¡Por la Patria, Viva México Fuerte! A Mexican TL

Hehe you got that right! ;) One thing I also omitted (though from several updates ago) was that TTL northern Mexico's infrastructure was nearly intact at the start of the war, as the Mexican government actually made strides (as late as they were) to appease the Comanche, so they don't destroy everything north of Durango and depopulate the region of Mexican settlers. By contrast the Americans are doing an excellent job at pissing them off, and that's definitely gonna bite them in the ass real bad.

...

You're right about Veracruz as well, it might fall, but I guarantee Puebla won't...assuming the American's advance that far, if they get stuck in Veracruz the Mexican's may just let yellow fever do all the work.
Indeed, considering that most U.S. casualties during the war IOTL came from tropical diseases.

Lol welcome back man! I'm honored to hear my timeline is a favorite of your :)

I'll definitely be giving some spotlight to the San Patricios, and you're correct, the Anti-Catholic backlash in the US will give immigration to Mexico a good boost. Your thoughts are most welcome! Having lived in el norte all my life it's always welcome to have the opinion of someone in the motherland. :)

You're welcome. Reading these timelines in which Mexico finally has a chance of getting things right instead of being treated as the great power's (or even the "Mayan rebels" that the guys at Map Games love so much) punching bag is a refreshing sight, specially on this site.

So, will there be any chance of seeing some "sanctioned" Catholic pogroms in the U.S. from what I can see. Seems like fun times are ahead. That, or an earlier ACW due to the epic failure brought to them courtesy of the Whigs, or the ACW averted due to both sides hating Mexico and the "Papists" way too much to make any difference, and becoming more and more isolated in terms of foreign policy. But alas, those are my thoughts.
 
I don't think pogroms in the US are so much likely to happen as anti-slave battles. Given that some of OTL's slave rebellions were pretty big, it stands to reason that TTL's will probably be the big domestic focus.

More likely I suspect would be anti-Catholic prejudice although not as much as against Mormons. But definitely more so than OTL. Based on my quick reading the Mormons were not so much subject to pogroms per se as to institutional discrimination and being pushed out of their original habitats.
 
Let's hope Mexico recovers territory.

No worries, they will hehe ;)

Well that is a surprise! Not sure what they will be recovering. Getting Texas, or the Salt Lake Basin might be a bit of a stretch, especially since in TTL there was no Adams-Onis Treaty, the borders were established as part of the treaty in which Mexico became independent, so they never actually controlled these lands.

Still awesome though!

Also I'm starting to think a state/territory might be created out of the Llano Estacado and part of the Pecos Basin to reward the Comanches for their aid down the line.
 
Also I'm starting to think a state/territory might be created out of the Llano Estacado and part of the Pecos Basin to reward the Comanches for their aid down the line.

Like you were saying about the Comanche's being the game changers, in the aftermath I could see them being quite secure in their domination over the southern plains. They could either grow into a huge threat over Mexico's northern lands or a vital asset in stabilizing them if they grow into loyal guardians of Mexico's frontier (like Cossacks). In the later case I could see some cultural ripples that might help with the treatment of Mexico's other Natives and leave an overall positive feeling for the heritage amongst the mestizo population down the road.
 
Indeed, considering that most U.S. casualties during the war IOTL came from tropical diseases.



You're welcome. Reading these timelines in which Mexico finally has a chance of getting things right instead of being treated as the great power's (or even the "Mayan rebels" that the guys at Map Games love so much) punching bag is a refreshing sight, specially on this site.

So, will there be any chance of seeing some "sanctioned" Catholic pogroms in the U.S. from what I can see. Seems like fun times are ahead. That, or an earlier ACW due to the epic failure brought to them courtesy of the Whigs, or the ACW averted due to both sides hating Mexico and the "Papists" way too much to make any difference, and becoming more and more isolated in terms of foreign policy. But alas, those are my thoughts.

Ugh tell me about it! I think my user title says it all, but I hate how so many on this site just assume that Mexico is fucked up no matter what, and that it's the United States destiny to annex as much of Mexico as they can.

As Zinc pointed out there won't be any government sanctioned "pogroms" of Catholics, but that probably won't stop individual people from doing some pretty nasty things to drive Catholics away. You're right though, "fun" times are ahead for the US. I will say that TTL's Civil War will be a very different conflict than OTL, and the post-war USA will become unrecognizable. Feel free to shoot any ideas by here or via PM if you prefer, always welcome to new ideas. :D

I don't think pogroms in the US are so much likely to happen as anti-slave battles. Given that some of OTL's slave rebellions were pretty big, it stands to reason that TTL's will probably be the big domestic focus.

More likely I suspect would be anti-Catholic prejudice although not as much as against Mormons. But definitely more so than OTL. Based on my quick reading the Mormons were not so much subject to pogroms per se as to institutional discrimination and being pushed out of their original habitats.

Correcto, after the war the slavery issue will boil over, and it won't be pretty (not that it was pretty in OTL, expect things to get worse). I agree with your assesement vis-a-vis the Catholics. Speaking of Mormons, I'll be dealing with them soon after I wrap up the war.

Well that is a surprise! Not sure what they will be recovering. Getting Texas, or the Salt Lake Basin might be a bit of a stretch, especially since in TTL there was no Adams-Onis Treaty, the borders were established as part of the treaty in which Mexico became independent, so they never actually controlled these lands.

Still awesome though!

Also I'm starting to think a state/territory might be created out of the Llano Estacado and part of the Pecos Basin to reward the Comanches for their aid down the line.

Lol I was referring to the land Mexico had lost to the Americans since the onset of the war (Tejas and the pits of occupied Tamaulipas and Nuevo León, among others). Texas at this point is unobtainable by Mexico, it's been too Americanized. The Salt Lake Basin though...I got special plans for it. ;)

Thanks dude! :)

Like you were saying about the Comanche's being the game changers, in the aftermath I could see them being quite secure in their domination over the southern plains. They could either grow into a huge threat over Mexico's northern lands or a vital asset in stabilizing them if they grow into loyal guardians of Mexico's frontier (like Cossacks). In the later case I could see some cultural ripples that might help with the treatment of Mexico's other Natives and leave an overall positive feeling for the heritage amongst the mestizo population down the road.

Othyrsyde basically answered the last bit of jycee's post for me, and put it so nicely! :D I love the idea of "Comanche Cossacks" guarding the northern frontier, because what's to stop the gringos from trying at Mexican territory again? As I have it planned out, events should allow for something like that to begin taking shape.
 
1847: Stab the Serpent in its Heart!
Mexican-American War PART II

Part II gets into what's going on in California, as well as the war at sea. The last part will conclude the war and deal with the immediate aftermath for both Mexico and the United States.

1847: Stab the Serpent in its Heart!

Siege of Veracruz

As year one of the First Mexican-American War came to a close, the Americans seemed to hold the advantage, as their armies had managed to invade and occupy a large portion of northeast Mexico. The new year however brought with it new fortunes, as the front lines began to shift northward in the aftermath of the Battle of Monterrey. The situation in Alta California was not much better for the Mexicans, with the American Pacific Squadron’s harassment of the Californian coast. As one of the key prizes the Americans hoped to reap, Alta California occupied an ample amount of attention by both sides. During the early spring of 1846 John C. Frémont (elevated to the rank of General by President Polk) led roughly 600 troops of Oregon volunteers south from the Willamette Valley into Mexican territory.[1] Upon entering the Sacramento Valley in late May, Frémont’s force was accompanied by another 150 volunteers of American settlers living in the valley. Frémont’s entry into the conflict coincided with a revolt orchestrated by American settlers north of Yerba Buena. The Mexican authorities had managed to contain the revolt somewhat, but the arrival of Frémont gave it new life, and in short order the unprepared Mexican Army under General José Castro was forced south, leaving much of the north in American hands. Over the course of the summer much of the California coast was raided and captured by the Americans, with the presidios at Monterey and San Diego capitulating to Commodore Robert F. Stockton in July and August respectively. Stockton also attempted to take Los Angeles, and despite landing troops at San Pedro the American’s were unable to overcome the stiff resistance the inhabitants of the pueblo put up. The Americans attempted various times to take Los Angeles, and after over a month Stockton’s men entered the town unopposed. The Mexicans under the leadership of Generals Flores and Andrés Pico, commander of the Californio Lancers, fell back and retreated into the San Gabriel Mountains, from where they harassed the occupying Americans. In October a detachment of Americans under Lieutenant Archibald H. Gillespie pursued the Californio troops, engaging them in inconclusive skirmishes near Rancho Castac.[2] The Mexicans received a big break at the Battle of Tejon Pass that November. Native scouts for the Mexicans alerted Flores and Pico of canyon walls at part of the pass laden with unstable rocks, and as the Americans made their way through the narrow canyon, explosives placed on the mountain sides suddenly detonated. The resulting landslide killed several Americans, including Gillespie, throwing the American detachment into a confused frenzy. The Mexicans, hidden nearby, proceeded to attack, killing over 100 men and taking the few survivors as prisoners. As news reached Stockton (who was stationed at Yerba Buena at the time) of the American defeat at Tejon Pass, Flores and Pico triumphantly entered Los Angeles on December 8, easily routing the skeleton garrison Gillespie had left there prior to his pursuit. General Kearny, who had been tasked to march west along the Gila River toward San Diego in order to supplement Stockton's attack by way of the sea, never made it as American control over Nuevo Mexico waned dramatically, which forced him to retreat. Without the intended support, the Americans lost San Diego to General Pico in January 1847. Despite holding much of southern Alta California, the Mexicans were aware they could not advance further without reinforcements. Following the recapture of San Diego, acting Governor Pío Pico (elder brother of Andrés Pico) sent word south for reinforcements and supplies. As fate would have it, President Iturbide had already sent a contingent of 2,500 troops under the command of General José de Urrea in November, but it would take the mass of soldiers some time until they reached the northern territories.


The ARM Guadalupe, flagship of the Mexican Navy.

The war at sea was another matter altogether. The American Home Fleet under the command of Commodore Matthew C. Perry attempted to blockade Mexico’s Gulf coast in the opening weeks of the war, but the Americans had drastically underestimated the blockade shattering capabilities of the new and improved Mexican Navy, and were forced into battle out in the open waters of the Gulf of Mexico. The Mexicans were aided in their endeavors by their own comodoro Guillermo Porter, whose own history and knowledge concerning the United States Navy served the Mexican cause well.[3] For much of 1846 the two navies shadowed each other through the Gulf, engaging in small skirmishes and the like. In April the ARM Moctezuma did battle with the USS Princeton off the coast of Tabasco for over an hour, managing to heavily damage each other but without a clear victor emergent. The Moctezuma nearly sank on its return to Alvarado, where it took vast repairs. The Princeton was not as fortunate, as it was engaged and subsequently captured by two Mexican brigantines, the ARM Colima and ARM Zempoalteca. Thereafter much of the war consisted of hit-and-run maneuvers by the Mexicans, who were intent to avoid heavily damaging their steam ships. This tactic proved to be most effective, as it relieved the Mexican Army by preventing adequate support from arriving to the invading American Army.


American landings near Veracruz, and the subsequent encirclement of the city.

Growing ever impatient with the pace of the war, President Polk authorized the formation of a new invasion force intent on the port of Veracruz. Polk felt the best way to quickly win the war was to “stab the serpent in its heart,” so he placed the famed General Winfield Scott at the head of a 12,000-man force intent to capture Veracruz and then march directly to Mexico City. The Mexicans, alerted to the impending amphibious assault, hastily diverted critical manpower to Veracruz. Before long the city, evacuated of many of its inhabitants, became the base of over 7,300 Mexican troops, with more arriving daily via rail from the capital. The assault on Veracruz commenced on February 26, 1847, when the Americans attempted landings at positions to the north and south of the city. The southern landing was caught by Mexican scouts and was quickly engaged, eventually being driven back to the sea.[4] The northern landing proved more successful, as the Mexicans were too late to stop the Americans there from entrenching themselves, and the resulting battle ended in a win for the Americans. Investment operations by Scott were halfhearted at best, as he was unable to completely envelop the city, but undeterred Scott ordered his troops to begin siege operations on March 9 after one last demand to surrender was rebuffed by the Mexicans. Both sides exchanged artillery for several days, effectively reducing much of the city to ruin. The Mexicans managed to inflict heavy damage to the Americans in turn, as a lucky mortar managed to penetrate deep into the USS Potomac, obliterating the ship and its crew in a massive explosion. Despite heavy losses, General Scott was absolute in his resolve to take the city, and from his northern base attempted to take Veracruz, street by street. After Fort Concepción’s capitulation to the Americans on March 21, the Americans slowly marched south through the city. Many of the American troops present were veterans of the Battle of Monterrey, and managed to provide valuable insight on urban warfare tactics to their fellow soldiers, tactics which eventually managed to give them the upper hand. After two weeks of gruesome house-to-house combat, Mexican forces in the city surrendered on April 4 allowing the bulk of Scott’s army to march eastward. A sizable contingent of soldiers under Brigadier General John A. Quitman remained to deal with Fort San Juan de Ulúa, where Mexican Lieutenant José S. Holzinger flatly refused to surrender.[5] The Americans were unable to revel in their victory at Veracruz, as Scott’s advance towards Jalapa was rebuffed at the Battle of Cerro Gordo, forcing his army south towards Córdoba. After a somewhat lengthy siege, Córdoba fell to the Americans in early May, but a force of over 9,000 Mexican troops laid waiting to the west on the road to Puebla. In the ensuing Battle of Palmar de Bravo the Mexicans under General Agustín Jerónimo de Iturbide inflicted a stinging defeat on Scott’s army, emaciated by poor supply lines and rising casualties due to yellow fever.[6] General Iturbide forced Scott’s beleaguered army back east, forcing the Americans to defend the ruined port city in vain. Encircled by the Mexicans, the Americans’ troubles had only to begin, as a flotilla of Mexican gunboats, led by the ARM Guadalupe, arrived in early June and commenced bombardment of the American ships in the harbor. With all hope lost, General Scott raised a flag of surrender on June 18, effectively putting an end to all hope the Americans had to end the war in one fell swoop. Scott limped back to New Orleans with what remained of the American Home Fleet, his reputation tarnished by his “duel with the serpent.”


Battle of Cerro Gordo

The Siege of Veracruz and its aftermath signaled the beginning of the end of the war, as Mexican morale reached new heights. The Mexican Navy, no longer burdened by the American Home Fleet, sent a major contingent of gunboats around Cape Horn to relieve Mexico’s besieged Pacific Coast (they were to join the Hidalgo, which was dispatched to the Pacific several months previous). Although rare, the Mexicans were brazen enough to conduct raids along the American Gulf Coast, including a bombardment of Mobile, Alabama by the Moctezuma in November 1847. The Mexican victory at Veracruz also prompted the start of the largest slave revolt in American history. In late August 1847 slaves on a sugar plantation owned by Mississippian transplant Samuel A. Davis took up arms, putting the plantation to the torch and recruiting slaves and free blacks as they passed other nearby plantations.[7] By mid-September most of central Cuba was in open rebellion, with a line of destruction stretching from Havana in the west to Santiago de Cuba in the east. For the United States, the rebellion came at the most inopportune time, as troops vital to the war effort in Mexico were now busy attempting to quash rebellion on American soil. Mexico, for its part, exploited the Cuban uprising by sea, supplying the Cubans with as much arms and supplies Iturbide could afford to spare without harming the war effort against the Americans on Mexican soil. Consequently Mexico could not provide a lot, but it was enough to keep the rebellion alive through the first half of 1848. Towards the latter end of the war, the bulk of maritime operations took place in the Pacific theater, with the Mexicans crippling the bulk of the American Pacific Fleet at the 2nd Battle of Mazatlán in late September 1847. The arrival of the Mexican naval force, headed by the Hidalgo, was instrumental in the Mexican victory at Mazatlán. After securing further victories against the Americans in the Gulf of California and off the coast of Baja California, the Mexican Navy proceeded to assist General Urrea in the retaking of parts of Alta California still under American occupation.

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[1] Reminder that TTL settlement of Oregon began earlier, and if nothing else American colonialism increased in the aftermath of war with Britain.
[2] Present day Castaic, CA.
[3] This is the eldest son of David Porter, OTL Commander-in-Chief of the Mexican Navy during the late 1820's. TTL his wife Evalina dies of illness sometime in the 1810's, and while in Mexico get's hitched with a local woman, eventually settling to stay in Mexico instead of returning to the US. His extended stay is certain to help the Mexicans with knowledge of the USN they may not have had OTL.
[4] Butterflies from Mexico being more stable, it can afford to have more scouts patrolling the area around Veracruz, and unlike OTL spot the Americans as they made their landings.
[5] Holzinger (a German immigrant to Mexico) was know for being extremely brave and probably was considered somewhat of a crazy mofo. OTL he was stationed at another fort guarding Veracruz, but I'd figure he'd be the perfect man to keep up the fight against the Americans from San Juan de Ulúa. Hell, if the Spanish could last months fighting from the fort, I don't see why the Mexicans can't.
[6] Yep, that's Iturbide's son, the eldest one to be exact. As for the yellow fever, the Americans getting bogged down in Veracruz means the disease really takes its toll.
[7] Yes that is Jefferson Davis' brother.
 
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You did it! You finally did it! The impossible AH challenge of having Mexico win a version of the Mex-American war.

Praise to you sir.

citizen kane clapping.gif
 
You did it! You finally did it! The impossible AH challenge of having Mexico win a version of the Mex-American war.

Praise to you sir.

Thank you my good sir, you're too kind :eek:

Hehe let's not discount your own TL, the Mexicans there still eek out a victory. :) The war still has a little ways to go, but yup the writing is already on the wall, the US has all but lost.
 
Fascinating. What will the consequences of the slave revolt be? This, coupled with the loss in war, will have a big effect on the culture and psyche of the US. Great update!

Cheers,
Ganesha
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Indeed, If it weren't for the California theater, Mexico would be invading sovereign U.S. territory. Not to say that the Mexican Army did not have this capability. But for now I can imagine Mexico forcing the U.S. to abandon all claims and pay off damages.
 
Again, great update! Like in the last one, the Americans are presented well in being a powerful adversary, wreaking lots of havoc, but a better prepared Mexico is making them pay for every attack and beating them back. Love how having Cuba is actually turning into a massive liability for the States. The pathfinder-like victory in California was hella sick too.:cool:

All Mexico needs to do now is push them out of the northeast, and their territory is secure.
 
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Well, Mexico will win.

How are you going to cover the 1848 revolutions in Europe?

How is the Pacific going?

I can see baseball and football (soccer) becoming popular in Mexico.

Good update.
 
Wow! As epic as ever!

How big is this slave rebellion going to get? I worry about the inevitable backlash, and the ensuing massacres. Also, the slave power will only get more belligerent if they know that they can't expand farther west than Texas. Is there an equivalent to the Knights of the Golden Circle present in these United States?
 
Wow! As epic as ever!

How big is this slave rebellion going to get? I worry about the inevitable backlash, and the ensuing massacres. Also, the slave power will only get more belligerent if they know that they can't expand farther west than Texas. Is there an equivalent to the Knights of the Golden Circle present in these United States?

Once the US loses the war, the debate over slavery's going to spin out of control even faster in TTL (unless the Cuban slave rebellion can spread).
 
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