Hey, at least we're discussing issues relevant to the story, mostly.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Exactly Mattll, He and I might be arguing about aircraft carriers but... in fairness it is kind of where Allan has led us in the story. Can't exactly fly those Tanks to Thailand in a Biplane... oh no you're right that was covered. Just filling in time until Allan unleashes TANK stuf in ...... Ukraine? Soon? We can always go back to 6lb guns or maybe food. Hey did you know USN Aircraft carriers had Ice Cream makers on them?
You can spam posts that are "asking you to stop" but this is directly connected to story, what's the problem...? It is said literally in last update that a RN CV force if headed to confront IJN CV force, which is the exact topic of discussion.
I do sort of wonder with everything going on and the plethora of captured kit both German and Italian if the British infantry kit has been improved on in terms of arms issued and uniform? I mean Britain had very good battle dress at the start of the war but boots leave a lot to be desired, also in terms of small arms would they take this time go massively improve the Sten or develop a new SMG, same for infantry portable anti tank weapons given they will probably be thinking of how to improve it I mean the PIAT is in development right now will the take more time on it? I mean all of this ties back to the fact that the British Army is looking seriously at an armoured personel carrier.
finally there is the Lee-Enfield I love the Lee but will they try something diaristic like the Charlton or keep improving the Lee and maybe someone will run a new rifle development parrel.
Well since those ships are moving to Australia to rendezvous with the American fleet (probably on the east coast), they're going to be out of action for a while (Surabaya to Brisbane is more than 3,100 nmi, or more than a week at 15 knots). Looking at the other fronts, the monsoon is on in Burma, so an update from there is unlikely, and possibly the same for Malaya. I doubt there's much to say about North Africa or the Mediterranean at this point, so I suspect the next update is either going to be from the USSR, or regarding industrial developments in Britain or the USA.
The Charlton Rifle, even the Electrolux produced model, was nothing more than a brilliant bodge job undertaken in extremis, due to a critical shortage of firearms. There is no way the Charlton would stand up to real front line service, although Charlton himself was capable of designing an entirely new rifle. I've even seen examples of his work on display in the New Zealand Army Museum in Waiouru.
However, the British Empire does have the time to develop a new semi-automatic rifle, even a new cartridge, since the invasion & liberation of Europe is still some time away and the Japanese are somewhat contained.
The Charlton was never made to see front-line service, but rather, was made to equip the New Zealand Home Guard. Of course, with the Japanese stymied, it might never see the light of day to begin with, since there's no invasion panic.
I very much doubt a new cartridge is in the works, but a semi-automatic rifle in .303 might be viable. Possibly a run of Garands could be reworked to accept .303 cartridges?
See also: Squadron Leader Martindale's discovery that the Spitfire had variable geometry wings
28 May 1942. Muar, Malaya.
allanpcameron
Donor
28 May 1942. Muar, Malaya.
A selection of men of the Australian 8 and 9 Divisions and British 18th Division had been gathered to discuss the problems they’d had countering the Japanese bunkers at Ipoh. Between the strength of these defensive positions and their ability to support one another, the Australians had struggled to overcome the Japanese defenders. Most of the men at the meeting had been mentioned in dispatches for the way in which they had dealt with the Japanese bunkers. The men knew that there were plenty of others who hadn’t survived, who had tried various methods to deal with the bunkers.
A few things were taken for granted. When the infantry had tank support, they would be able to make progress. When the infantry were trying to deal with the bunkers without tank support they generally didn’t do so well. One of the problems that hadn’t been considered was that the camouflage of the bunkers was such that they weren’t always seen until too late. By which time the infantry were too close to the target for artillery support, and generally the bunkers were hardened enough to withstand mortar fire, even in some cases direct hits from 25-pdr shells.
It was clear that the infantry sections needed a weapon capable of engaging the bunkers that was man-portable, accurate and powerful. The Japanese Type 100 flamethrowers that had been examined were one solution that was being examined. One of the common responses to the discovery of Japanese bunkers was to mark them by firing a flare at them. On a couple of occasions, the flame of the flare spread, making life for the Japanese machine gunners more difficult, and therefore desirable for the British and Australian troops.
One enterprising Australian Company had persuaded a battery of 25-pdrs to lend them one gun and crew, which the Australians brought up during the cover of darkness and then used it to put direct fire into a bunker that had resisted everything else. The officers of the Royal Australian Artillery made it clear that they did not want a repeat of this, under any circumstances. What made the episode worse, was that the Forward Observer had remained with the gun’s crew who used it almost like a sniper. A Japanese NCO had been spotted giving orders, and the since he was in a position that had already been surveyed, the Forward Observer ‘nominated’ him, and the Japanese soldier was vapourised by a 25-lber shell.
The troops that had been supported by Matilda II infantry tanks, primarily from 18th Division, all seemed to have an easier time than those supported by Stuart Light tanks. The 2-pdr on the Matilda and the 37mm on the Stuart tanks weren’t a great deal of use, and in both cases, it was the machine guns on the tank that provided the cover for the infantry to close with the bunkers and destroy them. The exception was those sections supported by the Matilda II CS tanks with the 3-inch howitzer. These were far more effective providing direct fire HE rounds, and on many occasions providing smoke cover as well. The news that V Corps’ Tank Brigade was made up of Infantry Tanks, all equipped with the 3-inch howitzer and two machine guns, was a real sign that someone back in Blighty had listened to the previous reports.
A selection of men of the Australian 8 and 9 Divisions and British 18th Division had been gathered to discuss the problems they’d had countering the Japanese bunkers at Ipoh. Between the strength of these defensive positions and their ability to support one another, the Australians had struggled to overcome the Japanese defenders. Most of the men at the meeting had been mentioned in dispatches for the way in which they had dealt with the Japanese bunkers. The men knew that there were plenty of others who hadn’t survived, who had tried various methods to deal with the bunkers.
A few things were taken for granted. When the infantry had tank support, they would be able to make progress. When the infantry were trying to deal with the bunkers without tank support they generally didn’t do so well. One of the problems that hadn’t been considered was that the camouflage of the bunkers was such that they weren’t always seen until too late. By which time the infantry were too close to the target for artillery support, and generally the bunkers were hardened enough to withstand mortar fire, even in some cases direct hits from 25-pdr shells.
It was clear that the infantry sections needed a weapon capable of engaging the bunkers that was man-portable, accurate and powerful. The Japanese Type 100 flamethrowers that had been examined were one solution that was being examined. One of the common responses to the discovery of Japanese bunkers was to mark them by firing a flare at them. On a couple of occasions, the flame of the flare spread, making life for the Japanese machine gunners more difficult, and therefore desirable for the British and Australian troops.
One enterprising Australian Company had persuaded a battery of 25-pdrs to lend them one gun and crew, which the Australians brought up during the cover of darkness and then used it to put direct fire into a bunker that had resisted everything else. The officers of the Royal Australian Artillery made it clear that they did not want a repeat of this, under any circumstances. What made the episode worse, was that the Forward Observer had remained with the gun’s crew who used it almost like a sniper. A Japanese NCO had been spotted giving orders, and the since he was in a position that had already been surveyed, the Forward Observer ‘nominated’ him, and the Japanese soldier was vapourised by a 25-lber shell.
The troops that had been supported by Matilda II infantry tanks, primarily from 18th Division, all seemed to have an easier time than those supported by Stuart Light tanks. The 2-pdr on the Matilda and the 37mm on the Stuart tanks weren’t a great deal of use, and in both cases, it was the machine guns on the tank that provided the cover for the infantry to close with the bunkers and destroy them. The exception was those sections supported by the Matilda II CS tanks with the 3-inch howitzer. These were far more effective providing direct fire HE rounds, and on many occasions providing smoke cover as well. The news that V Corps’ Tank Brigade was made up of Infantry Tanks, all equipped with the 3-inch howitzer and two machine guns, was a real sign that someone back in Blighty had listened to the previous reports.
allanpcameron
Donor
Just for a change to the aircraft carrier debate. The bit about the NCO being vapourised came from a documentary about the Australians in one the battles on New Guinea.
Allan.
Allan.
Huh one thing just occurred to me would Britain have more diplomatic clout to not get Frozen out of the Manhattan Project when it and Tube Alloy got merged like they did OTL given a more successful North Africa, Med and Far East? I mean right now the British are doing massively better so in theory they could really throw up a stink if they aren’t happy.
Derek Pullem
Donor
And this is the reason why the Jumbuck was designed. Not as a shining example of Commonwealth tank design but because artillerymen everywhere dislike brute force application of their art to remove awkward enemy positions. A Corps level saturation bombardment of a single bunker is so much more satisfying that threading a single 25 pdr shell through the firing slit
From "To whom it may concern." To "Dear Mr... I am writing to you today regarding,"
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The British weren’t so much frozen out of the Manhattan Project, there were numerous British/Commonwealth scientists/engineers involved in the project, including a substantial number of Canadians working in Canada. What basically happened was the Americans refused to allow these men to communicate with their home countries, even though their wages were being paid by their home nations. And when the war was over and they were dismissed from the project, their personal papers were stolen by the American authorities, and they were informed that if they passed on any information that they had learned to their own country, they would be arrested and imprisoned. It was only post war when Klaus Fuchs the naturalised German scientist returned to Britain, that he in addition to supplying the Soviets with information about both the British and American nuclear weapons programs. Handed over all his papers which he had basically smuggled out of America, to the British team working on the production of Britain’s first atomic weapon. To get a different result ITTL, to the one that occurred IOTL, you would have to have some major changes especially in the men appointed by the Americans to led the Manhattan Project, and for the British government to insist on regular communications with their staff including complete transfer of papers. Which I personally believe given just how trusting the British establishment was, is very unlikely to happen.
RR.
Butterflies. Thinking about the infantry updates. In Allan's wacky but brilliant "Ship Shape, Bristol Fashion" he very cleverly makes the Carl Gustav a game changer. It's all very well having time travelling F-14s but they break. The CG was a 1948 design and completely manufacturable and understandable for the time.
No time travelling ships (so far) in this story so no CG but Tanks are going to get heavier faster all around. Germans MUST have reacted to British armour and the Japanese will have to. OTL they didn't really face much armour until much later. Japan can't and won't be able to produce decent or significant tanks in this time frame. Even larger calibre AT Artillery is a stretch. They do have a lot of Infantry that like to get close up and personal. OTL , they never really developed any decent AT weapons, despite or perhaps because of their insane "luck" in improvising Kaenbin ( Soda bottles - I like to think Pocari Sweat - filled with a mix of Sand and Petrol) against the Russians. One Battalion of Japanese infantry fought off over 100 Tanks in the otherwise best possible Tank fighting conditions in 1939. It's a bonkers story and if you don't know it the account below is fantastic. HEAT rounds and Panzerfaust would be very effective. But Perhaps Germans won't develop it ITTL - was based an improved Bazooka captured in a theatre that now won't happen.
Range is close and lots of cover in SE Asia. With reinforcements slow from UK/AUS any significant dent in the mostly 2nd rate British tanks is the best Japan can hope for. Well that or realising they have actually been sitting on top of the one of world's biggest and easiest to drill Oilfields since 1932 in Manchuoko..... That's another alternate history though.
tanks-encyclopedia.com
Another huge buttefly is Siberia. If the Germans do better against USSR this summer, and IJA is desperatly looking for a win, they might be insane enough to attack USSR (again). They haven't make the progress in SE Asia but then they also haven't stationed a million troops all over the Pacific who sit there on tiny islands and starve (or hide in the jungle for 30 years waiting to appear in Disney movies).
RampRat right. No reason to think Tube Alloys timelines changes. No reason why Einstein et al would not have written to Roosevelt, also Denmark taken on schedule so Hisenberg should have visited his best friend Bohr. UK still doesn't have the resources to build a bomb at this stage so we can assume 2024 Oscars result in unchanged for now.
No time travelling ships (so far) in this story so no CG but Tanks are going to get heavier faster all around. Germans MUST have reacted to British armour and the Japanese will have to. OTL they didn't really face much armour until much later. Japan can't and won't be able to produce decent or significant tanks in this time frame. Even larger calibre AT Artillery is a stretch. They do have a lot of Infantry that like to get close up and personal. OTL , they never really developed any decent AT weapons, despite or perhaps because of their insane "luck" in improvising Kaenbin ( Soda bottles - I like to think Pocari Sweat - filled with a mix of Sand and Petrol) against the Russians. One Battalion of Japanese infantry fought off over 100 Tanks in the otherwise best possible Tank fighting conditions in 1939. It's a bonkers story and if you don't know it the account below is fantastic. HEAT rounds and Panzerfaust would be very effective. But Perhaps Germans won't develop it ITTL - was based an improved Bazooka captured in a theatre that now won't happen.
Range is close and lots of cover in SE Asia. With reinforcements slow from UK/AUS any significant dent in the mostly 2nd rate British tanks is the best Japan can hope for. Well that or realising they have actually been sitting on top of the one of world's biggest and easiest to drill Oilfields since 1932 in Manchuoko..... That's another alternate history though.
Kaenbin - Tank Encyclopedia
In 1939, the IJA won a battle against enemy tanks without a single one of their own. At the heart of this was a small bottle of soft drink.
tanks-encyclopedia.com
Another huge buttefly is Siberia. If the Germans do better against USSR this summer, and IJA is desperatly looking for a win, they might be insane enough to attack USSR (again). They haven't make the progress in SE Asia but then they also haven't stationed a million troops all over the Pacific who sit there on tiny islands and starve (or hide in the jungle for 30 years waiting to appear in Disney movies).
RampRat right. No reason to think Tube Alloys timelines changes. No reason why Einstein et al would not have written to Roosevelt, also Denmark taken on schedule so Hisenberg should have visited his best friend Bohr. UK still doesn't have the resources to build a bomb at this stage so we can assume 2024 Oscars result in unchanged for now.
The Carl Gustav itself isn't likely, but the Germans had some recoilless rifles on Crete IOTL. I can't remember if they did ITTL.
Last edited:
??
Two words of wisdom: Smoke. Shells.
For every direct fire gun. Even if you have to melt the HE out of two pounder and 37mm HE shells, and fill them yourself with smoke compound (well out in the jungle, by highly compensated volunteers).
With a smoke shell, you don't have to exactly hit the firing slit. With larger caliber, you don't even exactly need to know where the bunker is. Just smoke the area, then send infantry with hand grenades to loop around the sides. The bunker crew can't see anything, so their choice is to fire blindly and likely hit nothing, or just sit tight and be nervous. And if they keep firing, your infantry can close in on the bunker from the sides by following the sound.
And a further option if your supply sergeant is especially resourceful: white phosphorus "smoke" shells. Use as before, but now the smoke is choking and blinding, and everything near the shell impact is drizzled with burning WP, which even in soggy greener-than-green jungle is likely to cause additional damage and certainly will take out any enemy infantrymen guarding the bunker from positions outside.
Panzerfaust was inspired by the Germans' own 75mm recoilless fallshirmjager gun, but needed to be lighter; and the concept of MANPATs. Not specifically by bazooka or panzerschreck, except in the sense that those two weapons both were successful MANPATs and vastly more portable than the 75mm recoilless.
HEAT cannon rounds had existed since 1940. HEAT rifle grenades were used by the French and British in 1940, and the Germans in 1941. The Germans had hand-thrown HEAT grenades and flare-pistol HEAT rounds in 1942.
And panzerschreck wasn't even entirely inspired by bazooka. Panzerschreck was just a lightened, simplified version of raketenwerfer (puppchen), the lightweight AT rocket-gun developed for the fallshirmjagers and mountain troops. And raketenwerfer was in development considerably before the Germans knew about bazooka.
And, as to technology transfer from Germany to Japan: Japan already had HEAT devices mid-war. They just pole-mounted them as suicide weapons, instead of building them as rifle grenades or MANPATs.
Last edited:
allanpcameron
Donor
How on earth is somebody writing a piece of fiction meant to come up with an idea so looney tunes that it could be believable! I don't really know any Japanese people to ask them how in the name of their ancestors they came up with their war fighting ideas.
Allan