Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Yes, looting is what the enemy does. When your men do it, it's liberating enemy supplies. It's important to get the context of things right.
That's when you liberate, sorry, requisition through non-official channels much needed supplies & equipment that the REMFs have decided are needed elsewhere, instead of the chronically under-supplied Commonwealth expeditionary force those supplies should have gone to. After all, there was a reason the rest of 8th Army and their American allies called 2nd NZ Division "Fryberg and his 40,000 Thieves".AKA, scrounging.
How long would it take to train such an Indian armoured brigade? The Japanese will attack before the convoy has left British waters. I suspect anything going spare will be sent East.
Derek Pullem
Donor
That would be the one that is already forming?
32nd Indian Armoured Division - Wikipedia
I can’t seem to find the reference, so maybe this was just my memory playing tricks on me.
Wasn’t it Darlan that said this?
The question is whether Anton triggers a French move to the allies or the other way round. The Germans hold over France is the French POWs and the occupation of the whole of France. They know that Anton will trigger France joining the allies. IOTL the initial fighting of France against the allies, with a past background of previous hard fighting against them in Syria, west Africa and Madagascar, gave the Germans a brief hope of France joining them. But that quickly ended thus Anton was triggered. I do not see Anton being triggered except by the French not resisting the allies. Unilaterally electing Case Anton by the axis would be throwing away their only trump card over the French.
Probably the other way around. The Nazis can make up any flimsy fabrication they like to justify going after France, including French colonies being attacked by the allies.
Whether Anton goes a head will depend on if the Vichy continues to be neutral in favour of the Axis. If Weygand jumps ship and drags French North Africa with him then it moves up the time table considerably.
The problem is ITTL we really don't know what he is thinking right now and how the various factors will pressure the way he will jump. He also needs to consider which way the civil administration and his military command could jump as well.
I think though with what's left of the Africa Korps approaching the border will force his hand with whatever he does.
The problem is ITTL we really don't know what he is thinking right now and how the various factors will pressure the way he will jump. He also needs to consider which way the civil administration and his military command could jump as well.
I think though with what's left of the Africa Korps approaching the border will force his hand with whatever he does.
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IMO the big thing in the USA. Britain isn't enough of a threat on its own to justify betraying the rest of France for, but once the USA is in the picture, it quite clearly becomes a matter of time for anyone they consider an enemy, so it would be a very good idea not to be considered an enemy.
I don't think we can judge what the Germans will do by OTL as the situation is now very different.
OTL
By December 1941
The British had been driven out of Greece and Crete in May.
Been driven back from west of Benghazi to Egypt and besieged in Tobruk.
Invaded and seized Syria and Lebanon
Were still fighting to raise the Siege of Tobruk.
During 1942
Lost Malaya and Burma
Had the IJN run riot in the India Ocean
Seized Madagascar
Suffered very heavy losses in the Atlantic.
Here
By December 1941
The British have been driven out of Greece after inflicting heavy losses on the Germans
Held Crete
Not invaded and seized Syria and Lebanon
Defeated the Italians and Germans in North Africa and forced the Italians to surrender
Are likely inflicting heavy losses on the Japanese invading Malaya and Burma
They are not in a defacto state of war with Vichy and Weygand is dithering about joining them.
All in all it looks much more likely in Berlin that the French Empire would join the British than in Otl. It already looks like the Germans are very close to moving against Vichy and America being drawn into the war could well tip the balance.
OTL
By December 1941
The British had been driven out of Greece and Crete in May.
Been driven back from west of Benghazi to Egypt and besieged in Tobruk.
Invaded and seized Syria and Lebanon
Were still fighting to raise the Siege of Tobruk.
During 1942
Lost Malaya and Burma
Had the IJN run riot in the India Ocean
Seized Madagascar
Suffered very heavy losses in the Atlantic.
Here
By December 1941
The British have been driven out of Greece after inflicting heavy losses on the Germans
Held Crete
Not invaded and seized Syria and Lebanon
Defeated the Italians and Germans in North Africa and forced the Italians to surrender
Are likely inflicting heavy losses on the Japanese invading Malaya and Burma
They are not in a defacto state of war with Vichy and Weygand is dithering about joining them.
All in all it looks much more likely in Berlin that the French Empire would join the British than in Otl. It already looks like the Germans are very close to moving against Vichy and America being drawn into the war could well tip the balance.
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Good point but Britian does have formations closer to the border of French North Africa, battle tested formations that have more heavy equipment than he does with Naval support and air power and considering Japan hasn't hit Peral yet this will factor into their calculations as well as the fact that the Levant is cut off as well.
True. But there's also the point that the British still (at this point) view him as neutral, rather than an enemy. Further, the French have the Mareth Line. So the British aren't an immediate threat to his own position. Once the Americans come in, that changes.
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Which has been stripped of its weapons and abandoned since the Fall of France.
I doubt it, the Armistice Commission observers in North Africa would have kept a close eye on it. Restoring the Mareth Line would be an indication that FNA is planning to join the Free French.