A Light Shines East: The World of a Christian Persia

Lao Tzu definitely. He's considered by a fair few to have been the closest any man came to God through his philosophy, without divine revelation . Of course by that they mean his original philosophy as written, not the many cults and immortality claimants that came later.
Confucious I have a harder time seeing, his works are very much wrapped up with the idea of Ancestor worship which despite people trying to conflate with the idea of Saints in the Church is very much a no no in Christianity.
Hmm… Maybe Laozi gets reinterpreted as a prophet while Confucius is simply seen as a wise philosopher. While Confucian ancestor worship would be hard to reconcile with Christianity, I could definitely see Chinese Christians adopting ideas of filial piety.
The Buddha is another one where, it my seem plausible on the surface but when you get into what he taught it is very much at odds with the teachings of Scripture and the Church Fathers. The idea of Reincarnation would be tossed out on its head from the very beginning for example.
IIRC neither the Buddha nor his early disciples wrote anything down, with the Buddhist canons being compiled later. So it could be argued ITTL that the Buddha’s original message was more in-line with the teachings of the Apostolic Church, but that his teachings were corrupted over time. I could also seen the Buddhist concept of the Maitreya being reinter pretend as referring to Jesus, similar to how Jesus has also been conflated with the Zoroastrian saoshyant ITTL.
There is a reason why, when the Gospel of John was translated to Chinese; John 1:1 was translated as "In the beginning was the Dao. And the Dao was with God. And the Dao was God."
Interesting!
 
Interlude: The World After Abu Yusuf
The year is 650 AD, and the Arab Empire founded by Abu Yusuf stretches from the Iberian Peninsula in the west to the Indus River in the east. The Arab kings have been enthusiastic patrons of Ebionite Christianity, and the religion has become the majority in Syria, Egypt, and Arabia and a significant plurality in Spain and North Africa. Other religions such as Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mandaeism, and Samaritanism are tolerated. In the Empire’s Persian and Mesopotamian provinces, Apostolic Christianity predominates and relations between Apostolics and Ebionites have been at times fraught. In the aftermath of Abu Yusuf’s conquest of Persia, numerous millenarian messianic cults emerged, none of which lasted very long but which have left a lasting influence in the desire for an Apostolic liberator who will throw off the Arab yoke and restore Persia to her former glory.

Beyond the Arab Empire’s borders, Apostolic Christianity has become the majority religion among the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, replacing their native pagan religion of Tengrism. To the south of them, India has prospered under the Gupta Empire[1]. Although originally a Hindu dynasty[2], the Guptas have become more receptive towards Buddhism. Indian Buddhism has become increasingly syncretized with Hindu traditions such as Vaishnavism and Shaivism. In particular, syncretic Buddhism-Vaishnavism[3] has become one of the largest religious traditions in India. Many of the old Hindu gods were reimagined in a Buddhist context. In the Dravidian kingdoms to the south, the Hindu philosophy of Vedanta(literally “end of the Vedas”, referring to the Upanishads) has emerged as the predominate religious tradition. As the name would suggest, the Vedanta philosophy is primarily concerned with the teachings of the Upanishads. Vedanta can be further subdivided into Dvaita and Advaita Vedanta, with Dvaita Vedanta arguing for a dualistic interpretation of the Upanishads and Advaita Vedanta arguing for a non-dual interpretation.

To the north, China has come to be ruled by the Tang Dynasty. Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism have emerged as the three dominant religious traditions coexisting and competing for influence in China. All three religions have also incorporated China’s traditional folk religion into their practice. Confucianism has begun to gain the support of the Tang imperial family, but Daoism and Buddhism nevertheless persist. On the opposite side of Eurasia, the Palmyrene Empire has fallen with the revolt of the prominent general Aleximenos, who has established the Aleximenid Empire based from Byzantion in its place. What was left of the decaying Roman Empire has finally fallen, with the Germanic Langobards taking the entire Italian peninsula in 648 AD[4]. Despite this, the Roman legacy endures throughout the Mediterranean.

In terms of religion, the Palmyrene and Aleximenid Empires have been enthusiastic patrons of Neoplatonism. The Germanic tribes, meanwhile, have instead taken to Stoicism. With the Roman and Gallic Empires having been heavily influenced by the Germanic tribes, Stoicism has ingrained itself there, and spread even further to the British Isles. In the east, the Neoplatonic religion of the Palmyrenes and Aleximenids has likewise spread amongst the Slavic tribes, known in Greek as “Sklavenoi” and in Latin as “Veneti.” Mystery cults dedicated to deities like Mithras, Isis, Magna Mater, Cybele, and Sol Invictus have become popular throughout the Mediterranean, and the worship of the traditional Greco-Roman pantheon has endured and adapted. The Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic pantheons have also been incorporated into Stoic and Platonist religion. The Arab and Aleximenid Empires have maintained the old rivalry that existed between the Sassanids and Palmyrenes, although the former Palmyrene client state of Armenia had been partitioned between the two. However, Abu Yusuf’s successors have proven to lack his skill. Time will tell if his empire will endure.



[1]The invasions of India by the White Huns are butterflied away, and the Guptas persist on

[2]Trying to distinguish between “Hinduism” and ”Buddhism” in India around this time period is difficult to do. Under the Guptas, the lines between Hinduism and Buddhism were blurred to the point that they were more or less the same religion. ”Hinduism” as we know it didn’t really exist yet either; the word “Hindu” was originally an ethnic rather than religious term applied to all Indians regardless of religion. What we think of as “Hinduism” today has its origins in the Bhakti or devotional movement, and in the Vedanta philosophy. With the Guptas lasting longer, its entirely possible that Indian Buddhism will as well.

[3]The Guptas seem to have been enthusiastic patrons of Vaishnavism IOTL.

[4]Ironically, (West)Rome lasted longer ITTL than OTL, albeit as a pathetic, hollowed shell of it’s former self
 
Will we see impact on saint Thomas Christian due to Proximity of Vedanta? Is same applicable on Bene Israel community due to indian Buddhism?
They’ll probably continue on as IOTL, until Christianity begins to expand into India. I could see the Saint Thomas Christians being to the Apostolic Church what the Eastern Catholic Churches are to the Catholic Church IOTL.
 
Interlude: World Religions After Abu Yusuf
The religion founded by an itinerant preacher from Nazareth has grown from an obscure cult on the edges of the Roman Empire to one of the world’s largest religions. One branch, the Apostolic Church, grew in the Parthian Empire amongst the poor and disaffected, before gaining the ears of Shapur the Great, the King of Kings. Sponsored by Shapur and strengthened by the Patriarchs Mani and Kartir, Christianity in its Apostolic form has grown to be the majority religion amongst the peoples of Persia and Mesopotamia, and among the Turkic tribes of Central Asia. The Apostolic Church teaches that Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God, Messiah prophecized in the Old Testament and the Saoshyant foretold by Zoroaster. The Apostolics take this to mean that within Christ, there were and are two connected but distinct natures; the human person of Jesus of Nazareth, the other being God the Son. The Apostolic Church conceives of God as a Trinity, and believes that God incarnated Himself as Jesus.

In addition to the Apostolic Church, another branch of Christianity would form in the Ebionite Church. The key difference is that while the Apostolics view Jesus as being himself divine, the Ebionites instead believe that he was simply a righteous man who became a prophet and Messiah who was adopted as the Son of God. Because of their belief of Jesus as merely human, they reject certain Apostolic beliefs such as Jesus having been miraculously born of a virgin. Another key difference is that the Ebionites still follow the law of Moses and believe that it was precisely because of Jesus’ austere devotion to the law that he was chosen by God as the Messiah. The Ebionites do differ from the Jews in their interpretation of certain laws, however; for example, the Ebionites believe that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross rendered the traditional sacrifices performed by Jews at the temple obsolete. Another unique doctrine of the Ebionites is the strict vegetarianism practiced by their clergy[1]. Another difference is in the hierarchy of the two churches. The Apostolics have a highly centralized hierarchy with the Patriarch of Ctesiphon on top, followed by bishops, priests, and monks. The Ebionites instead have a highly decentralized clergy. To the Ebionites, priests and bishops are meant to be experts on the law(with a council of bishops serving as the foremost experts on the law) while monks are typically wandering ascetics.

Judaism can trace its origins centuries back. Originally, the Jews were one of many Canaanite tribes. They were henotheistic, worshipping the storm and war god Yahweh was their patron god the same way that other Canaanite tribes might view Ba’al or Chemosh as their patron gods. However, as the religion developed, Yahweh came to be imagined not as one of many gods, but as the one true God. The central focus of Jewish worship had traditionally been the Temple at Jerusalem, until it was destroyed by the Romans and the Jews were forced into exile. In the Kingdom of Axum, Judaism has gained state support. The ruling Solomonic dynasty claim descent from the Biblical king Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. The variety of Judaism practiced in Ethiopia, called Haymanot Judaism, has many unique characteristics that distinguish it from Rabbinical Judaism. For example, Haymanot Jews reject the authority of the Talmud. Haymanot Judaism has also spread northwards to Nubia after the Axumite conquest of the Kingdom of Meroe. Rabbinical Judaism, meanwhile, has its origins in the sect of Judaism known as the Pharisees that rose to prominence during the Second Temple period. In Rabbinical Judaism, halacha or Jewish law is interpreted not only through the Torah, but also through the Mishnah(a commentary on the halacha) and the Talmud(a commentary on the Mishnah). There are two Talmuds, the Palestinian Talmud compiled in the traditional Jewish homeland under the Palmyrene Empire, and the Babylonian Talmud compiled in Babylonia under the Sassanid Persian Empire. The Himyarite Kingdom in Yemen have adopted Rabbinical Judaism.

The Zoroastrian religion is likewise ancient. Originating with the prophet Zoroaster(also known as Zarathustra) who likely lived somewhere in eastern Iran sometime during the late Bronze Age, Zoroastrianism views the word as a conflict between the forces of goodness or asha, represented by the creator god Ahura Mazda, and evil or druj, represented by the evil spirit Ahriman. Zoroastrianism served as the state religion of the Achaemenid Persian Empire, but after the conquests of Alexander the Great it was largely displaced by a form of Greco-Babylonian polytheism, which was itself displaced by Apostolic Christianity. While Zoroastrianism has declined in Persia, it has found new life in Armenia, where it has become a core part of the Armenian identity. The Armenians latched on to the Zoroastrian religion as a symbol of resistance against Persian attempts to Christianized them. From Armenia, Zoroastrianism has spread to Georgia, and the religion has become just as much a core component of Georgia’s identity as it is for Armenia. Although it is theologically distinct from Christianity and Judaism in many key ways, it is often classified alongside them due to the strong influence that it has had on both religions.

To the west, a different definition of religion emerges. While in the east, religion is something that you are, to the peoples of Europe it is something that you do. It is also often times difficult to distinguish between religion and philosophy in this part of the world. Nevertheless, two main “religions” have taken hold on the European continent; Platonism and Stoicism. Platonism, founded by the philosophers Socrates, Plato(for whom it is named), and Aristotle, has been the state religion of the Palmyrene and Aleximenid Empires. Platonism can almost be classified as less of a religion and more of a philosophy, however, it nevertheless has many religious features and serves as a religion to the cultures that practice it. Platonism in its philosophical form emphasizes rule by a philosopher-king, an ideal to which all Platonist rulers strive to, and the distinguishment between imperfect forms which we see and perfect ideals which actually exist. Platonism in its religious form believes that everything that exists is an emanation of a primordial cosmic principle called the One, and that by following the teachings of the various Platonist philosophers, than one can return to the one. The Platonists believe in a cycle of reincarnation that one escapes from when they return to the One, similar to in Dharmic religions.

The Platonists are polytheistic, and believe in multiple classes of gods. These are; the One, the good, transcendent, and ineffable, the Hypercosmic Gods, who make essence, life, and the soul, the Demiurge, who created the world, and the Cosmic Gods who make being, nature and matter(the traditional Greco-Roman pantheon included in this category). In contrast to their usual portrayal in traditional Greco-Roman myths as amoral, petty, and with gratuitous rape, Platonists instead view the gods as omni-perfect beings. One of the main ways in which the gods are worshipped is through mystery cults in which the initiated gain secret knowledge during their rituals. Some of the most popular mystery cults are those of Mithras(identified with the Platonic Demiurge), Isis(identified as the wife of Mithras), Cybele(sometimes considered an emanation of Isis), and Sol Invictus of Helios(sometimes considered an emanation of Mithras). It is also common for local villages to have their own patron gods[2]. Plato and other philosophers have been elevated to the status of gods in Platonist theology, as have various secular rulers. The process of becoming a god in Platonism is called apotheosis. Another common Platonist practice is theurgy, or calling upon the gods. The epics of Homer are widely regarded by Platonists as divinely inspired.

The other major philosophy/religion that has taken hold in Europe is that of Stoicism. Stoicism was founded by the Ancient Greek philosopher Zeno of Citium and gained many devotees in the ancient world, notably the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius. However, Stoicism would be most enthusiastically adopted by the Germanic tribes that attacked the declining Roman Empire, who were attracted to its fatalistic nature. Stoicism is pantheistic, believing that God is the totality of the universe. The Stoics have a cyclical conception of history, believing that the universe is doomed to be destroyed and create again infinitely many times and that this has already happened infinitely many times. The universe itself is also cyclical and infinite. The Germanic tribes which have adopted Stoicism as their religion have incorporated their own gods into it. In the Germanic conception of the world, the gods were doomed to be defeated in the end of times, but the universe would be created anew, a concept which proved easily adapted to a Stoic worldview. The Germanic gods have syncretized with the Roman ones and adapted to the Stoic worldview. However, in Stoicism, even the gods themselves are subject to fate. At the core of Stoic philosophy is to avoid the four passions of distress, fear, lust, and delight by practicing virtue and logic. Unlike Platonists with Plato and Socrates, Stoics do not worship Zeno as having become a god, but merely view him as a wise sage.

To the east, the belief systems in China likewise straddle the line between religion and philosophy. The state religion of China’s ruling Tang Dynasty is Confucianism, founded by the philosopher Confucius. Confucianism focuses on several key concepts such as filial piety, or loyalty to your parents, ancestors, and the state, and governance in accordance with universal order, the so-called Mandate of Heaven. A key concept in Confucianism is that of Tian or heaven. Tian in Confucian thought is somewhat comparable to the One in Platonist thought. To Confucians, Tian is the ultimate source and origin of the universe which everything ultimately returns to. Similar to but distinct from Tian is Shangdi, the supreme governor of the universe to whom the annual Sacrifice to Heaven is made to. In addition to Tian and Shangdi, numerous other gods are worshipped. Ancestor worship also plays a role in Confucian religious practice. Confucius himself is sometimes considered to be a god, although he is nowhere on the same level as Shangdi or Tian.

Also originating in a China is Daoism, founded by the semi-mythological philosopher Laozi(whose name literally means “the Old Master). Unlike the heavily ritual-based religion of Confucianism, Daoism is instead focused on the Dao, or flow of the universe. Daoism is monistic and panentheistic, believing the Dao to be one reality, and viewing it as being both within and beyond the world, being imminent and transcendent. The Dao is formless and unknowable, and one would find it best to simply go along with the flow of nature. Also important to Daoism thought is the concept of Yin and Yang, opposite but interconnected forces that emanate the universe. The Yin and Yang are often represented in Daoist art by the tiger and the dragon. They are also frequently represented by the Taijitu[3], which is a common symbol of Daoism. Although it originated in China, Daoism has been adopted by the Turkic Uyghur Khaganate[4]. The association of Daoism with the Uyghur “barbarians” has led to it being persecuted by the Confucian Tang Dynasty alongside “Indian” Buddhism and “Persian” Christianity.

Further south, India has been developing its own religious and philosophical traditions. Northern India, under the rule of the Gupta Empire, has adopted two primary religious traditions; Buddhism and Vaishnavism. Buddhism was founded by the Indian prince Siddhartha Gautama, known to his followers as the Buddha. The Buddha taught that dukha or desire was the root of suffering, and that by following his teachings dukha could be overcome and nirvana or enlightenment could be achieved. The other major religious tradition embraced by the Guptas was Vaishnavism, or the worship of the god Vishnu. The two traditions have syncretized to the point that they are effectively indistinguishable. Like the division of Christianity into Apostolic and Ebionite or Judaism into Rabbinical and Haymanot, Buddhism can be divided into Mahayana or Tantric Buddhism, which predominates in Northern India and Tibet, and Buddhism, which predominates in Southeast Asia. Buddhist minorities also exist in China and the Uyghur Khaganate, although they are persecuted in both. Mahayana Buddhism was once influential in Central Asia, but it has since been displaced by Christianity.

Another major religious tradition to emerge from India is Vedanta, which has grown to become the majority in the Dravidian-speaking kingdoms of Southern India. The teachings of Vedanta are explained in the Upanishads, a series of philosophical texts containing dialogues between teacher and student. The Upanishads explain that every person has a self, or ātman, which is part of a larger reality called Brahman. Vedantins believe that by following dharma(a concept roughly translated as “duty”) one can achieve moksha, and the the ātman can return to Brahman. The ātman is also seen as the agent of its own actions, or karma, and can recieve reward or punishment as a result. Like Buddhists, Vedantins believe in samsara or reincarnation, and achieving moksha also means escaping from the cycle of reincarnation. Two main schools of Vedanta exist, Dvaita and Advaita. Dvaita or dual Vedanta believes that the ātman and Brahman are distinct from each other, with ātman being dependent on Brahman(identified with the god Vishnu). Advaita or nondual Vedanta believes that ātman and Brahman are identical and that we only perceive them to be different because of Maya or illusion.

Across the ocean, the Mesoamerican cultures have undergone a civilizational shift following the Maya collapse. A new worldview combining pantheism and dialectical monism is emerging among the Nahua peoples, who have replaced the Maya as the center of Mesoamerican civilization. In this worldview, all of reality emerges from a cosmic principle called Teotl. Everything is Teotl, even seeming opposites. Everything that exists, including even the gods, are aspects of Teotl. Teotl is ever-changing and fluid, and morality was seen as establishing balance within the ever-shifting Teotl. Despite this strong monistic streak, Teotl was also identified with duality. Like in the Dharmic and Hellenic religions, time was seen as cyclical, with the world having been created and destroyed many times before(our world specifically being the fifth). Another major religious tradition to emerge in Mesoamerican was the Cult of the Feathered Serpent. The Feathered Serpent had been worshipped in some form in Mesoamerica ever since the days the Olmecs, but his cult truly came into its own after the Maya collapse. In addition to his previous role as a god of the winds and waters, he was also the creator and sustainer of the universe, and the creator of humanity. He was associated with social mobility and his cult would become incredibly popular with the poor. He was understood to be a god of all peoples; the Nahua called him Quetzalcoatl, the K’iche Q’uq’umatz, the K’iche Kukulkan, but he remained the same nonetheless. He rejected human sacrifice, instead accepting only sacrifices of plants and animals, and personal bloodletting.

Further south in the Andes, the Quechua amautakuna(a term roughly translating as teachers or sages) taught an animistic worldview in which everything in the world was infused with qamaq, meaning “breath” or “life-force”. In this worldview, various opposing forces were jostling in position. An equilibrium called pacha was achieved through Ayni or reciprocity. These values were exemplified by the commandments ama suwa, ama llulla, ama quella; do not steal, do not lie, do not be lazy. Those who followed this moral code would live in the Sun’s warmth, while those who did not would be left in the cold. Ancestor worship also played a role in this religion. Back in the Old World, meanwhile, the Arab Empire founded by Abu Yusuf was in decline. His successors proved to lack his skill, and a combination of a lack of a clear system of succession and religious tensions between Ebionite and Apostolic Christians threatened to tear the empire apart.




[1]IOTL all Ebionites were theoretically supposed to be vegetarian, but ITTL, like with Hinduism, Buddhism, and Manichaeism IOTL, it becomes something simply limited to the clergy because meat is an integral part of many people’s diet and most people don’t want to give it up

[2]Similar to villages having their own patron saints IOTL

[3]The Yin-Yang symbol I’m sure most of you are familiar with

[4]IOTL, the Uyghurs became Manichaean, but Manichaeism doesn’t exist ITTL(with Mani having been a Christian and the Patriarch of Ctesiphon at the time of Shapur’s conversion). Since the eastern Turkic tribes were strongly influenced by China(what with it being the large, hegemonic empire in the region) and Confucianism doesn’t really adapt well to nomadic cultures, I figure Daoism makes sense for a religion that they could adopt.
 
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I’ve just gotten through reading this TL and I do very much like it, it works with a premise that I’m a big fan of but is rarely actually executed. On Buddhism and Hinduism in India at the time, to my knowledge there wasn’t really a distinction between “Mahayana” Buddhism of northern India and “Vajrayana” Buddhism of Tibet, but rather that Tibetan Buddhism itself was a form of Tantric Buddhism adopted from and popular in the Gangetic plane especially Bengal. So it might be more accurate to just refer to Tantric Buddhism as it was practiced in India and Tibet as opposed to the Theravada school in say SEA or Sri Lanka. This Tantric Indian Buddhism was also very closely associated with Saivism, but I’m actually unfamiliar with whether or not the Guptas favored Vaisnavism or Saivism so I can’t comment on that.
 
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I’ve just gotten through reading this TL and I do very much like it, it works with a premise that I’m a big fun of but is rarely actually executed. On Buddhism and Hinduism in India at the time, to my knowledge there wasn’t really a distinction between “Mahayana” Buddhism of northern India and “Vajrayana” Buddhism of Tibet, but rather that Tibetan Buddhism itself was a form of Tantric Buddhism adopted from and popular in the Gangetic plane especially Bengal. So it might be more accurate to just refer to Tantric Buddhism as it was practiced in India and Tibet as opposed to the Theravada school in say SEA or Sri Lanka.
Interesting, I didn’t know that! I’ll change it.
This Tantric Indian Buddhism was also very closely associated with Saivism, but I’m actually unfamiliar with weather or not the Guptas favored Vaisnavism or Saivism so I can’t comment on that.
The Guptas seem to have consistently favored Vaishnavism, although Shaivism was fairly popular with the masses. Once the Guptas fall, I could see Shaivism begin to replace Vaishnavism as the “default“ position(which happened IOTL).
 
The Fall
From “History of the Apostolic Church” by Afshin Khorrami

Ultimately, Abu Yusuf’s successors would lack his competence. He was succeeded upon his death by his younger son, Jabalah. However, Jabalah was hardly considered an ideal ruler by the Bedouin cavalry that made up the majority of the Arab Empire’s military; he was a pampered city-dweller who preferred to speak in Syriac, Coptic, or Persian over Arabic. Already viewed as a pathetic weakling by his army, Jabalah further offended them by refusing to pay them, and he was deposed just two years into his reign. Jabalah was replaced by his older half-brother, Abdul-Yasu[1], who expanded his father’s empire to Betica in the west and the Indus in the east. A devout Ebionite, Abdul-Yasu introduced new laws requiring all Christians and Jews to follow the laws of Moses. These new laws were, unsurprisingly, extremely unpopular among Apostolic Christians.

Revolt broke out in Persia and Mesopotamia when a man from Khorasan by the name of Rostam claimed to be the second coming of Christ sent to drive the Antichrist(Abdul-Yasu) and his armies back to the deserts from whence they came. Rostam’s revolt was put down, and Abdul-Yasu responded with further persecution of the Apostolic Church. Abdul-Yasu declared his intention to eradicate the Apostolic Church from the face of the Earth, and Apostolics were forcibly converted to Ebionitism en masse, with those who resisted(quite a few) being put to death. This had the effect of offending the heavily-Apostolic Turkic mercenaries that had come to form a key component of the Arab Empire’s army. They would come to rally around a man by the name of Arslan, a mercenary in the Arab army and son of the Western Turkic Khagan.

Arslan’s forces would quickly gain control of Persia and Mesopotamia amid the environment of religious persecution. Soon, they began to march towards Damascus. Fearing the Apostolic onslaught, Abdul-Yasu fled the city to Egypt, then to Betica. While Arslan was able to take control of Syria and Egypt, he faced strong opposition from the local Ebionites. North Africa, meanwhile, was still in the process of converted, with a large and powerful Ebionite plurality[2] as well as a large but declining Stoic population left over from the period of Gothic rule mainly clustered around the cities. Both were United in opposition to their new Apostolic overlords. Meanwhile, Abdul-Yasu’s descendants continued to rule in Betica. The stage was set for a new period in the history of Christianity; the Wars of the Holy Sepulchre.



[1]Meaning “Servant of Jesus” in Arabic

[2]Slaves were declared free if they converted to Ebionite Christianity, giving people incentive to convert
 
Dang, I figured the Arab Empire would last at least a century instead of imploding in the space of a handful of generations. It's honestly giving Alexander's empire a run for it's money in time spent before imploding.
 
Dang, I figured the Arab Empire would last at least a century instead of imploding in the space of a handful of generations. It's honestly giving Alexander's empire a run for it's money in time spent before imploding.
Well if they keep imploding eventually the Empire becomes immortal?
Its the chinese way
 
Dang, I figured the Arab Empire would last at least a century instead of imploding in the space of a handful of generations. It's honestly giving Alexander's empire a run for it's money in time spent before imploding.
The Arab Empire simply had too much against it. No clear system of succession, sectarian tensions, their largest and most populous province views them as heretical barbarian invaders, no formal military structure, overextension, etc. They were never going to last.
Well if they keep imploding eventually the Empire becomes immortal?
Its the chinese way
Haha, true. Although not to spoil too much but China itself might not stay unified ITTL…
 
The Arab Empire simply had too much against it. No clear system of succession, sectarian tensions, their largest and most populous province views them as heretical barbarian invaders, no formal military structure, overextension, etc. They were never going to last.
I would have at least expected them to last as long as the Mongol Empire did.
 
I would have at least expected them to last as long as the Mongol Empire did.
Fair, although the Mongols didn’t really last very long as a United empire either. The Arab Empire lasted almost a hundred years, although I guess I may have been a little vague with the time.
 
As is tradition!
South Park Wedding GIF - South Park Wedding Tradition ...
 
The Empire Once United
From “Rise and Fall of the Tang Dynasty” by Xu Jiang

Going further into the Tang era, conflict would increase with the nomadic peoples that surrounded their empire. To the southwest, the Tibetan Empire arose to challenge Tang authority, becoming the primary adversaries of the Tang. To the northwest, the Uyghur Khaganate would likewise rise to challenge them, as would the Jurchen tribes directly to the north of them. While the Tibetans were Buddhist and primarily culturally influenced by India, the Uyghurs and Jurchens would be strongly influenced by Chinese culture. In particular, the religion of Daoism would grow especially prominent among them, in contrast to the Confucian Tang. However, many of the Turkic and Jurchen khanates still held the Tang Emperor in high regard.

The Tang would rely on Turkic jiedushi[1] to control their western provinces. One such jiedushi was a man named An Lushan, would rebel against the Tang Emperor Xuanzong, declaring the new Yan Dynasty. An Lushan’s rebellion, one of the bloodiest in history, was ultimately defeated. However, the Tang Dynasty would find itself significantly weakened. The Tibetan Empire reclaimed their Central Asian territories from the Tang, and the Uyghur Khaganate(who allied with the Tang against An Lushan) was able to extend its sphere of influence into China. The Tang would go into steep decline, until they eventually fell. The following Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period would end with the rise of the Song Dynasty in the south and the Khaganate Liao Dynasty in the north. It is here that East Asia as we know it begins to emerge. The Song were Confucians with a more-or less direct line to the great dynasties of old, while the Liao were Daoists[2] with strong influence from both the old dynastic cultures and from Central Asia. The Liao would themselves be conquered by the Jurchens, who established the Later Wei Dynasty and conquered all the way to the Yangtze River. This division of continental East Asia between a Daoist north and Confucian south remains to this day.






[1]A term roughly translating as “regional commander”

[2]The Liao were Buddhists IOTL, but Buddhism is less influential in East Asia ITTL, with Daoism largely taking its place
 
An Lushan
Uuuuuugh

I respect the creative choice but just seeing this man's name make me nauseous, I was really hoping his rise would be butterflied away ITTL because of how convoluted it was, he's like the asian Cortéz!

Fascinating to see the jurchens of all people founding the Wei Dynasty, imagining a manchu Mulan is way too funny to me plus they're taoist too! And seeing China remain divided between north & south with the south being a continuation of the Song is way too cool

Wonder what will happen to Uyghur Khanate and Tibetan Empire, if they too have a successor state that makes into the modern day it would make the present state of Asia incredibly unique, and thats already with the divided China remaining that way

Rip Tang 💀 you shall remain alive in our hearts as the chinese Roman Empire counterpart

Great chapter!
 
Uuuuuugh

I respect the creative choice but just seeing this man's name make me nauseous, I was really hoping his rise would be butterflied away ITTL because of how convoluted it was, he's like the asian Cortéz!
Sorry if the inclusion of An Lushan made you nauseous. I admit that this period of Chinese history isn’t really my strong suit, so I kind of just included him. All that really matters that a Central Asia jiedushi rebels against the Tang, so I could easily have someone other than An Lushan fill that role.
Fascinating to see the jurchens of all people founding the Wei Dynasty, imagining a manchu Mulan is way too funny to me plus they're taoist too! And seeing China remain divided between north & south with the south being a continuation of the Song is way too cool
This isn’t the same Wei that Mulan came from(that already happened), they just have the same name like how there were two Jin Dynasties IOTL or six Xia Dynasties(well, actually five since the first Xia was entirely mythical, but to the Chinese it was real). That said, this Wei sees itself as a sort of successor to the previous Wei not only because of the name but also because they are both northern-based dynasties that failed to control the south and had Central Asian influences. If it makes more since to come up with an entirely new dynastic name, I will, but I’m not all that familiar with the customs surrounding Chinese dynasty names.
Wonder what will happen to Uyghur Khanate and Tibetan Empire, if they too have a successor state that makes into the modern day it would make the present state of Asia incredibly unique, and thats already with the divided China remaining that way

Rip Tang 💀 you shall remain alive in our hearts as the chinese Roman Empire counterpart

Great chapter!

The Uyghurs and Tibetans will survive in some form, although I’m not quite sure what. As for China falling like Rome, I’m honestly surprised that didn’t happen IOTL, since China’s basically a unique cultural sphere in its own right and “Chinese” isn’t so much a language as a whole language family. China was divided IOTL between the Song in the south and Jurchen Jin in the north around this time, so there’s precedent to this. ITTL, they just never reunify.
 
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