Map Thread XXI

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What if the Magyars went east?

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flag of the Ugric S.S.R.

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Flag of Ugria - the seven arrows represent the 7 original tribes of the confederation, while the three rings represent unity, the three historical states (tribal kingdom->SSR->modern state), and the three turkic tribes which joined later.
 
What if the Magyars went east?

Ip8OZAg.png


D8hGhIt.png

flag of the Ugric S.S.R.

jL6ih0M.png

Flag of Ugria - the seven arrows represent the 7 original tribes of the confederation, while the three rings represent unity, the three historical states (tribal kingdom->SSR->modern state), and the three turkic tribes which joined later.
Love the idea. Butterflies were slaughtered, not a fan of the convergence but I love the flags.

Does the term Ugric not come from Ugra in northern Russia where the other Ugric languages are found? The only endonyms for the Magyars I know are, well, Magyar, and in romantic archaism and pseudohistory, occasionally Huns.
 
Love the idea. Butterflies were slaughtered, not a fan of the convergence but I love the flags.

Does the term Ugric not come from Ugra in northern Russia where the other Ugric languages are found? The only endonyms for the Magyars I know are, well, Magyar, and in romantic archaism and pseudohistory, occasionally Huns.
Ugry is the name for Hungarians in Russian, which has the same origin as polish Węgry. Origin of the name is thought to be from a time before they crossed the mountains into the Pannonian basin. I thought if an exonym were applied to them (á la OTL Hungary) then it would probably come from Russian.

Sorry if it is too convergent lol, I just wanted to quickly mock up an idea.
 
Its not quite transcotinental as there are some independent states separating Angola and Mozambique. Most of the work was done by Brazil which is still part of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves ITTL, as well as by native states under Portuguese suzerainty which were later fully integrated over a period of about sixty years.
Im sure Brazilians being shipped off to Portugal's wars would be tenable for the United Kingdom. /s
 
Im sure Brazilians being shipped off to Portugal's wars would be tenable for the United Kingdom. /s
Most elite Brazilians considered themselves Portuguese. In fact, it took Portugal angering the elites for them to assert a "Brazilian" identity that didn't exist before (As shown by the fact that technically Portuguese America was split into multiple provinces and had a different administrative region for the Amazonian region)
With the elite identifying themselves as Portuguese foremost they could easily - through education and cultural dominance - make the lower and middle-class see themselves as Portuguese too
 
Ugry is the name for Hungarians in Russian, which has the same origin as polish Węgry. Origin of the name is thought to be from a time before they crossed the mountains into the Pannonian basin. I thought if an exonym were applied to them (á la OTL Hungary) then it would probably come from Russian.

Sorry if it is too convergent lol, I just wanted to quickly mock up an idea.
Oh that's interesting I didn't know that. Ok I stand corrected, thanks for telling me!

No worries, it's your map, make it as convergent as you want, I get that not every project can have the level of detail needed to not be convergent with such an early POD. God knows I've made quite convergent content myself before.
 
Im sure Brazilians being shipped off to Portugal's wars would be tenable for the United Kingdom. /s
AIUI even OTL, Brazil was invested in Angola prior to independence and I think I have heard of some proposals where Angola would have been ceded to Brzail. I imagine that ITTL Brazil is just as invested in African expansion as Portugal is.
 
AIUI even OTL, Brazil was invested in Angola prior to independence and I think I have heard of some proposals where Angola would have been ceded to Brzail. I imagine that ITTL Brazil is just as invested in African expansion as Portugal is.
There were some factions in Angola that wanted to join Brazil when they declared independence. Still, you'd need to usurp the ultimately pro-Lisbon faction for that to happen whilst also throwing a middle finger at Britain's anti-slave trade policing. But there was no 'investment' in expansion in Africa. It was a complete money drain and an unforgiving environment. Brazil has much more pressing matters than a needless expansion in the interior when the local tribes are more than willing to import slaves on your behalf.

With the elite identifying themselves as Portuguese foremost they could easily - through education and cultural dominance - make the lower and middle-class see themselves as Portuguese too
This would take quite a bit of maneuvering and concessions by Lisbon to not piss off Rio. You'd probably also need to take Prince Pedro out of the picture.
 
This would take quite a bit of maneuvering and concessions by Lisbon to not piss off Rio. You'd probably also need to take Prince Pedro out of the picture
A quote that's relevant to this discussion:
Perhaps if King João VI dies earlier and Pedro ascends to the throne it could have been prevented. Pedro was very critical of the Cortes of 1820 and the subsequent constitution. In June 1822 he convoked a Brazilian assembly mainly to defy the Cortes in Lisbon. Many Brazilian deputies seemed to have been content with the union, however they did want autonomy as it would be impossible to govern Brazil from Lisbon. Many of the Portuguese deputies wanted a unified empire governed completely from Lisbon. Many Brazilian deputies balked at the imposition of commercial subservience to Lisbon and wanted their own assembly, however northern Brazil seemed to be content with direct rule from Lisbon. In July 1822, the Cortes decreed that if Pedro did not return to Portugal that he would forfeit his rights to succession and the Portuguese Cortes also ordered the dissolution of plans to form a Constituent Assembly in Brazil.

Interestingly enough the more conservative and moderate politicians in Portugal, such as the Count of Subserra were more willing to maintain the union under what would be a sort of "dual monarchy". He proposed a compromise wehre member of the royal family would represent the sovereign in Brazil and that the sovereign might even reside there at different times. Brazil would have its own assembly and be able to enter into commercial agreements with foreign powers. A common defence budget would include a joint navy, but two separate armies. Joint ministries would only govern defence and foreign affairs, and these would remain the prerogative of the Sovereign. Such an arrangement would have been much more palatable to the Brazilian elite, particularly as they were largely moderates wary of extremism.
So basically it was possible for Lisbon to please Brazil, as the most moderate and conservative sectors of politicians wanted to keep some sort of a "dual monarchy". It is difficult, especially taking into account Pedro's pro-autonomy stance, but it's definitely not impossible. Regardless I think the truth is that in this case the biggest danger facing the Crown would be a Portuguese pro-independence movement, as this system would basically result in Portugal being dominated economically and demographically by Brazil. (Yet it beats mentioning that way into the late 19th century, way after the Independence of Brazil, many Portuguese communities relied almost exclusively on remittances sent by Portuguese who emigrated to Brazil, showing the deep economic ties that the two countries had.)
Another quote that I also think applies to this discussion:
 
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@B_Munro's early work such as A Load of Great Powers
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and And Then There Were Ten have me thinking about the logical borders for superstates as is and directions of expansion (mostly overland)
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I made this timeline of kings and rulers of Kyngir in the earliest parts of my Tellurus timeline. The colors denote which city was in control at the time. Of note is the dominance of Nissar and Akwar in the middle part of the timeline, followed by the Narrakian Empire and the following Natuqi Interregnum, the Neo-Kyngiran Empire, the Surunian and Naplumian hegemonies, and finally the rise of the Kadimaran Empire. This timeline goes from -1000 AF to around 1500 AF. Any questions are welcome. Im sorry it's not a map im not sure exactly where else it should go.
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Inspired by a map I (thought) I saw in this thread, but perhaps saw somewhere else (?), I decided to try my hand at a "Christianity Went East" scenario. It's a WIP (planning on doing the whole world), but Europe is mostly done aside from a few colour adjustments. The basic premise here is that there are three major branches of Christianity; Oriental (or Eastern), Occidental (or Western/Roman), and Islamic (or Arabic). There are two things that occurred in this word that also occured in OTL; the Arabs exploded out of Arabia, and the Norse went a-conquering. Islamic Christianity is still Christianity, it just has a slightly different flavour to the others.

Germanic paganism is therefore divvied up likewise. "Pure" Norse paganism in Scandinavia and the French coast (heavily Scandinavian settled ITTL), Saxon paganism west of the Rhine, Anglish paganism in England and Wales (which I imagine as being "Norse lore but Anglo-Saxon words and names"), Insular/Irish paganism (Norse settlements in Ireland and the Isles), and Icelandic paganism (or Ásatrú if you prefer - basically a semi-organised variant brought about by the Icelandic tendency to coalesce and create cohesive administration systems to survive).

We also have two variations of Slavic paganism - the main one is "pure" Slavic paganism, and then in the Illyrian region there is a version influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy that is more tightly organised.

There are also scattered remnants of Greco-Roman religion around Europe and the Near East, as well as Tengriists in Ukraine and Bulgaria, and of course the two remaining forms of Celtic paganism (Insular/Gaelic and Continental/Gallic). Oh, and the purple-blue bits are Buddhists and the dark orange are Zoroastrians.

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Sort of, its more like an alternate universe that is 250 years behind schedule compared to the main universe, so there is no risk of destroying the modern day. Also, yeah, the colonial powers are going to find their influence suddenly cut off in the Americas.
The colonizers might be scared that New World colonization seems to inevitably end with independence.
 
What became of the area of OTL Hungary? Some sort of Slavic Pannonia/Avaria (with the Avars giving their name to the local Slavs the same way the Bulgars gave their name to the Slavic peoples they assimilated into IOTL)?
Yeah I didn't think about it beyond Slavs still being there. Avars having some influence would be cool.
 
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