I hope Sanna achieves her goals and leaves the war before the American entry.
I also hope the British Empire explodes.
I also hope the British Empire explodes.
Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars
- Thread starter RamscoopRaider
- Start date
I somewhat feel bad for Sanna. Half as evil and twice as smart as Mussolini but with two terrible "allies".
I'm very impressed with Sanna thus far, he's done better than Mussolini ever came close to and it really wasn't that much costlier than it probably would've been OTL but alas.....
Fascinating diplomacy in the far east! We'll see just how much Sanna just helped the axis. Japan will go to war with the USA, there's no stopping those maniacs. But since they didn't get embargoed, they'll have a lot more flexibility with more materials stockpiled, and hence be able to draw off more American forces. On the other hand, not having bases across all of Indochina will make it much harder for them to take Singapore and the East Indies.
So while the modern view is that Vichy France is a legitimate french republic, some history books still call it Vichy France instead of just France. Perhaps a recognition that at the time the legitimacy of Petain's government was still up in the air? Anyways, the USA sympathizing with Vichy is definitely going to fuel some Anglo-American animosity in both long and short term.
Heheheh, looks like how fair the deal from the technical mission was is a source of spirited debate between the shores of the pond!
So while the modern view is that Vichy France is a legitimate french republic, some history books still call it Vichy France instead of just France. Perhaps a recognition that at the time the legitimacy of Petain's government was still up in the air? Anyways, the USA sympathizing with Vichy is definitely going to fuel some Anglo-American animosity in both long and short term.
Heheheh, looks like how fair the deal from the technical mission was is a source of spirited debate between the shores of the pond!
So with both sides semi stabilized let’s assess everyone’s situation:
Germany- same amount of conquered land, same euphoria from rapid series of victories that were better than even optimist like Hitler hoped for, same hints of victory disease especially amongst party officials likely leading to arrogance in the near future. Military hardware is a bit hodgepodge with something’s more developed but others underdeveloped mainly tanks, airforce is not under Nazi ego management but a military focused leadership that with the Red Baron himself. To me it seems more geared to tactical roles and fighters likely greater aid during blitzkreigs and fighting against future allied bombers but even worse long range strategic bombing capabilities.
Britain- its darkest hour is even more lightless than OTL, Dunkirk went the same morale and rescue wise I think but the radar defenses are a year behind and the RAF command system is even more underdeveloped and available planes are weaker. Still no chance of an invasion but a bit more strength to the white peace party, Diplomatically is having some troubles forming the special relationship with the USA that Churchill and FDR made meaning it has to spend more hard currency and goodwill to get foreign aid. Damage from war even in victory leads to an even more messy end to the empire due to mistreating dominions
France- whupped and divided between a gov in exile in London and Vichy led mainland faction, I’m getting hints that despite the eventual defeat Vichy is viewed as a legitimate French government meaning the war goes on longer or diplomatic blunders occur leaving the London group viewed as a puppet.
Italy- as everyone is focusing on its doing better military wise and far more cunning diplomatically under Sanna, but I think it’s too intertwined with Germany by this point to realistically obtain a separate peace MAYBE if Britain wants to allievate its word in the future after a few more disasters it would offer Italy and JUST Italy a favorable peace leaving Sanna in a minefield, accept and be seen as an untrustworthy opportunist with the possibility of Germany thundering down the Alps to Rome so Hitler can have his revenge or stick it out until either victory or Germany being too weak to retaliate and sue for whatever peace the allies offer.
Russia- better and worse, better in that it conquered Finland so less of a frontline when Germany attacks, but more casualties and an occupying force leaving less soldiers, purges did a bit more damage to military leadership with Zhuckov being executed amongst others, less foreign aid likely and am I the only one wondering if open war with Japan is possible?
Japan- more extended in China due to better performance but still no closer to final victory, a bit more cunning in Southeast Asia to serve as a springboard for later advances but not able to build up as much there, has more time to stockpile resources and build up reserves, still on a collision course with America and the Western powers due to ideology and military arrogance, I think the Pacific war will be bloodier and maybe see American boots on Chinese soil but still the same outcome up to an including mushroom clouds. Also more willing to use biological weapons and likely against allies meaning this aspect of the Japanese military is more commonly known
America- don’t know much about this POTUS but less accommodating to Britain, less willing to jump into a Europe first war, paying a bit more attention to military advances but more reactive than proactive, Manahattan Project progressing but at a slower pace due to less urgency, likely to focus on Japan first.
Whew that was a lot to type on a phone. Basically underlying science has more time to develop but implementation is roughly the same just a year delayed to later start or 2 or 3 years behind do to less groundwork laid beforehand. Allies which also includes Russia can still win and will do so but in my mind will take 1 to 3 max years longer than OTL with more losses incurred. Chemical weapons will be used in both major theaters instead of against minor nations as well as biological agents even if unsuccessful the panic will last in the post war mindset.
International cooperation will be less powerful maybe instead of UN we get a stronger NATO centered around Western Hemisphere aligned with Britain against communists, European colonial empires are going to fall but with even less of an attempt at transferring power due to economic damage from war by roughly 1965. USSR has even less willingness to be friendly and with underdeveloped MAD hinderance will fall into conflict with America for one more war that will see atomic weapons used like envisioned in otl 50’s early 60’s primarily bombers with Russia getting semi glassed but USA emerging victorious
Thoughts?
Germany- same amount of conquered land, same euphoria from rapid series of victories that were better than even optimist like Hitler hoped for, same hints of victory disease especially amongst party officials likely leading to arrogance in the near future. Military hardware is a bit hodgepodge with something’s more developed but others underdeveloped mainly tanks, airforce is not under Nazi ego management but a military focused leadership that with the Red Baron himself. To me it seems more geared to tactical roles and fighters likely greater aid during blitzkreigs and fighting against future allied bombers but even worse long range strategic bombing capabilities.
Britain- its darkest hour is even more lightless than OTL, Dunkirk went the same morale and rescue wise I think but the radar defenses are a year behind and the RAF command system is even more underdeveloped and available planes are weaker. Still no chance of an invasion but a bit more strength to the white peace party, Diplomatically is having some troubles forming the special relationship with the USA that Churchill and FDR made meaning it has to spend more hard currency and goodwill to get foreign aid. Damage from war even in victory leads to an even more messy end to the empire due to mistreating dominions
France- whupped and divided between a gov in exile in London and Vichy led mainland faction, I’m getting hints that despite the eventual defeat Vichy is viewed as a legitimate French government meaning the war goes on longer or diplomatic blunders occur leaving the London group viewed as a puppet.
Italy- as everyone is focusing on its doing better military wise and far more cunning diplomatically under Sanna, but I think it’s too intertwined with Germany by this point to realistically obtain a separate peace MAYBE if Britain wants to allievate its word in the future after a few more disasters it would offer Italy and JUST Italy a favorable peace leaving Sanna in a minefield, accept and be seen as an untrustworthy opportunist with the possibility of Germany thundering down the Alps to Rome so Hitler can have his revenge or stick it out until either victory or Germany being too weak to retaliate and sue for whatever peace the allies offer.
Russia- better and worse, better in that it conquered Finland so less of a frontline when Germany attacks, but more casualties and an occupying force leaving less soldiers, purges did a bit more damage to military leadership with Zhuckov being executed amongst others, less foreign aid likely and am I the only one wondering if open war with Japan is possible?
Japan- more extended in China due to better performance but still no closer to final victory, a bit more cunning in Southeast Asia to serve as a springboard for later advances but not able to build up as much there, has more time to stockpile resources and build up reserves, still on a collision course with America and the Western powers due to ideology and military arrogance, I think the Pacific war will be bloodier and maybe see American boots on Chinese soil but still the same outcome up to an including mushroom clouds. Also more willing to use biological weapons and likely against allies meaning this aspect of the Japanese military is more commonly known
America- don’t know much about this POTUS but less accommodating to Britain, less willing to jump into a Europe first war, paying a bit more attention to military advances but more reactive than proactive, Manahattan Project progressing but at a slower pace due to less urgency, likely to focus on Japan first.
Whew that was a lot to type on a phone. Basically underlying science has more time to develop but implementation is roughly the same just a year delayed to later start or 2 or 3 years behind do to less groundwork laid beforehand. Allies which also includes Russia can still win and will do so but in my mind will take 1 to 3 max years longer than OTL with more losses incurred. Chemical weapons will be used in both major theaters instead of against minor nations as well as biological agents even if unsuccessful the panic will last in the post war mindset.
International cooperation will be less powerful maybe instead of UN we get a stronger NATO centered around Western Hemisphere aligned with Britain against communists, European colonial empires are going to fall but with even less of an attempt at transferring power due to economic damage from war by roughly 1965. USSR has even less willingness to be friendly and with underdeveloped MAD hinderance will fall into conflict with America for one more war that will see atomic weapons used like envisioned in otl 50’s early 60’s primarily bombers with Russia getting semi glassed but USA emerging victorious
Thoughts?
@HistLover you have made me consider that perhaps American boots on the ground in China and the possibility of the country getting split between the Nationalists and Communists like OTL only on the mainland, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Chinese Civil War runs from 1912-1965 or whatever year WW3 begins and it being a significant contributing factor 0:
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Sanna is just as evil as the Moose, his evil is simply better hidden or not commented on
He's also not actually smarter than the Moose, he just has a more cold blooded personality and his intelligence is better suited to running a country. Mussolini spoke/wrote four languages, self taught, translated German philosophy into Italian, was a novelist and biographer and literary critic, he wasn't stupid, his intelligence was simply not that suited to actually governing
Sanna is ultimately a plot device to explain why Britain is not available to provide an alterative to GRAND CENTRAL
With foreign financing for both sides I can easily see it continue in. Remember that technically OTL the war hasn't ever actually ended.
It's implied to be an American big-brain military operation that goes terribly wrong.
It might be a rehash of an operation that @RamscoopRaider hasn't elaborated further upon yet because it'd be spoiling the future.
From my reading Grand Central is an ITL operation of some kind. Till we learn this was a British op I was leaning to the scale of the cluster fuck hinted at this would be Mac's insane idea to take Rabual back from the Japanese instead of performing the invasion of Guadalcanal.
Is it? I thought Dunkirk was worse than OTL, ~250 thousand vs OTL's over 300 thousand rescued.
Good point on Italy's difficult diplomatic situation, hard to see how He (and his reputation) will untangle itself. Is it possible that Sanna could peace out in 1942 when the Wehrmacht is very committed in Russia, with Hitler grudgingly accepting it figuring that he can't spare enough panzer divisions to cleanly take Italy and that Sanna has mangled the British enough to make them a non-threat (while as usual underestimating the power of the USA)? I don't see the Allies accepting a late-war peace with Italy, unless somehow they end up in a situation where Germany is crumbling but Italy remains a fortress.
I can't remember the exact course of TTL's 2nd Sino Japanese War well, I know China evacuated less industry from Shanghai but otherwise what land has Japan captured that's ahead of OTL's schedule?
Anyways, nice attempt at analysis overall, thanks for the rundown. And good god you really typed that much on a phone?
Interesting take on Mussolini. A good reminder, it's easy to mistakenly think that being a polymath automatically will make you good at politics. But given he was a fascist dictator, was insufficient cold-bloodedness really a major fault of the Moose?
Wait wait you're saying the original reason you invented competent!Mussolini was not to force any change in Europe, but to force a specific course of action in the Pacific war? You magnificent bastard you, how much trouble did it cause when gluing the pacific war TL with the European war TL while making this? Anyways, given that British naval presence was relatively limited in the early stages of the Pacific war OTL I struggle to think of a way reducing their presence further would make room for the USN to faceplant that hard. Best guess is that Britain leaves the east indies out to dry, and America devotes its full energy to trying to prop them up- with catastrophic results for their navy.
Unless the US decided to put a BB or two into the Asiatic fleet TTL you can't get much worse results then what happened OTL.
How many significant changes would need to be portrayed in a map for it to be worthwhile? AFAIK the only major difference between the world map ITTL and OTL is the Soviet Union having all of Finland..... I think....