A Light Shines East: The World of a Christian Persia

[Merovingian]

So, two questions, or at least things I want bring up. One, when talking about Mithraic Europe, the in-universe writer also talks about Germanic and Slavic people. Is this meant to state that these groups began following the concepts of Mithraism, Platonism, and Stoicism outlined alongside their own folk religions? It wasn't very clear. As a side note, the in-universe writer mentions the term, "Mithraic Europe," but if I remember comments you made in this thread correctly, the idea of Europe as a distinct continent wouldn't become a thing ITTL.

To be honest, I’ve gone through various ideas about how Europe should turn out, and as a result there’s a lot of conflicting information about Europe on this thread. The Germanic and Slavic(and Celtic) peoples have adopted Mithraism, Platonism, and Stoicism from the post-Roman states while continuing to worship their old pantheons. The concept of ”Mithraic Europe” is actually a Christian one, contrasted with “Christian Europe”, which consists of Spain, Russia, and a few others. Some sort of civilizational identity will probably develop among the Mithraic peoples, but nothing like the unified Western identity among OTL Europeans(they recognize that they have more in common with each other than with anyone else, but the post-Roman, Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic sub-civilizations have slightly stronger identities).

The other thing I wanted to mention, not really as a question, but just something that surprised me, was the relatively limited conquests of Abu Yusuf. You've mentioned Christian Iberia as well as that his empire would fall shortly after he did, so I expected him to at least conquer North Africa. Will it be like the Mongols where they continue expanding after the founder's death?

Abu Yusuf’s successors will continue to expand his empire into North Africa and Iberia, but after a few generations it will start to fall apart.

Glad seeing another update, so the Patriarch became the king maker basically, hopefully a future Shah will be able to reign in the power of the church as to better control the state and fight off the Heretics.

Right now, Persia is under Ebionite Arab rule, and so the Apostolic Church will alternate between being persecuted and being tolerated but without institutional support. Once an Apostolic dynasty takes power again in Persia, the Church will likely regain a significant amount of power, but will have been weakened by Ebionite rule and the establishment of a secular bureaucracy.

Btw, does India have a big Christian presence? I can imagine with an Alt Caliphate, trade between Persia and India(especially given Persia controlled a direct path towards India) as well as naval presence would allow it to spread like Islam did.

Christianity will likely expand into India. A lot of this depends on what happens with the Turks, who were largely responsible for the Islamic conquest of India IOTL. I was originally going to have the Göktürks convert to Apostolic Christianity, but they seem to have IOTL been culturally more influenced by India than by Persia, with Buddhism being the main religion. However, Christianity is far more evangelizing than Zoroastrianism ever was and Nestorianism was fairly popular among the Turks IOTL. But then again, Buddhism is far easier for a Tengrist to swallow. The concept of the Eucharist would also be difficult to translate into Turkic culture(bread and fermented mare’s milk?), and conversion to Apostolic Christianity would mean accepting the authority of the Patriarch of Ctesiphon and by extension the Shahanshah, a frequent enemy of the Turkic Khaganate. So we might see the Turks bringing a Tengrified version of Buddhism to India, while Christianity spreads through trade with the Persians. Once a group of Turks inevitable conquers Persia, they’ll convert to Christianity, however.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

[10]The Apostolic Church acknowledges the existence of saints, but doesn’t believe that they can be prayed to and regards the concept of patron saints as polytheistic. Sainthood in the Apostolic Church is simply a recognition of either being one of Jesus’ Apostoles, being a former Patriarch of Ctesiphon(all Patriarchs are canonized upon death), having some sort of miracle attributed to you, or(in Ardashir’s case) extraordinary deeds in service of your faith. All Apostolic saints are given the Aramaic honorific “Mar”, meaning “lord”.

So the Apostolic Church's answer to the Nicene Creed doesn't have a counterpart to the "communion of saints".

[13]Arabic for “Realm of Jesus”, a common nickname for Abu Yusuf’s empire

An analogue to the concept of Christendom in OTL European Christianity. Did Sassanid Persia have a counterpart to the concept of translatio imperii, or is that not a thing because they considered themselves a continuation of Cyrus' empire rather than the successor to the Roman Empire?

 

[Whiteshore]

So we might see the Turks bringing a Tengrified version of Buddhism to India

Guess the question is whether they’d be Theravada, Mahayana, or Vajrayana.

 

[Merovingian]

An analogue to the concept of Christendom in OTL European Christianity. Did Sassanid Persia have a counterpart to the concept of translatio imperii, or is that not a thing because they considered themselves a continuation of Cyrus' empire rather than the successor to the Roman Empire?

The concept of translatio imperii likely will not exist ITTL, but certain empires will view themselves as successors to previous ones(like the Sassanids and Achaemenids, as you mention).

Guess the question is whether they’d be Theravada, Mahayana, or Vajrayana.

The Mahayana seem to have been the main form of Buddhism in Central Asia IOTL.

 

[Tertius711]

So the Arabs did conquer Persia. That’s going to be interesting. There is a serious divergence between their sects of Christianity

 

[souvikkundu25140017]

Will Persian theocracy now overthrown due rule of Arabian dynesty? Thus temporal power now imposed over chruch.

I thought polytheistic Palmyrene Empire will consist of buddhism.

 

[Tertius711]

Will Persian theocracy now overthrown due rule of Arabian dynesty? Thus temporal power now imposed over chruch.

I think so yes. Certainly the Arabs will not tolerate the over mighty Apostolic Church's power being considered heretics by it.

I thought polytheistic Palmyrene Empire will consist of buddhism.

Buddhism has little way to make inroads into the pagan Palmyrene empire due to the distance from India.

 

[Merovingian]

Will Persian theocracy now overthrown due rule of Arabian dynesty? Thus temporal power now imposed over chruch.

What @Tertius711 said. They simply won’t allow an institution which they consider to be heretical to have that much power.

I thought polytheistic Palmyrene Empire will consist of buddhism.

Buddhism has little way to make inroads into the pagan Palmyrene empire due to the distance from India.

Buddhism wasn’t really a thing this far west. There were some Greek Buddhists, and Indian Buddhist art was heavily influenced by Greek art, but there wouldn’t have been a large enough Buddhist population in Third Century Rome to be anything of influence. The Turkic peoples of Central Asia are Buddhist, albeit syncretized with Tengrism and with a large Christian minority.

 

[Whiteshore]

How big would the Arab Empire be in the East? Would they be conquering any part of India or Central Asia like the Umayyad Caliphate IOTL?

 

[Merovingian]

How big would the Arab Empire be in the East? Would they be conquering any part of India or Central Asia like the Umayyad Caliphate IOTL?

The Arab Empire will probably expand at least somewhat into Central Asia and India, and there might even be something equivalent to the Battle of Talas, but if Abu Yusuf’s successors do expand eastward, they won’t leave as much of a legacy as they did in the west.

 

[Tertius711]

I imagine the expansion into Asia will be at most as much as what happened OTL and with a much lesser legacy from the Arabs. As OTL with Islam, I expect that Christianity, Ebionite and Apostolic, will have a much greater legacy.

 

[Merovingian]

I imagine the expansion into Asia will be at most as much as what happened OTL and with a much lesser legacy from the Arabs. As OTL with Islam, I expect that Christianity, Ebionite and Apostolic, will have a much greater legacy.

This is likely what will happen.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

This is actually interesting in the sense that the Ebionites are not Muslims, even if their conquests take them on a similar path.

Assuming they also have the Eucharist there's gonna be no ban on consumption of alcohol. Consumption of pork might be okay in chiefly Apostolic locations, though the Ebionites might proscribe it like the Jews.

Also, a thought: OTL Islam has the hadiths, whose Christian counterpart would be Sacred tradition. Unless one of the major sects goes full sola scriptura (highly unlikely in a pre-printing press world) that's gonna be around.

 

[Merovingian]

This is actually interesting in the sense that the Ebionites are not Muslims, even if their conquests take them on a similar path.

Assuming they also have the Eucharist there's gonna be no ban on consumption of alcohol. Consumption of pork might be okay in chiefly Apostolic locations, though the Ebionites might proscribe it like the Jews.

The Ebionites prohibit pork but not alcohol. Their dietary laws are pretty similar to Jewish dietary laws.

Also, a thought: OTL Islam has the hadiths, whose Christian counterpart would be Sacred tradition. Unless one of the major sects goes full sola scriptura (highly unlikely in a pre-printing press world) that's gonna be around.

The Apostolic and Ebionite Churches each have their own sacred tradition. Something like sola scriptura is unlikely to develop ITTL.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

The Apostolic and Ebionite Churches each have their own sacred tradition. Something like sola scriptura is unlikely to develop ITTL.

I'm assuming then that we won't get anything that resembles OTL Protestantism down the line (though given how that's a millennium after where we are in the TL, you've probably not planned that far yet!).

 

[Merovingian]

From “History of Europe“ by Gwynedd Dowell

As the Palmyrene and Sassanid Empires fought in the east, in the west the Gallic Empire would thrive while what was left of the Roman Empire would undergo internal turmoil. The Praetorian Guard would be purged by the Emperor Marius the Geat shortly after having been installed by them in 580 AD of the Christian calendar, correctly believing that they had grown too powerful and would remove him the moment it was useful to them. However, by this point, a new power had emerged in Rome; the Visigothic tribes that now ruled significant parts of the Empire on behalf of the Emperor, including all of North Africa. Marius would placate them by making the King of the Visigoths Magister Militum[1]. Marius’ son and successor, Quintus Marianus, would prove to be far weaker than his father, and would designate more and more powers to the Magister Militum, that being King Amalric of the Visigoths. Amalric and his successors would become significantly Romanized, endearing them more to the Roman public, and would effectively turn the Roman Emperors into puppets.

The period of Gothic rule would end with the conquest of North Africa by the successors of Abu Yusuf, when Magister Militum Thorismund was deposed by the Roman Flavio Ursino[2] Meanwhile, to the west, the Hispanian Republic founded by Cnaeus the Mad had gradually stabilized into what was effectively a military dictatorship. When the Arab armies invaded Hispania, they brought with them their religion of Christianity. Thus the Iberian peninsula would thenceforth be divided in two, a small Hellene nation in the northwest called Hispania, and a larger Christian nation in the rest of the peninsula called Betica[3].

From “The Göktürks: The History of a People”

The fall of the Sassanid Empire was ironically the best thing that happened to Apostolic Christianity among the Turks. Before, Apostolics were viewed as agents of the Turks’ Persian enemy, but now they were seen as just another religion. Apostolic Christianity would come to replace the worship of Tengri as the predominant religion among the Göktürks. Aside from Apostolic Christianity, Mahayana Buddhism also established a noticeable plurality among the Turks, and Buddhist influences can be found in the Turkestani Church even today. When a culturally Turko-Persian army would invade and conquer large swathes of India centuries later, Buddhist and Hindu beliefs were reimagined in a Christian context[4]. The Turks would nevertheless become enthusiastic patrons of the Apostolic Church, spreading the religion northward and westward to Russia. The Turkic Khaganate comflicted with the Arab Empire just as much as they did with the Sassanids before them, and their newfound devotion to Apostolic Church gave them a justification to liberate their fellow Apostolics in Persia from the Ebionite yoke. With the increasing instability of the Arab Empire, it was now only a matter of time.



[1]”Master of soldiers”, or the top-level military command of the late Roman Empire

[2]Flavius Ursinus. By this point, the Latin language is effectively extinct, replaced with a Romance language, but still used in some formal settings.

[3]Derived from “Baetica.”

[4]Think of the coexistance between Islam and Hinduism in India IOTL

 

[Tertius711]

Did the Visigoth Kings Shogunate the Roman emperors?

 

[Merovingian]

Did the Visigoth Kings Shogunate the Roman emperors?

They did. By this point the Roman “Empire” has been reduced to just the Italian Peninsula, and it’s under constant attack from both the Arabs to the south and the Germanic tribes to the north.

 

[Aluma]

Ooh Christian Spain and Hellenic Portugal!

 

[Merovingian]

Ooh Christian Spain and Hellenic Portugal!

Most of *Portugal is under Christian rule, it’s the area around Galicia that’s Hellenic. Still roughly an accurate description of TTL’s Iberia, though. Christian-Hellenic relations on the peninsula will vary between peaceful coexistence and bitter hatred over different periods of time.