The Shogunate (and the samurai class) has to go. But I hope people like Ryoma gets to be in charge of a new government. Maybe some useful foreign ideas gets implemented.
偉大な恐ろしい戦争: A more bloody and impactful Boshin War
- Thread starter IntellectuallyHonestRhino
- Start date
That's the ironic thing about the war.They people who fought the Shogunate cried about too many changes,but ended up changing far more than most supporters of the revolt had hoped.
The thing is, whoever wins would have to reform. The old system has outlived its usefulness. Either they open up or end up similar to China.
That's one thing the Imperials realized later on. I mean, if they didn't, then the subsequent samurai rebellions would been bigger and bloodier than it was in OTL.
Exactly, the Imperials main thing was the Emperor and so they were able to give up their xenophobic and reactionary tendencies in service of their greater aim. This ability to compromise with reform and reformers is why they were better than the Shogunates.
The Shogun's Cabinet
Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu realized that if he was going to win the war, he would have to revamp his administration to fit the war situation. With the Imperial capture of Osaka, most of Japan west of Shiga was under de facto Imperial rule, with Shogunal loyalist remnants dormant in acting out their sympathies until their position would be more of use to Edo (the ishin-shishi was also assassinating suspected Shogunal allies). He may have earlier set up the Shinsengumi and started a propaganda campaign for his capture of Kyoto, but the dramatic defeat in Kyoto had changed the game already. For all intensive purposes, this was Edo versus Kyoto, Shogun vs Emperor.
The Shogunal Cabinet:
Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu:
"Shogun Yoshinobu was a pragmatist. He embraced traditionalism when useful, and the same for modernism. Historians generally agree that Yoshinobu was the more qualified statesman when compared to Meiji, but it mattered less since Meiji knew his limits." - The War that shook the Nation, Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian
"Under Yoshinobu, the position of Shogun transitioned from exalted leader to a combination of generalissimo and Prime Minister. He developed a cult of personality, yet was answerable like most western heads of state. However, unlike them, he did not fully agree to the notion of limited government, and the uncertainty of his thumb caused policy upsets." - Of Principles and Populism, by John Lukacs, Hungarian-American Historian and Conservative think-tank leader
President Katsu Kaishu:
"The title of President was based off America's President, but for the Shogunate it was more of a bureaucratic organizer. Shogun Yoshinobu had a vision, and President Katsu would carry it out in the Shogunate's government. Japanese historians generally mention his innovative personality." - Projection of American Power, by Noah Chomsky, social and political critic.
Secretary of the Treasury Kobayashi Torasaburō:
"An able economic mind, Secretary Kobayashi reformed the Shogunate's economy. His reforms in commerce and in education were especially noted. The Secretary of the Treasury for the Shogunate is in essence of combination of Secretary of the Treasury and Commerce. While the propaganda ministry had technical control of education, Kobayashi was much better at the job and inserted his policies for a reformed education system (but all the propaganda was Secretary Matsudaira's).
Secretary of War Matsudaira Katamori:
"Secretary Matudaira was well noted for his military courage and charisma. His greatest success was his ability to propagandize millions to the Shogunal cause, but his greatest weakness was that he saw himself more as a hero than a leader, and his arrogance stifled much progress. His men from Aizu province were the best soldiers for the Shogunate and perhaps for the whole war" - The War that shook the Nation, by Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian.
Secretary of Foreign Affairs Date Yoshikuni:
"A descendant of the prestigious Date family, Date Yoshinuki had much to live up to as Secreatry of Foreign Affairs. He was not the fighter that his ancestor Masamune was, but was a master of the realpolitik of international affairs. While hopeless at convincing other domains to join the Shogunal cause (a large weakness for the Shogunal cause, especially with the Tosa converting many daimyo and samurai), his shrewdness in foreign relations was essential for the Shogunal war effort. He certainly bested Ryoma and even Hisamitsu in the art of global diplomacy". - The War that shook the Nation, by Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian.
Foreign Military Advisor Jules Brunet:
"Sent by the French on a military mission to Edo, General Brunet soon gained the confidence and respect of Shogun Yoshinobu. Although not as commanding of a figure as General Codrington, he was successful in modernizing the Shogunate's army in both arms and tactics" - A Military History of France, by Joseph Joffre, Military Historian and Grand Marshall of the French Armed Forces.
With a professional cabinet and well-oiled bureaucracy, Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu was ready to wage war for as long as it took.
The Shogunal Cabinet:
Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu:
"Shogun Yoshinobu was a pragmatist. He embraced traditionalism when useful, and the same for modernism. Historians generally agree that Yoshinobu was the more qualified statesman when compared to Meiji, but it mattered less since Meiji knew his limits." - The War that shook the Nation, Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian
"Under Yoshinobu, the position of Shogun transitioned from exalted leader to a combination of generalissimo and Prime Minister. He developed a cult of personality, yet was answerable like most western heads of state. However, unlike them, he did not fully agree to the notion of limited government, and the uncertainty of his thumb caused policy upsets." - Of Principles and Populism, by John Lukacs, Hungarian-American Historian and Conservative think-tank leader
President Katsu Kaishu:
"The title of President was based off America's President, but for the Shogunate it was more of a bureaucratic organizer. Shogun Yoshinobu had a vision, and President Katsu would carry it out in the Shogunate's government. Japanese historians generally mention his innovative personality." - Projection of American Power, by Noah Chomsky, social and political critic.
Secretary of the Treasury Kobayashi Torasaburō:
"An able economic mind, Secretary Kobayashi reformed the Shogunate's economy. His reforms in commerce and in education were especially noted. The Secretary of the Treasury for the Shogunate is in essence of combination of Secretary of the Treasury and Commerce. While the propaganda ministry had technical control of education, Kobayashi was much better at the job and inserted his policies for a reformed education system (but all the propaganda was Secretary Matsudaira's).
Secretary of War Matsudaira Katamori:
"Secretary Matudaira was well noted for his military courage and charisma. His greatest success was his ability to propagandize millions to the Shogunal cause, but his greatest weakness was that he saw himself more as a hero than a leader, and his arrogance stifled much progress. His men from Aizu province were the best soldiers for the Shogunate and perhaps for the whole war" - The War that shook the Nation, by Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian.
Secretary of Foreign Affairs Date Yoshikuni:
"A descendant of the prestigious Date family, Date Yoshinuki had much to live up to as Secreatry of Foreign Affairs. He was not the fighter that his ancestor Masamune was, but was a master of the realpolitik of international affairs. While hopeless at convincing other domains to join the Shogunal cause (a large weakness for the Shogunal cause, especially with the Tosa converting many daimyo and samurai), his shrewdness in foreign relations was essential for the Shogunal war effort. He certainly bested Ryoma and even Hisamitsu in the art of global diplomacy". - The War that shook the Nation, by Shinzo Abe, Japanese Prime Minister and Historian.
Foreign Military Advisor Jules Brunet:
"Sent by the French on a military mission to Edo, General Brunet soon gained the confidence and respect of Shogun Yoshinobu. Although not as commanding of a figure as General Codrington, he was successful in modernizing the Shogunate's army in both arms and tactics" - A Military History of France, by Joseph Joffre, Military Historian and Grand Marshall of the French Armed Forces.
With a professional cabinet and well-oiled bureaucracy, Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu was ready to wage war for as long as it took.
Oh silly gaijin. Foreign ideas are for kids! (Maybe that's why those damn kids want to maintain the pacifist government and tolerate homosexuality grumble grumble. When will they learn and start praying at war crimi- I mean war hero shrines!)
East Asian politics has always been interesting
Because the Imperials are constricted by the Shogunate's navy and he thinks he can win. Honestly if he could of mobilized better earlier on (ITTL he does) he wouldn't have just given up. At this point the first phase has just ended. Also the slaughter of innocents in Osaka helps the Shogun's cause, and has him further believe he is the right one for Japan. And at this point him surrendering makes no sense. Isami has stationed troops at Shiga and Fukui provinces. If anything, the only thing that's going to surrender shortly is peaceful and quick reconciliation. War is the path.
And why the Imperials wouldn't surrender at this point is because they have the momentum. Takamori, Masujiro and Codrington make a fantastic team, and they are pushing the Imperials as of now out of Kansai and are heading to Kanto (and western Chubu).
So what were the differences in organization and mobilization here?
The decisive battle could possibly happen somewhere in Mino Province, just like in 1600.
Quicker emphasis on modernization (I wrote earlier that they already started the process of modernizing earlier), as well as Isami being more successful in combat.
Really because of Meiji himself and the general House of Yamato. I'm a massive monarchist IRL so there's also that.
You are an absolute monarchy monarchist or constitutional monarchy monarchist? Which monarchy in the world are you especially fond of?
I am glad you recognize the honor of Imperial household
A Repentant Heretic
Banned
No one. But it is nice to see Shogunate actually putting up good fight unlike OTL Boshin War.