the RN wants to fight.

Yeah, that's why the Ark Royal launched the Swordfish and Skuas, but the battleships simply got engaged first, and then the French salvo took out Graf Spee

Secondly, and again this ties back to Ark Royal, the three battlecruisers all have bigger guns and longer range than the Graf Spee. All three ships also have a far more reliable source of resupply than Graf Spee. They can afford to stay at long range and walk heavy shell ladders observed by orbiting aircraft into and through the big heavy cruiser. The hunting group can afford to take a lot of low probability of a hit shots as their magazines are way deeper. And given the disparity in armor and gun power, one or two hits from either D&S or Renown will cripple Graf Spee while the converse is not guaranteed to be true. The hunting group should be able to take the first shots and are far more likely to land the first hit as they can put a lot more shells in the air per minute and they should have the advantage of aircraft observing and correcting their fire. Graf Spee's shooting is too damn good if the Allies can fight the surface action that they want to fight.

The ships rushed to engage because they'd finally caught the Graf Spee and this was a sort of revenge for the convoy sinking and the fall of Poland. They were confident in their abilities and knew that they outnumbered Graf Spee 4 to 1. The only reason that Graf Spee got off the first hit was because of the radar that had been installed on the ship which caught the Allied ships coming.

York has no good reason to get close to Graf Spee unless she is needed to administer the final, killing blow or chase down Altmarck or pick up survivors.

York simply followed along with the other 3 capital ships. They had no intention of sparing with Graf Spee and just got caught in the crossfire of Spee's assault

The biggest problem from the RN POV with raiders is finding the bastard. Killing the bastard is a second order problem.

The difference ITTL is that the Allies knew where Graf Spee was. The series of sinkings and reports put the Allies on the trail and chased the Graf Spee into the South Atlantic. That combined with the freighter's SOS message confirmed the location of the Graf Spee and so the Allies rushed to end the chase and sink Graf Spee

 

[fester]

Yeah, that's why the Ark Royal launched the Swordfish and Skuas, but the battleships simply got engaged first, and then the French salvo took out Graf Spee


The ships rushed to engage because they'd finally caught the Graf Spee and this was a sort of revenge for the convoy sinking and the fall of Poland. They were confident in their abilities and knew that they outnumbered Graf Spee 4 to 1. The only reason that Graf Spee got off the first hit was because of the radar that had been installed on the ship which caught the Allied ships coming.


York simply followed along with the other 3 capital ships. They had no intention of sparing with Graf Spee and just got caught in the crossfire of Spee's assault


The difference ITTL is that the Allies knew where Graf Spee was. The series of sinkings and reports put the Allies on the trail and chased the Graf Spee into the South Atlantic. That combined with the freighter's SOS message confirmed the location of the Graf Spee and so the Allies rushed to end the chase and sink Graf Spee

The decision train has many long service professionals in charge of strategic level assets eating multiple servings of lead chips and asking for more at multiple time points.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

The decision train has many long service professionals in charge of strategic level assets eating multiple servings of lead chips and asking for more at multiple time points.

Maybe, but many things OTL in WW2 also seems to be the product of professionals eating lead. Anyways I hope this feedback causes me to become better at writing naval engagements in future updates.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 12th, 1939. 1900 South Atlantic

The drenched sailor was pulled out of the water and into one of the British boats. Being filled, the boat turned back to Exter. Having refused to cooperate, Altmark had been sunk in a short engagement, with the only damage on the British side being a gouge on Cumberland's 'A' turret where a 5.9-inch shell had hit but not penetrated. There was a strong chance that POWs along with Germans had been killed in the bombardment, but the British were hoping to make that up by rescuing the survivors.

After bagging almost 500 men, the two cruisers moved to head to Recife, where the former POWs would be dropped off and repatriated, and the Germans would become POWs and probably be taken to the Caribbean territories.

 

[HistoryBossMan]

October 13th, 1939. North Atlantic

Deutschland plowed through the churning waters with one objective: Get back to the Reich. Berlin could stomach the loss of the Graf Spee, but losing a ship named after Germany was a bridge too far. They were under strict orders to not engage anybody and use their speed to hightail to Norwegian waters where they could finally get a sigh of relief. Lookouts had been rotated regularly since the humiliating retreat after they had been intercepted by the American Navy. Those lookouts hadn't seen much, but the fear of ambush was always there.

One of the men spotted smoke off in the distance, visibility being increased with the rising of the sun. The ship, probably British, must have also spotted them, but that didn't matter as the information was relayed and the speed was increased to 27 knots, almost full power, as the Deutschland continued to make its escape. The real wrench in the plans now was the fact that they had been spotted. Pretty soon the British back home would get word that the Deutschland trying to get back to Germany and then the ship would have to run the gauntlet of however many ships and planes the British would put against it.

 

[jsb]

Yeah, that's why the Ark Royal launched the Swordfish and Skuas, but the battleships simply got engaged first, and then the French salvo took out Graf Spee

The idea that Ark would not have aircraft up searching is questionable so she should out spot any surface ships by hours needed for a full strike, especially after reciving a radio alert....

The ships rushed to engage because they'd finally caught the Graf Spee and this was a sort of revenge for the convoy sinking and the fall of Poland. They were confident in their abilities and knew that they outnumbered Graf Spee 4 to 1. The only reason that Graf Spee got off the first hit was because of the radar that had been installed on the ship which caught the Allied ships coming.

She might fire first but the chance of hitting (unless its night) is almost 0 as she is massively out gunned and the real battleships will get more chances to hit..... 6 v 20 (6+8+8) and the larger shells will also fly far better at longer range......

The enemy ships were surprised as seawater was gouged out of the ocean by shell bursts. Two 11-inch shells hit but failed to penetrate Dunkerque's forward quadruple battery. A 5.9-inch shell killed the gun and crew of a 4-inch AA gun on the York. Renown took an 11-inch shell to the bow. Dunkerque and Strasbourg stopped to return fire. Both ships had two forward-facing quadruple turrets, so 16 13-inch shells closed the gap as they roared towards Graf Spee. Shells went long and short but one exploded near where the stern met the water and then another went through a 5.9- inch gun turret and lit off the ammunition.

- Why are the 11" guns doing splitting fire like this.......????
- How does a 5.9" range in a BB fight unless at suicidal close range??? and why is she firing at the CA with three better targets?
- Why are ships stopping to fire !!!!!
- the 13" will not miss if the 5.9" are hitting....
- 5.9" in a turret....?
- What are the 15" RN guns doing?