¡Por la Patria, Viva México Fuerte! A Mexican TL

Part I: Fight for Independence
Firstly, I'm aware that there are a couple other Mexico timelines floating around, but I want to (or at least try to) stray away from the usual fate Mexico gets stuck with. My goal is to create a large, stable, republican Mexico, with the PoD immediately after the War for Independence begins. This is my very first timeline, so constructive criticism is welcomed and encouraged. I hope you guys enjoy the timeline! :)


Arkhangelsk’s first Timeline

¡Por la Patria, Viva México Fuerte!

-“My fellow citizens of the Republic, on this most hallowed of occasions, I ask of you all to remember and honor the sacrifices the founders of our great nation made to make us proud to be Mexicans. On this, the Bicentennial of our independence let us all continue to build a just and free society, a society our founders envisioned and a society that strives to promote life, liberty and the common good of all.”
-President Patricia Jimenez Elba
(Excerpt translated from the Noticias Azteca, 16 September 2010)

Part I
Fight for Independence

Towards the end of the first decade of the 19th century, a group of like-minded individuals, prominent among them Captain’s Ignacio Allende and Juan Aldama, Miguel Dominguez-the Corregidor of Querétaro-and his wife Josefa Ortiz de Dominguez, and Miguel Hidalgo formed the core of a conspiracy to bring an end to colonial control of New Spain. Inspired by Enlightenment philosophy, the group of conspirators would meet at the home of the Dominguez’s and discuss, among other things, the possibility of independence, citing that both Madrid and the Vice regal government had failed to properly respect the rights of its subjects.

As Spanish control over the empire deteriorated, culminating with Napoleon’s overthrow of King Fernando VII in 1808, the time for the conspirators to act seemed eminent. Over the course of the year 1810, the conspirators in Querétaro began assembling armaments, clandestinely recruiting supporters, and even drafting a new government. The date was set for 8 December as the beginning of the uprising, but it was not to be. As word leaked of an eminent revolt, largely due to members of the Querétaro conspiracy betraying the cause, the rebels were forced to move the start of the uprising to October. Events took an unexpected turn that September when the authorities of Querétaro arrested Miguel Dominguez and several other conspirators. Forewarned of the authorities, Allende rode via horse to Hidalgo’s parish at Dolores in neighboring Guanajuato.

Upon arriving at Dolores on the evening of 15 September, Allende warned Father Hidalgo about the course of events in Querétaro. At this point Hidalgo decided the time had come to act. Aided by workers and followers, Hidalgo apprehended the Spanish Priest, Father Bustamante, and raised the famous rebel battle cry-the Grito de Dolores-the war for independence has begun. The following morning, 16 of September, Hidalgo, Allende and Aldama, along with four thousand rebels (mostly Indians), took Allende’s hometown of San Miguel where Allende’s regiment soon joined the rebel cause. After a dispute between Hidalgo and Allende on who should take military command of the rebel army, Hidalgo conceded to the two men to go along the Conspiracy’s original trajectory and have Allende and Aldama hold joint command, with Hidalgo as second in command. [1]

On 18 September the rebels moved on the village of Celaya, which was quickly taken and rebel forces grew tenfold. Allende, although wary about the capacity for restraint of the new recruits, who were mostly Indians with little or no military background, decided to move on Guanajuato, the capital of the intendancy. Allende and Hidalgo both promised the intendant of Guanajuato, Juan Antonio Riaño, that the citizenry would be treated humanely if he were to surrender immediately. Riaño instead vowed to never surrender, amassing the citizenry into the city granary (Alhóndiga de Granaditas) and utilize the buildings structure as a makeshift fortress until reinforcements from México City arrived. However, the strategic location of hills immediately surrounding the granary quickly turned the battle to the insurgent’s advantage. Coupled with the death of Riaño early in the battle, the insurgents soon overran Guanajuato, but not before massacring great numbers of Spaniards, even those who had surrendered. Allende’s and Hidalgo’s attempts to stop the bloodshed went unanswered, and by the end of the day 600 Spaniards and 2,000 Indians lay dead. Allende, angered at what the insurgents had done, began to rein Hidalgo in, aware that in many ways the Priest’s inflammatory rhetoric towards the Spaniards had made the Indian’s lose control. Hidalgo was made to understand that, although his inspirational language would continue to invite more people to the cause, more divisive words would be met with the Captain’s fury.

Through October 1810, the insurgents made headway in the west, capturing Guadalajara and Valladolid. Allende, who now was seen as supreme commander, began instilling proper military training and tactics to the insurgents, in preparation for an engagement with Royal forces, which had hastily asserted control over Querétaro and San Luis Potosí. In Valladolid, the insurgents were also empowered by more forces who were led by another powerful priest, Father José María Morelos. Through private funds, Allende and his army, 80,000 strong, planned to strike the Royalists at their source-México City. En route to the capital, Allende and his army met with a vice regal force under the command of General Torcuato Trujillo, near Toluca, which itself was only 60 kl from México City. Trujillo’s death early in the battle insured the insurgent’s victory. [2]

With México city literally in sight, Allende sent emissaries to Viceroy Venegas to surrender the city, but Venegas rebuffed them on threats they be shot as traitors. On 3 November insurgent forces began engaging Royalist forces under the command of Augustín de Iturbide, along the western edge of the city. In the meantime, Viceroy Venegas and other senior officials, fearing the worst, took flight to Veracruz. In street battles said to be some of the bloodiest in the war, the insurgents slowly took the capital. Iturbide, with the few troops available to him in México City, fought a battle of attrition against Allende, hoping to make seizure if the city a pyrrhic victory. It was not to be, on 6 November, Iturbide and several hundred of his remaining men retreated east to Veracruz. With fighting dying down over the course of the day, the leaders of the revolt took their victory to their advantage. The following day, Allende, Aldama, Hidalgo and Morelos issued the Declaración de Independencia y Libertad de América Septentrional (Declaration of Independence and Liberty of Northern America), whereby establishing an independent nation-los Estados Unidos Mexicanos-or the United Mexican States, a nation completely independent from Spain. The Declaration also promised several things, paramount among them the abolition of slavery and the tribute tax. At this point Allende was officially made “Captitán-general de las Americas.” Allende, through December would continue training his army. Aiding in this venture would be fresh rebel forces, a mix of Indian peasants and Creole/Mestizo soldiers, flooding in from the north. Growing to just below 100,000 men, a good portion newly freed slaves, Allende dubbed this “Las Fuerzas Armadas de la nación Mexicana.”

Upon hearing of México City’s fall, an infuriated Viceroy Venegas ordered his remaining forces farther north, under the command of General Félix María Calleja to fall back from San Luis Potosí to Veracruz, in order to better calibrate their next course of action. Venegas decided on a renewed assault on the insurgents beginning in January 1811, in order to drive them out of México City.

At the beginning of January, Allende lead the insurgent army east, capturing Tlaxcala and Puebla, although the latter proved to be a bit troublesome, as a sizable contingent of Royalist forces had been placed there on the orders of Viceroy Venegas prior to México City’s capture. With the vast majority of the Valley of México under the insurgent flag, Allende’s next move was to march on Veracruz. Not only would capture of the strategic port greatly bolster the insurgent cause, but Allende hoped to apprehend Viceroy Venegas, whom proved to be unwilling to any compromise whatsoever. On 8 January the Royalists and Insurgents engaged near the village of Santa Rosa Necoxtla, on the mountain slopes overlooking Veracruz, fighting to a stalemate. The Insurgents, though having the field advantage of overlooking the enemy, General Calleja proved to be a formidable opponent. After further engagements proved ineffective for either side, Allende and Calleja returned to Tlaxcala and Veracruz respectively. The rest of January would be characterized by sporadic fighting along the eastern rim of the Valley of México.

Both sides took this general reprieve to their advantage. Calleja and Venegas began to move Loyalist forces from Central America and Cuba to compensate for their low numbers. Although Venegas had petitioned the mother country for more troops and supplies just prior to the Insurgent seizure of México City, any help from Spain itself would be slow in coming. Spain itself was locked in a struggle for its own independence against Napoleonic France, and coupled with the Insurgencies simultaneously breaking out in New Granada, Perú and Río de la Plata, any help from Europe would be negligible for the time being. Allende also began to take advantage of the lull in fighting, this time further consolidating control of land already under Insurgent control. This included the Intendancies of Guadalajara and Valladolid, portions of Arizpe, Durango, Coahuila, México, Puebla and Guanajuato, as well as the Provinces of Nueva Santander, Nuevo León and Tejas. At this time, Allende also sent Pascasio Ortiz de Letona as liaison to the United States. Upon Ortiz de Letona’s arrival in Washington D.C. in mid-March 1811, Letona would continually lobby President James Madison and Secretary of State Robert Smith to support the “struggle for freedom of all America.” Although Madison was receptive towards the plight of the independence movements in Spanish America, his pressing international issues at the time were with the British, who were continually “impressing” American sailors caught at sea. These events, coupled with Madison replacing Smith with James Monroe as Secretary of State that following April, would make Letona’s progress for recognition slow in coming.

[1]Point of Divergence: In OTL Hidalgo ended up being Supreme Commander.

[2]In OTL Trujillo survives long enough to call a temporary ceasefire.

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This is all I have so far, I'm kinda busy with school so the next update won't be for a while I'm afraid.
 
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Definitively interesting, you chose a good POD to have an early republican Mexico. But do remember, as you continue, that most of these guys (Hidalgo and Aldama at least) are fighting in the name of Ferdinand VII not in the name of a Republic.

Still I like to see where you take it and what you do with the more colorful characters like Santa Anna, Farias, Juarez, and Diaz (if you'll have the last two in the TL, they can still be butterflied away).

I have my own Mexico TL going on, with a different approach to a stable Mexico.
 
Interesting idea. I've always wondered what a Hidalguista (is that even a real political term?) Mexico would look like. Keep it up!
Thanks, although I plan to make Allende as the more leading figure, Hidalgo will still be an important person in early Mexico's development.

Definitively interesting, you chose a good POD to have an early republican Mexico. But do remember, as you continue, that most of these guys (Hidalgo and Aldama at least) are fighting in the name of Ferdinand VII not in the name of a Republic.

Still I like to see where you take it and what you do with the more colorful characters like Santa Anna, Farias, Juarez, and Diaz (if you'll have the last two in the TL, they can still be butterflied away).

I have my own Mexico TL going on, with a different approach to a stable Mexico.
Thanks jycee! I remember bumping into your TL a little while back, you chose a very interesting PoD as well (Conspiracy of the Machetes if I'm correct). You're also right about the whole issue with Ferdinand VII, and I forgot to mention it in the first installment, but as the Royalists continue to press on harshly (especially with a guy like Venegas at the helm), the idea of republicanism will, IMO, gain more acceptance.

One thing I felt that certainly hindered the Mexican independence movement was the fact that most the important people were dead by wars end. Expect the entire party to be calling the shots in Mexico City before decade's end (and the thought about how the Constitution of 1812 will affect the war makes me giddy :D )

I haven't gotten to thinking up the futures of all the aforementioned men, but no doubt it will be a fun endeavor. The best of luck to the both of us in reshaping Mexican history :)

Again, thanks for the feedback you guys, it means a lot!
 
just stopped by to give a shameless bump...

also, I'm slowly working on finishing the rest of the installment I posted earlier, but I have finals next week, so I'm pretty busy at the moment...but I will no doubt update at least once during Spring Break :D
 
I like it. Good Bump, I never would have known about it. I don't know much about Mexican history except the the Mexican-American war and a few things. I have been following Desmond Hume's work on the subject but he seems to have the old writer's block. I look forward to future installments. One thing, I was wondering if you knew what Madison's opinion were on Mexican independence, most of the founders had no use for anyone but WASPs (which I am trying to change read my TL for more, shameless plug:D), your comment about his receptiveness got me thinking. I know Jackson always thought of Spanish lands as opportunities and Washington made jokes about Spanish (not Mexican) infertility, so just wanted your thoughts. If you have questions regarding American reaction please let me know I may be of some help. Otherwise can't wait for an update.
 
I like it. Good Bump, I never would have known about it. I don't know much about Mexican history except the the Mexican-American war and a few things. I have been following Desmond Hume's work on the subject but he seems to have the old writer's block. I look forward to future installments. One thing, I was wondering if you knew what Madison's opinion were on Mexican independence, most of the founders had no use for anyone but WASPs (which I am trying to change read my TL for more, shameless plug:D), your comment about his receptiveness got me thinking. I know Jackson always thought of Spanish lands as opportunities and Washington made jokes about Spanish (not Mexican) infertility, so just wanted your thoughts. If you have questions regarding American reaction please let me know I may be of some help. Otherwise can't wait for an update.
Actually, I have plans for Jackson and Spanish Florida, but I'm kinda stuck in a rut regarding details. I would greatly appreciate some info on that area please :D

I'm currently up to the beginning of 1812 so far, I don't want to post anything more until I get to the Cadiz Constitution and after effects (pretty much wrap up the next year). I'll try to get it up ASAP, but most likely until the end of next week.

Above all, thanks for the feedback GreatScottMarty! :)
 
1811: The Revolution Spreads
Here's the next update, this one has more meat in it :D

1811: The Revolution Spreads
February proved to be the Insurgents first setback, as Calleja, with some support from Guatemalan troops launched a renewed offensive into the Valley of México from recently captured Puebla. Insurgent forces under the command of Ignacio López Rayón engaged Calleja immediately to the south of México City, but were unable to deter the Royalist advanced, forcing the Insurgent government to flee to Valladolid. Regardless of this victory, reoccupation would prove to be troublesome for the Royalists, as guerrilla bands would harass Viceroy Venegas upon his arrival to México City. Soon after Venegas ordered Calleja to pursue Allende’s Army into neighboring Valladolid, hoping that another blow would make the Insurgent cause crumble. Calleja, disagreeing with Venegas at first, feeling that the Royalists should better plan their next course of action, pursued Allende nonetheless. At the famous Battle of Taximaroa, the Insurgents managed to decisively halt Calleja’s advance, forcing a beaten Royalist army to retreat back to México City. Upon Calleja’s arrival to México City, Venegas confronted Calleja, blaming him for the Royalists ineffectiveness against the Insurgents. The resulting rift between the two men would have major ramifications several months later.

Allende, Aldama, Hidalgo, Morelos and Rayón, in the meantime, would relocate the capital to Guadalajara. For the next several weeks, the Insurgents began planning new strategies in combating the Royalists. Part of the strategy included a three-pronged attack: Morelos and twenty thousand men would move out from Valladolid (Morelos’s hometown), to garner support in Southern New Spain and to link up with rebel elements in the Yucatan Peninsula. Rayón would lead his own contingent of troops north, to link up with rebels in Tejas and hopefully make connections with Americans sympathetic to the Insurgent cause. The remainder, under Allende’s command, would push east, to retake México City and continue to Veracruz. By May 1811 the plan was in full motion, With Morelos’s Army capturing the port of Acapulco on 25 June 1811 and poised to attack Oaxaca. Morelos would continue to upset the Royalists and by October his Army was in control of Chiapas, in the Audiencia of Guatemala. Morelos’s arrival coincided with the beginning of a revolt breaking out in the city of San Salvador. Due to Royalists occupied in Guatemala City to defend the capital from Morelos and his men, coupled with the Royalists already taken out of Central America earlier in the year to face Allende, the revolt in San Salvador grew to encompass all the land between the Gulf of Fonseca and the Río Paz [1]. The Central American revolt all but assured Guatemala City’s fate, falling to Insurgent forces on 8 December.

Meanwhile Rayón and his men, after fighting Royalist forces in and around Zacatecas and Durango, would link up with Insurgents in Nuevo Léon. From his temporary headquarters at Monterrey, Rayón would unite all the Insurgent bands operating on the Gulf Coast and begin his conquest of Tejas, where a separate revolt similar to the one in Guatemala was unfolding. In June of 1811 a band of men under Rayón’s command raided Monclova, where they would free all the prisoners jailed there. Many of those jailed included Tejan Revolutionaries who had been condemned to death, such as Juan Bautista de las Casas. As a result of the new reinforcements, Rayón would push deep into Tejas and by late 1811 his army was situated on the Nueces River just outside La Bahía [2]. There the remaining Royalist forces had banded together to stop the Insurgent advance on San Antonio, the provincial capital. Though both sides suffered heavy losses at La Bahía, Rayón manages to take the village and move north. This alarming turn of events is more than enough for Governor Manuel María de Salcedo to evacuate San Antonio de Bexar. However, on his flight to Nacogdoches where an interim capital would be set up Salcedo was intercepted by Insurgents under the command of De las Casas, the very same man Salcedo had imprisoned and condemned to death several months before. The Insurgents would proceed to shoot Salcedo just outside San Marcos on 15 December 1811. With Salcedo dead the organization of the Royalist movement in Tejas significantly crumbled, with any significant Royalist forces moving to the Tejan coast and Nuevo Santander. Rayón and De las Casas, now in control of San Antonio de Bexar, proceeded to consolidate their position within the province, as well as establish informal connections with the United States. By the dawn of 1812, both Americans and Insurgents freely traveled between the U.S.-Tejan border, with the city of New Orleans becoming a major hub for Insurgent activity outside the boundaries of New Spain.

Meanwhile, Allende, Aldama and Hidalgo marched from Guadalajara on 30 May 1811, managing to retake the town of San Francisco de Tepatitlán with relative ease on 3 June 1811, in no small part thanks to the efforts of a local resistance cell lead by Juan Gutiérrez Castellanos, a local Insurgent Partisan who began harassing the Royalists as soon as they had retaken the area, earlier in the year [3]. The first major engagement between Allende and Calleja since the previous spring would be near the birthplace of the Independence movement itself, just outside Guanajuato in late June. With the help of larger popular revolts similar to the one in Eastern Jalisco, Allende managed to deal a decisive blow to Calleja, forcing him to move north to San Felipe. With the Insurgent army in pursuit throughout July and early August, Calleja set up defense around the city of San Luis Potosí. Engagement would ensue once more in mid-August, where the Insurgents and Royalists fought to a stalemate, with Calleja retaining San Luis Potosí. Already a Royalist stronghold, Allende knew he would have to fight hard for every inch of ground in this area of New Spain. As frontal assaults were proving null, Allende decided to use the geography to his advantage once more. On the evening of 31 August 1811 a contingent of several thousand Insurgents under the command of Juan Aldama made their way around the mountains to the city’s southwest in order to attack Calleja’s southern and western flanks simultaneously. All the while Allende would renew his push into the city. In the early morning hours of 1 September 1811 Allende attacked Calleja’s eastern flanks, anticipating that Calleja would act on information given to him by spies on the movements of the Insurgents and focus on his western flank, which was exactly the case. Calleja attempted to supplement his eastern flank with some of the troops available to him, but fearing he would not have enough to face the impending attack from the west he did not spread his forces very far. When Aldama and his force did begin their attack around noon Calleja’s western flank proved more resilient than previously anticipated, as the Insurgents were proving incapable of breaking any of Calleja’s lines. The dynamic changed completely however around 2pm when Insurgent artillery struck an ammunition wagon, causing a massive explosion that killed scores of Royalists and injured Calleja [4]. This momentary lapse in Royalist organization was all that was needed to break the western flank and allow the Insurgents to capture most of the city. By late afternoon Calleja was in Insurgent custody and Royalists not captured by Allende spread into the wilderness of the Sierra Madre Oriental. Most of September was characterized by the Insurgent capture of Rioverde and Los Valles. On 1 October, one month after the Battle of San Luis Potosí, Allende would capture Tampico on the Gulf of México, giving the Insurgents an Atlantic port. The remainder of 1811 would be characterized by the creation of the Mexican Navy in Tampico, utilizing captured Spanish warships. Subsequently harassment operations would be performed on Veracruz and other ports along the Gulf Coast, as well as increased interaction with Americans in New Orleans.

1812: The Continental War and the Cádiz Constitution
It had now been over a year since the beginning of the war for independence against Spain, and it seemed that every day the nature of the struggle changed. In November 1810, when the leaders of the Revolution met in México City consensus was, for the most part, achieved that the struggle was being fought in the name of Fernando VII, the deposed King of Spain. By 1812 many of the leaders were beginning to have reservations regarding the deposed monarchy, but made no public statements so as to aid in recruiting more people to the cause, as many common folk still had not warmed up to the idea of gaining complete independence from Spain. The public consensus on independence would make a swift veer in the opposite direction by the end of the year as the situation for the Royalists continues to worsen.

In the north, Rayón managed to make a very important ally in the form of Bernardo Gutiérrez de Lara. A native of Nuevo Santander, Gutiérrez was a fervent supporter of the Revolution, initially aiding Rayón in his campaign through Tejas a year earlier. Acting on orders from Rayón, Gutiérrez would embark on a visit to the United States early in 1812. Joining Ortiz de Letona, both men would gain an audience in the House of Representatives on 22 March 1812, where they pleaded legislators on aid for Mexican Independence, citing how foreign aid was instrumental in the United States very own independence. A great number of Congressman were moved my the speech, and gain a great deal of interest in the conflict, if nothing else for the incentives it provided the United States in real estate. In particular Spanish Florida had been coveted by many Americans for several years now, and snatching them from a weakened Spain seemed like the perfect chance. Regardless, President Madison was weary of inciting war with Spain, seeing as war with a greater power such as Britain loomed over the horizon.

Interestingly enough, the next earth-shattering event to rock New Spain occurred across the Atlantic, in Spain itself. Ever since Napoleon’s invasion of Spain four years prior, the fledgling Spanish Government was forced to seek refuge at the coastal city of Cadíz. The resulting Cadíz Cortes, which included several members from Spanish America and the Philippines, would promulgate the famous Cadíz Constitution of 1812, the first in Spanish history and one that utilized many liberal enlightenment ideas. Upon its publication in New Spain several months later, it would change the face of the War for Independence completely.

As information on the new Constitution slowly made its journey across the ocean, a new conflict was about to come to life. Tensions between the United States and Great Britain, had finally reached fever pitch by the summer of 1812, with President Madison asking Congress for a Declaration of War on Great Britain on 1 June. On the 18 June the war was on with the American invasion of Southern Ontario, thus delaying the chance for any desirable American aid to Mexico.
Map of the World as of late 1812



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[1] OTL El Salvador
[2] Present day Goliad, Texas
[3] A fictional ancestor of mine, my family is from San Francisco de Tepatitlan, or known today as Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco...hehe :p
[4] hehe...read about OTL's Battle of Calderón Bridge.
...ok, it's really late here, and I'm very tired, so I'll continue the update tomorrow.
 
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Interesting. What are your plans for the War of 1812?
demonkangaroo

That's a good question but would there be much in the way of butterflies at this point? Could get some virtually random factor spinning off an avalanche of changing circumstances. However might easily assume no change of note. - Where there might be a change is post both wars. A stronger and more coherent Mexico would make a valuable trade partner/ally for either power - although that could lead to clashes later with the US over Texas.

One question however for Arkhangelsk. You mentioned the US interest in Florida. Does the rebel movement in Mexico see itself as a successor of Spain and hence seek to claim Florida or Cuba say themselves. [Probably would be stupid to but might feel a kinship with other Spanish colonies, especially if their success prompts unrest in them].

Steve
 
Interesting. What are your plans for the War of 1812?
I haven't really thought it through completely. For now it will be the same conflict as OTL, but with a significant number of Mexican soldiers in New Orleans at the wars inception, it should lead to some pretty big butterflies...I will say that U.S.-Spanish relations will not be the warmest over the course of the next few years...

Again thank you for the interest, it means a lot :)
 
I haven't really thought it through completely. For now it will be the same conflict as OTL, but with a significant number of Mexican soldiers in New Orleans at the wars inception, it should lead to some pretty big butterflies...I will say that U.S.-Spanish relations will not be the warmest over the course of the next few years...

Again thank you for the interest, it means a lot :)
Arkhangelsk

Sorry, am I missing something here? New Orleans is already American, although neither Britain nor Spain have accepted the transfer as legitimate. What is the new Mexican state, still strugling to secure itself against the Spanish loyalists, doing sending troops there?

Steve
 
demonkangaroo

That's a good question but would there be much in the way of butterflies at this point? Could get some virtually random factor spinning off an avalanche of changing circumstances. However might easily assume no change of note. - Where there might be a change is post both wars. A stronger and more coherent Mexico would make a valuable trade partner/ally for either power - although that could lead to clashes later with the US over Texas.

One question however for Arkhangelsk. You mentioned the US interest in Florida. Does the rebel movement in Mexico see itself as a successor of Spain and hence seek to claim Florida or Cuba say themselves. [Probably would be stupid to but might feel a kinship with other Spanish colonies, especially if their success prompts unrest in them].

Steve
Steve got it right on the dot, the War of 1812 will go more or less how it did in OTL, but do expect some butterflies due to the stronger Rebel movement.

To answer you question, any feelings Allende and the other leaders have towards keeping Florida would be cast away in order to achieve independence. Considering Florida is seperated from New Spain by the US, coupled with the territory's sparse population, the Rebels wouldn't mind losing Florida is it meant fulfillment of their goals. Same would go to Cuba, but I will say that after independence, once Mexico is firmly established as a nation, expect some war-hawks in Mexico City to call for the "liberation" the rest of the former Viceroyalty.
 
Arkhangelsk

Sorry, am I missing something here? New Orleans is already American, although neither Britain nor Spain have accepted the transfer as legitimate. What is the new Mexican state, still strugling to secure itself against the Spanish loyalists, doing sending troops there?

Steve
I'm sorry if I was unclear, the Mexican presence in Louisiana is limited to bands of soldiers going in and out of the city for supplies, rest, possibly recruiting Americans and things of that nature. The Rebels do not claim Louisiana at all. Now that this topic is up however, is the presence of Mexican Rebels, even the very slightest, nearing ASB levels? If so I'll amend accordingly. :eek:
 
It seems like you have Mexican rebels everywhere. I don't have a problem with it, except for this thought, if these rebels are everywhere why can't they kick out the Royalists?

As for Florida, Jackson always considered Florida to be an opportunity worth taking considering the weakness of Spain and the proximity to the border and also Florida's nasty habit of being a refuge for runaway slaves and renegade Cherokees (you know them as Seminoles). Because of that Situation Jackson went into Florida as part of an escalation of the post War of 1812 Indian Wars that racked the South (Redstick War, etc). To be fair at this point Jackson isn't known outside of Tennessee and doesn't make his name until New Orleans in 1815 so we don't have to be to concerned with him.

In you TL you have opportunity IMHO to remove the War of 1812 as we know it and instead make it about France and Spain. Both France and England were impressing sailors and using them in there navies, since Democratic-Republicans (Madison's party) were primarily Francophiles they took exception to British impressment more than France's combined with the recent Louisiana Purchase, The US was left with good feelings towards France.

Play along with me and let me propose a butterfly effect for you.
The speech to Congress is moving and Congress lobbies Madison to declare war on Spain and France instead. As a result, American gets to go after Cuba, Puerto Rico and many Carribean Islands as well as Florida. While New England doesn't get its war with Canada, they do get new markets for shipping and the South gets some new Slave States. The addition, post war of, Cuba (Cuba you could divide in half) and Florida as slave states and the admission of some states in the old Northwest Territory maintains sectional balance. Not to mention a War with Spain/France makes sense in terms of Realpolitik. For one there is no way France/Spain can defend those territories while England's dominant Navy will surely be able to invade America (OTL for example). For another American merchants need access to the Markets that England provides.

Here is a big WI because you are trying a Mexico-Wank but America provides guns and money in exchange for say Texas, parts of New Mexico and Colorado and Nevada.

I don't think America in any situation would want to be directly involved but money and supplies definitly if only because they might think it would be easier to get the territory they wanted from an independent Mexico.

Good update, I can't wait for more:)
 
I'm sorry if I was unclear, the Mexican presence in Louisiana is limited to bands of soldiers going in and out of the city for supplies, rest, possibly recruiting Americans and things of that nature. The Rebels do not claim Louisiana at all. Now that this topic is up however, is the presence of Mexican Rebels, even the very slightest, nearing ASB levels? If so I'll amend accordingly. :eek:
Arkhangelsk

OK, many thanks for clarifying. That makes a good degree of sense as you have small groups seeking to improve the position of the rebels. Might also be that a few get stranded there occasional as not sure how much they will be able to travel by sea. [Since after the Napoleonic invasion and overthrown of the monarchy I think Spain was a de-facto British ally so what ships the royalists had would be able to move freely and they might even ask for British support. That could create some awkward problems for Britain if it did given assistance to the loyalists]. A few years later it famously supported the independence movements but not sure what the situation is now, especially if say the rebellion is disrupting trade with Mexico.

A few Mexican in New Orleans might have a political impact, presuming the 1815 attack still occurs, which again could be messy later on. If they feel obliged to take part in the defence of the city, or alternative decide its not their war it might affect the way Britain and America see the new government.

Steve
 
GreatScottMarty

Two queries on what you said.

a) Never heard that the French were trying to impress sailors as well. Would make sense given Napoleon's desire to rebuild his fleet. However given the by this time pretty tight blockade of the French ports and surviving colonies I wouldn't have thought that they would have much chance. Also I would expect that at least some of the impressed sailors were deserters from the RN as its officers suggested, which would give a basis for such actions. Very much doubt of the American merchant marine had that many French speakers so such actions by them would be less effective and more controversial.

b) While elements, especially in the south and west were eager for war with Britain the one area that firmly opposed it was New England. It was making good business with Canada, often had relatives on the other side of the border and know it would get hit badly by the obvious British counter of blockade.

Also when you talk about declaring war on France and Spain. By the latter I presume you mean the royalists to allow an attack on Florida. Since they are allied to Britain at this point your effectively talking about declaring war on both sides, which would be awkward to put it mildly. I know the Americans did occupy much of Florida later on but I'm not sure if they ever formally declared war on Spain and in 1812 I think they were still busy fighting the Indians in their own territory.

Steve


It seems like you have Mexican rebels everywhere. I don't have a problem with it, except for this thought, if these rebels are everywhere why can't they kick out the Royalists?

As for Florida, Jackson always considered Florida to be an opportunity worth taking considering the weakness of Spain and the proximity to the border and also Florida's nasty habit of being a refuge for runaway slaves and renegade Cherokees (you know them as Seminoles). Because of that Situation Jackson went into Florida as part of an escalation of the post War of 1812 Indian Wars that racked the South (Redstick War, etc). To be fair at this point Jackson isn't known outside of Tennessee and doesn't make his name until New Orleans in 1815 so we don't have to be to concerned with him.

In you TL you have opportunity IMHO to remove the War of 1812 as we know it and instead make it about France and Spain. Both France and England were impressing sailors and using them in there navies, since Democratic-Republicans (Madison's party) were primarily Francophiles they took exception to British impressment more than France's combined with the recent Louisiana Purchase, The US was left with good feelings towards France.

Play along with me and let me propose a butterfly effect for you.
The speech to Congress is moving and Congress lobbies Madison to declare war on Spain and France instead. As a result, American gets to go after Cuba, Puerto Rico and many Carribean Islands as well as Florida. While New England doesn't get its war with Canada, they do get new markets for shipping and the South gets some new Slave States. The addition, post war of, Cuba (Cuba you could divide in half) and Florida as slave states and the admission of some states in the old Northwest Territory maintains sectional balance. Not to mention a War with Spain/France makes sense in terms of Realpolitik. For one there is no way France/Spain can defend those territories while England's dominant Navy will surely be able to invade America (OTL for example). For another American merchants need access to the Markets that England provides.

Here is a big WI because you are trying a Mexico-Wank but America provides guns and money in exchange for say Texas, parts of New Mexico and Colorado and Nevada.

I don't think America in any situation would want to be directly involved but money and supplies definitly if only because they might think it would be easier to get the territory they wanted from an independent Mexico.

Good update, I can't wait for more:)
 
GreatScottMarty

Two queries on what you said.
a) Never heard that the French were trying to impress sailors as well. Would make sense given Napoleon's desire to rebuild his fleet. However given the by this time pretty tight blockade of the French ports and surviving colonies I wouldn't have thought that they would have much chance. Also I would expect that at least some of the impressed sailors were deserters from the RN as its officers suggested, which would give a basis for such actions. Very much doubt of the American merchant marine had that many French speakers so such actions by them would be less effective and more controversial.
The Impressment issue went as far back as 1796 and the Quasi War which made had a lot to do with the perception of American shipping being violated by the French (but mostly because of the XYZ Affair). Impressment continued on until the War of 1812, when Madison had decided he had enough and figured England was distracted. What it came down to was the perception in the American media at the time that both sides were infringing upon America's sovereign rights. All I am requiring Madison to do is be opportunistic and expand southwards into Florida and the Caribbean considering the political base of the D-Rs is not that big of a stretch IMHO.

b) While elements, especially in the south and west were eager for war with Britain the one area that firmly opposed it was New England. It was making good business with Canada, often had relatives on the other side of the border and know it would get hit badly by the obvious British counter of blockade.
New England's stand on the War of 1812 is complicated and is obvious in the regional response to it. They had been agitating for about a decade to have the govt do something about the Impressment problem, which Adams, Jefferson and Madison had been loath to do. J/M wanted to avoid war with England for two reasons IMO, 1, They needed the markets for southern agricultural goods 2, did not want to expand the military, 3, with Adams at least a realization that the USA would be crushed. That is sets stage, so as the Napoleonic wars escalate and France moves into Spain America sees the opportunity to take Canada and stick one to the English. D-R's being Francophilic by policy say an opportunity to stick it to England, gain momentum in a bastion of Federalism, and stick one to the Federalists by saying we don't need England. Also there was the Embargo Act, which served to build up the NEw England textile industry it did pretty much drown trade between the US and Europe and sent the US into an economic slump. So as the invasion of Canada stalled out, and the British burnt Washington and besieged Baltimore the War of 1812 became increasingly unpopular. Finally, Jackson won the Battle of New Orleans after the war was over and the whole War became in America's eyes a draw. While at the end of 1814 the Hartford Convention was held to discuss secession from the Union because of the poor war effort. Basically New England was in favor of entry because it meant trade with one side or the other and would put an end to the

Also when you talk about declaring war on France and Spain. By the latter I presume you mean the royalists to allow an attack on Florida. Since they are allied to Britain at this point your effectively talking about declaring war on both sides, which would be awkward to put it mildly. I know the Americans did occupy much of Florida later on but I'm not sure if they ever formally declared war on Spain and in 1812 I think they were still busy fighting the Indians in their own territory.

Steve
They didn't occupy when Jackson invaded Florida he went looking for Indians and fought several battles and went home. Later the Americans bought Florida. I am trying to create a pre-text for an American Invasion of Florida, I think this exists in the War of 1812, between the aid to Indians and Impressment.
 
Ack, I'm horrible when it comes to updating...and I apologize to not responding for such a long period of time, I started a new quarter at the university which turned out a tad more hectic then I had anticipated...

A very interesting scenario you posited GreatScottMarty, I like it! :D

I've been trying to come up with a possible casus belli for hostilities between the US and Spain with the end goal (for the US) to gain Florida. Adding France into the mix just adds flavor, and it does make sense for the US to strike at the colonial possessions of nations that cannot do anything about it.

I love the proposed butterfly GSM, only one tidbit (rather big I think) unnerves me...I'm attempting to have New Spain/Mexico keep as much territory as it can as per OTL's Adams-Onís Treaty (bear in mind butterflies will do their work in ensuring TTL's treaty is different). I may allow the US to ask for half of Tejas and for New Spain/Mexico's northern border to be pushed a bit lower than 42 N in exchange for support against Spain...what are your thoughts?

Again, I thank you for your input to this TL, it truly means a lot! :)
 
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