I found @Curtain Jerker pretty persuasive in his suggestion that 1950 is probably a more realistic point in time and that a present-day (2023) population of around 50-55 million so is probably fairly likely, especially since a poor, socially conservative country like the CSA will probably maintain high birth rates for longer (and the world in general sans both World Wars and their aftershocks likely maintains certain socially traditional mores for longer, anyways)In terms of the CSA needing 2/3rds ratification, you never fixed the "Treaty of Havana" en.wiki entry in the first thread that had the Treaty of Havana passing the USA Senate 27-21...
Good to know on Nobel. I'm not sure anyone in the New World gets considered for Peace any time soon...
Honestly, they'll *still* be suffering from the Demographic Disaster by 1930, I think at one point someone asked how long until the CSA again has as many people as it did in 1913, between the Loss of Arizona, the Loss of Texas, those killed in the war, the reduction in the number of slaves, the loss(?) of Kentucky and people just generally fleeing the country, I'm not honestly sure it will be back up the 1913 numbers until 1940!
And good points on the lack of secret ballot. Given how well that went in Texas, I'm sure they'll learn their lesson, (snark) I'm also sure that won't help Long get elected. (big snark)
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
Hey thanks.
You'll have high birth rates but immigration will be a trickle compared to OTL. Calling it a "trickle" is actually most likely underselling how few people will move to the CSA from 1916 to 1950 lol.
Well, when Brazil gets around to passing the Golden law and completely eliminating slavery, it might be easier as a slaveowner to continue it in an abandoned corner of the CSA, (Fort Myers, Florida?)
And could we end up with the fundamentalist LDS moving to the CSA where Polygamy *might* be viewed as more understandable given the lack of men?
I would find it absolutely fascinating if the combination of the GAW&CEW in the 1910s led to the situation where the 1910s were the decade with the most military casualties among recognized nation states.
I know that leaves several outs including civilian casualties and millions of dead between Narco-opium warlords in China, a Russian revolution or in an India independence war.
To be fair, besides Texas and a lesser extent Florida, there wasn’t much migration to the OTL CSA states until the 1960s at the earliest anyways (IIRC Birmingham and Atlanta were the same size for the longest time!)
One small consolation the CSA has is that their ITTL 1899-10 baby boom isn’t quite the generation being fed into the meatgrinder by Scott, Kernan, Dade et al. So there’s a large bulge of population that will come into babymaking age by the 1920s. That said, that’s just making up for lost time/men in the 1910s, but it’s not like there’s no dudes at all even though the 1885-99 “lost generation” will definitely see it that way.
Chinese opium warlords getting to 90s Colombia/early 10s Mexico numbers scaled up to China’s population would be a special kind of horror but also fit the direction we’re headed there
The 1899-1910 baby boom could be fed into the meatgrinder as things get desparate. (I know the Hitlerjugend doesn't translate to this situation, but you still are going to have 14-16 year olds who believe that the best way to protect their mothers from the Northern/Negro Hordes is to get into battle)
Having Birmingham be the one to grow would be interesting in an ATL.
Now I've got the image of all of South America being 90s Colombia writ large.
This is called “Bicentennial Man,” where I pivot from my CdM instinct to wank Latin America and instead screw it even harder than OTL
This may be a somewhat dark thought but I could see some of the Union occupation forces steering the negro guerrillas and Confederate stay behinds to destroy each other.
Solves a whole lot of problems for Philly to do it that way, macabre as it is
After the losses of the GAW I could see the US being more welcoming of the European huddled masses?!
Not just Europeans. I'm forgetting where it was exactly, but in the first thread I remember seeing something about an uptick in accepted Asian immigrants to the United States during the war?
Edit: Found the post.
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Indeed. This backfill is occurring during the war, too, to feed the factory output of American industry, an advantage the CSA most definitely does not have.
300k Chinese arriving over the course of three years of war is going to be a gigantic problem on the West Coast after the war, though.
Is there an uptick in migration from other regions during the war to help with industry or just Asia? I have this sudden image of a massive swell of French-Canadian and Italian immigrations in New England during the war which is really going to make the more traditional Liberals uncomfortable during and after the war!
Definitely plenty from elsewhere, particularly Italians and others common in the early 1900s wave. I’d imagine French-Canadians would fit in that
Mexico: I can explain–
Peru: Wait, you're getting a massive wank in terms of internal structuring and all I get is some territory?
Venezuela: You get to do better? All I got was to do as well!
Panama: You're not doing worse?
The Bourbon Restoration: The Confederate States 1915-33
"...presenting the new coalition regime in the Confederate Congress as nonpartisan and rather as a united front meant to bring a tangible peace about more effectively; the decisive losses at Nashville and Hilton Head put paid to such delusions, and suddenly even the small boost in morale from February's successful Occoquan Offensive was insufficient to improve the mood in Richmond. The damage had in part already been done, though; Martin's putsch had been meant to place all blame for the war's failures on an inept White House led by President Smith and his chief defender in Congress in Senator Tillman, and soon thereafter the two worst losses of the war had been inflicted upon the CSA. Red Scarves marched in the streets of Richmond daily demanding more money be spent on the war effort and harassing men, often wounded veterans, whom they encountered with the question of why they were not at the front; in an infamous incident, a cavalry officer named William Tilly scoffed, showed his shrapnel wounds on his left side and demanded to know why his accusers were themselves not fighting, an altercation that ended in Tilly's stabbing death.
The National Alliance for Victory that Martin had transactionally cobbled together to enhance his own power was not so much an ideological big tent as a complete circus, and Martin quickly set about placing cronies such as fellow Virginian Claude Swanson, Murphy Foster of Louisiana and Duncan Fletcher of Florida on key committees while handing out choice chairmanships to his new fellow travelers like Georgia's Thomas Hardwick. Questions of conscription and patronage had already helped trigger a political crisis in Texas and Martin was keen to avoid any further deterioration of the domestic unity, and so he knew that speed was of the essence. Smith, despite being profoundly weak, would be at Heritage House until February, but the Alliance for Victory needed to keep its foot on the neck of any attempt by the Tillmanite remnant to join forces with what remained of the NFLP or Socialist Parties at fight them back, and so Martin made his fateful decision to work to coopt the Red Scarves militia into the superstructure of the new coalition government by making James Vardaman's personalist paramilitary into the Alliance's paramilitary - Vardaman, a man about as far ideologically from Martin as it came, was his preferred choice to run for President. In return for allowing Martin a say on patronage appointments equal if not in excess of the power Tillman had held for over a decade, Vardaman would see the Bourbon wing of the Alliance stand down in his favor and allow the Red Scarves nearly free reign. It was a deal too good to pass up, and Vardaman quickly accepted, agreeing with Martin that the Confederacy needed a presumptive President in the wings ready to do battle in February.
More than a few Red Scarves felt betrayed by Vardaman's move to align with the despised planter class, but most of them were enthusiastic about the pugilistic hero of Confederate neo-populism rising to the top of the heap. It should be noted that both Vardaman and Martin were fairly certain that they could use the other; Vardaman was of the view that once in the Presidency he would simply purge his enemies and threaten others to get in line thanks to his small but devoted personal army of followers and rebuild the old Tillman machine in his image, whereas Martin thought Vardaman was "an upjumped cracker" whom he could make as much of a lame duck as Smith from the moment his hand would touch the Bible on February 22, 1916 and continue the slide into legislative supremacy in the Confederacy. For now, though, the two men continued to bury the hatchet as they had since their putsch against Tillman in January and Vardaman acquiesced to Martin's preferred choice of running mate, the Virginian Congressman George Patton, who like Vardaman had lost a son on the battlefields of Middle Tennessee and was regarded as a moderate Bourbon who had worked well with Democratic colleagues after the Great Schism of 1907.
The ticket compiled, Martin set about making sure that it faced no threats in any of the legislatures that his operation controlled and pushed rapidly for the absorption of wavering Democrats into a collection under his banner as quickly as he could. The rapid erosion of the Tillman machine at the federal level was starting to trickle downwards as the case for a united government under one party for the rest of the war began to appeal even to the strongest skeptics of traditional Bourbonism - that, and the threat of angry, oft-violent Red Scarves..."
- The Bourbon Restoration: The Confederate States 1915-33
The National Alliance for Victory that Martin had transactionally cobbled together to enhance his own power was not so much an ideological big tent as a complete circus, and Martin quickly set about placing cronies such as fellow Virginian Claude Swanson, Murphy Foster of Louisiana and Duncan Fletcher of Florida on key committees while handing out choice chairmanships to his new fellow travelers like Georgia's Thomas Hardwick. Questions of conscription and patronage had already helped trigger a political crisis in Texas and Martin was keen to avoid any further deterioration of the domestic unity, and so he knew that speed was of the essence. Smith, despite being profoundly weak, would be at Heritage House until February, but the Alliance for Victory needed to keep its foot on the neck of any attempt by the Tillmanite remnant to join forces with what remained of the NFLP or Socialist Parties at fight them back, and so Martin made his fateful decision to work to coopt the Red Scarves militia into the superstructure of the new coalition government by making James Vardaman's personalist paramilitary into the Alliance's paramilitary - Vardaman, a man about as far ideologically from Martin as it came, was his preferred choice to run for President. In return for allowing Martin a say on patronage appointments equal if not in excess of the power Tillman had held for over a decade, Vardaman would see the Bourbon wing of the Alliance stand down in his favor and allow the Red Scarves nearly free reign. It was a deal too good to pass up, and Vardaman quickly accepted, agreeing with Martin that the Confederacy needed a presumptive President in the wings ready to do battle in February.
More than a few Red Scarves felt betrayed by Vardaman's move to align with the despised planter class, but most of them were enthusiastic about the pugilistic hero of Confederate neo-populism rising to the top of the heap. It should be noted that both Vardaman and Martin were fairly certain that they could use the other; Vardaman was of the view that once in the Presidency he would simply purge his enemies and threaten others to get in line thanks to his small but devoted personal army of followers and rebuild the old Tillman machine in his image, whereas Martin thought Vardaman was "an upjumped cracker" whom he could make as much of a lame duck as Smith from the moment his hand would touch the Bible on February 22, 1916 and continue the slide into legislative supremacy in the Confederacy. For now, though, the two men continued to bury the hatchet as they had since their putsch against Tillman in January and Vardaman acquiesced to Martin's preferred choice of running mate, the Virginian Congressman George Patton, who like Vardaman had lost a son on the battlefields of Middle Tennessee and was regarded as a moderate Bourbon who had worked well with Democratic colleagues after the Great Schism of 1907.
The ticket compiled, Martin set about making sure that it faced no threats in any of the legislatures that his operation controlled and pushed rapidly for the absorption of wavering Democrats into a collection under his banner as quickly as he could. The rapid erosion of the Tillman machine at the federal level was starting to trickle downwards as the case for a united government under one party for the rest of the war began to appeal even to the strongest skeptics of traditional Bourbonism - that, and the threat of angry, oft-violent Red Scarves..."
- The Bourbon Restoration: The Confederate States 1915-33