Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
They do but a mortar bomb is in the air for a fair while, they're not pinpoint accurate and they're aiming at a moving target.
Until we get the guided rounds like Merlin being developed in the 1980s, hitting a moving tank first time with a mortar (or even a stationary one) would be almost a miracle shot.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Once the armour on armoured vehicles had become immune to the rounds from anti-tank rifles, there was a desperate such by all the principal nations for a man portable effective anti-tank weapon. Unfortunately all the principal arms manufacturers were already involved in building and refining conventional weapons, and the job of designing man portable anti-tank weapons, was left in the hands of amateurs. Whereas normally the military authorities would have placed a design requirement with a number of experienced suppliers, calling for paper design proposals, and having examined them, in committee. Called for a number of prototypes, which could be tested and examined, to eliminate the obvious faults and problems, before either choosing one design to go ahead into limited production and basic testing. Or the military might decide to take bits of one design and use them with bits of another, and call for this mix to be produced and tested. Once the final design has been developed, produced and tested, there will be a limited production run, that is sent off for prolonged field tests, and user feedback. Then the branch that is to be the user, will assemble a team to formalise the training process, of first the instructor’s that are going to train the instructor’s that are going to train the final users. Plus oversee the production of training aids, and instructional books/etc. All this takes time and given that completely new principles were being introduced, shaped changes, rocket propulsion, recoilless weapons, and spigot mortars, you would be looking at three or more years before you had a usable weapon. Instead you had a number of hastily designed and assembled weapons, sometimes by amateur weapons designers, literally in sheds, ordered of the drawing board. Handed out to front line troops, without the extensive testing and training needed, and these men were told to get on with it.
A prime example of this was the British PIAT, which in skilled trained hands, was by the end of the war, a good if flawed weapon. Which did for all its numerous faults, have a number of advantages over the majority of other hand held man portable anti-tank weapons available at the time. It was a multi shot, multi purpose weapon, as it could be used in the direct fire role against armoured vehicles, and with the HE round enemy fortified positions, and in the indirect fire role as a short range mortar. Unlike all the other stand off anti-tank weapons developed, it didn’t give away the firers position when used, and could be used from under cover and enclosed positions. However the poor quality of the initial weapons, and total lack of training in their use, added with ineffective quality control of subsequent batches, and the basic rumours going the rounds of how crap a weapon it was. Meant that it retained a very poor reputation throughout its service life, and was quickly withdrawn from service after the war. It should be remembered that by the time that the worst of the faults of the PIAT been dealt with and the infantry were receiving adequate training, the initial need for the PIAT was gone, as the tactical situation was totally different. A British/Commonwealth infantry battalion was far better equipped and was not going to have to face a mass attack by German armoured forces, without massive support. They had in the 6 pounder anti-tank gun an organic weapon that could destroy all but the most heavily armoured German tanks at range, and could destroy even the Panthers and Tigers from the flank or rear. The odds were that a mass formation German armoured attack would suffer a major assault from the air by waves of RAF ground attack aircraft, followed by an overwhelming assault by the artillery, and the divisional tank formation would be in close support. It was only in close quarters fighting in built up areas that the PIAT would have a significant impact on the battle, and then only in the direct fire role against fortified positions, were armoured support wasn’t available. Post War and with the ever increasing threat from the Soviets, the British didn’t resurrect the PIAT, but bought in from the Swedes the Carl Gustaf as the man portable anti-tank weapon, while developing the first of their own anti-tank guided missiles.
RR.
A prime example of this was the British PIAT, which in skilled trained hands, was by the end of the war, a good if flawed weapon. Which did for all its numerous faults, have a number of advantages over the majority of other hand held man portable anti-tank weapons available at the time. It was a multi shot, multi purpose weapon, as it could be used in the direct fire role against armoured vehicles, and with the HE round enemy fortified positions, and in the indirect fire role as a short range mortar. Unlike all the other stand off anti-tank weapons developed, it didn’t give away the firers position when used, and could be used from under cover and enclosed positions. However the poor quality of the initial weapons, and total lack of training in their use, added with ineffective quality control of subsequent batches, and the basic rumours going the rounds of how crap a weapon it was. Meant that it retained a very poor reputation throughout its service life, and was quickly withdrawn from service after the war. It should be remembered that by the time that the worst of the faults of the PIAT been dealt with and the infantry were receiving adequate training, the initial need for the PIAT was gone, as the tactical situation was totally different. A British/Commonwealth infantry battalion was far better equipped and was not going to have to face a mass attack by German armoured forces, without massive support. They had in the 6 pounder anti-tank gun an organic weapon that could destroy all but the most heavily armoured German tanks at range, and could destroy even the Panthers and Tigers from the flank or rear. The odds were that a mass formation German armoured attack would suffer a major assault from the air by waves of RAF ground attack aircraft, followed by an overwhelming assault by the artillery, and the divisional tank formation would be in close support. It was only in close quarters fighting in built up areas that the PIAT would have a significant impact on the battle, and then only in the direct fire role against fortified positions, were armoured support wasn’t available. Post War and with the ever increasing threat from the Soviets, the British didn’t resurrect the PIAT, but bought in from the Swedes the Carl Gustaf as the man portable anti-tank weapon, while developing the first of their own anti-tank guided missiles.
RR.
There was also this - the Home Guard pike - and I am sure we can all guess whose idea this was - apparently not issued for fear of damaging morale
Major Cain who won a VC at Arnhem (for it seems being a total nut case) did engage SPGs using a 2" mortar (51mm for you hard of Imperials) in the 'direct fire mode' after his unit had run out of PIAT ammo - this is a feature and use of the light mortar which I did not know even existed.
But to your point this example is probably the exception to the rule
Aye.
Probably good for Jezza that he died before Jezza ditched his daughter for a younger replacement
I think it fair to say she found out and ditched him - but yes!
Was it? Thanks. I'm re-reading that at the moment too, but evidently haven't got that far yet.
Yeah, it’s right at the end just before the Japanese surrender. The river traffic is retreating jap forces trying to regroup.
You mean George MacDonald Fraser in his memoirs about Burma, Quartered Safe Out Here.
Great book, asides from the snark about the European Union on one page that jarred with me quite badly.
For dealing with bunkers (when tanks aren't available), what about a Universal Carrier mounting a Blacker Bombard?
I think she was still current wife at the time, but yeah, the Major was his father-in-law.
If I remember correctly, Jezza and his ex-wife only found out that her dad had been awarded the VC after he died. He never spoke about it while alive
The annoying thing about Jeremy bloody Clarkson is that when he can control himself and not be a ranting maniac who punches people and says stupid things, he can be a bloody good journalist who can tell a great historical tale.
Unfortunately he's better known for being a childish twit.
That sounds normal for that generation. My Grandfather must had the most amazing stories about the war, from the Retreat to Dunkirk, to becoming an officer, to landing on Gold at D+2 and having to find a) paper for the daily 2nd Army newsletter and b) Calvados for a VIP who came to his HQ once (possibly Churchill, possibly not), to the aftermath of the Falaise Gap, to... Belsen. He never really talked about what he'd seen, except the occasional snippet to Mum.
The Greatest Generation was also the Silent Generation.