Map Thread XXI

[Whanztastic]

Courtesy of u/Sp4g00ti from Reddit: a Mexican-Philippine propaganda poster, commissioned during the War of the Nicaragua Canal.

Due to the Louisiana Territory never being sold to America, Mexico inherits a much larger amount of North American territory. Additionally, the Philippines revolt and break free from Spanish rule. However, they are weak and divided, so they turn to Mexico to protect them. Through the 1800s, Mexico takes the role of OTL America and becomes much richer due to trade with Asia. Meanwhile, the US loses the War of 1812, leading to an early Civil War in which the Confederacy wins.

Fast-forward to the time of this map’s making: France has occupied Nicaragua (part of this bigger Mexico) as they wish to build a canal there. Mexico retaliates; Britain chooses to join France. The CSA opportunistically invades across the Mississippi. Faced with this threat, Mexico commissions propaganda posters to convince the Filipino people to take up arms and sail across the sea to take on France, Britain, and the Confederacy. This map is an example of one of those posters and depicts a worst-case scenario, similar to OTL's over-exaggerated WWI propaganda posters. Notably, this shows a weak United States being carved up alongside the actual territory of Mexico and the Philippines (despite the USA not being in the war).

Red lines are pre-war borders. Italicized words in parentheses mark the “demands” of the Allied powers. Words in quotation are mostly sentences taken out of context to exaggerate the allied war aims.

So, I know this isn't the intent of this map, but the effort for multiple canal zones like that is crazy, especially the Costa Rican one which seems to go straight through a mountain range.

I really like the concept and absurdity of it, but it is also hard to figure what the ITTL situation is. It looks like New Amsterdam is an ally?

 

[Balkanized U.S.A]

It looks like New Amsterdam is an ally?

That is the rump US.

 

[B_Munro]

That is the rump US.

The fact of someone with "Balkanized USA" as a username pointing out a rump USA amuses me in a meta sort of way.

 

[Simreeve]

True, but the HRE was on a whole other level compared to France, Spain or England when it came to the scale and independence of its clerical holdings. [1] Clerically governed areas in a map of France in the 14th century are barely noticeable unless the map maker makes a real effort to highlight them: that's certainly not the case with the HRE!

[1] Out of curiosity, how were Prince-Bishops appointed in the HRE after 1648?

In areas where the Catholic forces had retained power, Prince-Bishops continued to be appointed by the Pope, primarily from families important either in the HRE as a whole (e.g. Hapsburg, Wittelsbach) or from families important in the local areas.
In areas where the Protestants had successfully taken control, either Protestant 'Administrators' were appointed (Lubeck, where this role was filled by members of the House of Holstein-Gottorp) or they were converted into secular fiefs instead and assigned to various Princes: Prince-Archbishops' former lands became Duchies (Magdeburg, which was given to the Electors of Brandenburg; Bremen, which initially was taken by the Kings of Sweden), and Prince-Bishops' lands became Principalities (e.g. Verden, which was attached to Bremen; Kammin [in Pomerania], Minden, & Halberstad, to Brandenburg;...). In the case of Osnabruck, where the population was split fairly evenly between Catholics and Lutherans, a compromise was agreed upon: Catholic bishops, appointed as usual, alternated with Protestant 'administrators' (who were also given the title of "Bishop") from the House of Hanover... The last holder of this office, before Napoleon and then the Congress of Vienna reorganised Germany was George III's second son, Frederick, Duke of York.

 

[spoonzandforkz]

Courtesy of u/Sp4g00ti from Reddit: a Mexican-Philippine propaganda poster, commissioned during the War of the Nicaragua Canal.

Due to the Louisiana Territory never being sold to America, Mexico inherits a much larger amount of North American territory. Additionally, the Philippines revolt and break free from Spanish rule. However, they are weak and divided, so they turn to Mexico to protect them. Through the 1800s, Mexico takes the role of OTL America and becomes much richer due to trade with Asia. Meanwhile, the US loses the War of 1812, leading to an early Civil War in which the Confederacy wins.

Fast-forward to the time of this map’s making: France has occupied Nicaragua (part of this bigger Mexico) as they wish to build a canal there. Mexico retaliates; Britain chooses to join France. The CSA opportunistically invades across the Mississippi. Faced with this threat, Mexico commissions propaganda posters to convince the Filipino people to take up arms and sail across the sea to take on France, Britain, and the Confederacy.

Hmm, yeah, cause that will defo work out. Young, up-jumped Philippines totally has the industrial and logisical capacity to naval invade Europe. Well, can't blame Mexico for at least trying - you need all the help you can get, and in any case at least they didn't backstab the Filipinos in their bid for independence, unlike one other nation I'm reminded of...

This map is an example of one of those posters and depicts a worst-case scenario, similar to OTL's over-exaggerated WWI propaganda posters.

I find it fascinating how Japan is shown alongside the Central Powers in dividing up the U.S., despite being very much on the side of the Entente.
Did Americans of the time think they were gonna pull an Italy?

 

[B_Munro]

Hmm, yeah, cause that will defo work out. Young, up-jumped Philippines totally has the industrial and logisical capacity to naval invade Europe. Well, can't blame Mexico for at least trying - you need all the help you can get, and in any case at least they didn't backstab the Filipinos in their bid for independence, unlike one other nation I'm reminded of...

I find it fascinating how Japan is shown alongside the Central Powers in dividing up the U.S., despite being very much on the side of the Entente.
Did Americans of the time think they were gonna pull an Italy?

Can't trust those insidious Orientals...

 

[htgriffin]

Catholic bishops, appointed as usual, alternated with Protestant 'administrators' (who were also given the title of "Bishop") from the House of Hanover... The last holder of this office, before Napoleon and then the Congress of Vienna reorganised Germany was George III's second son, Frederick, Duke of York.

It should be noted that Friedrich August was appointed to said see at the age of six....

... months.

 

[Fidel Llorente]

The general ideology of monarchism is unpopular with the masses. However, it is not difficult for a charismatic, popular dictator to successfully crown himself.

The issue is that monarchism isn’t even a niche ideology in China. Republicans, yes. That’s at least conceivable with the current Chinese zeitgeist. But monarchy? The Qing emperors are largely seen as a failure (or at least, not something to be aspired to).

Sure, it’s not impossible that the government succeeding CCP rule is a monarchy. It’s also not impossible for the next US president to be a muslim and for Saudi Arabia to reform to the point that it becomes the standard bearer for LGBT rights in the middle east. That doesn’t make either all that plausible.

The comparison to the Roman Empire is a good one I think. Now, I do believe the CCP will collapse due to the upcoming demographic issues. They're going to have a stagnant population and declining population like Japan but without the same level of development. This will cause major issues for the economy and if we look at Japan's behaviour, China will be very reluctant to let in immigrants. If we get another 2008-esque recession or god-forbid, a Second Great Depression, then we might see a breakdown in order in China.
A republican faction could win or perhaps a conservative counter-reaction against the CCP (although they are increasingly conservative, I don't think we can call the CCP as a whole conservative) would support a general who proclaims himself emperor. Perhaps one day we will see a Chinese pseudo-Napoleon (with or without the massive wars, preferably without).

Remember this map is set in 2120. So let's imagine a Chinese civil war in the 30s or 40s, that gives 80-90 years for a monarchy to arise.

 

[Al-Za’im]

Climate change will sadly ravage the Middle East. If Turkey dams the Euphrates and Tigris then Iraq and Syria would suffer greatly. The Kurds are an important wild-factor, however. After the undoubtable unrest and violence that will be caused by climate change (IIRC, the Syrian Civil War was prompted by a drought), democracy might lose support and people turn to the 'last Caliphs' for a strongman leadership.

Regarding China, once the CCP inevitably falls, all bets are off. Republicans, monarchists etc. all have a shot at taking power.

The Syrian Civil War was not caused by a drought.

Climate change does not necessarily entail the outbreak of violence either. Even if the situation in the Fertile Crescent was to deteriorate into chaos, the assumption that Turkey would benefit is problematic. Although Turkey may be a powerful force in the region, it is certainly not hegemonic. Turkey may enjoy a significant degree of cordiality and affinity with local actors and Islamist groups within MENA, nevertheless its geopolitical manoeuvres have proved incredibly controversial and thus deeply unpopular amongst much of the population. Even so, mutual interests and affinity do not translate to support for Turkish dominance, very few within Syria or Libya would ever endorse rule from Ankara. In the case of a massive humanitarian crisis, there is little reason to assume that Turkey would even have the capacity to assert permanent control over the Syrian interior south of Idlib, or that public consensus would shift to supporting foreign subjugation. A local-based strongman is far more amicable to the public then President-Sultan-Caliph Erdotturk.

One could cite Russian and Iranian presence in Syria (and Lebanon and Iraq in the case of Tehran) as a counter argument. Yet it must be considered that such foreign elements in Syria were deliberately co-opted by the Assad Regime in Syria as a means of preserving its own survival, and that we are still in relatively early days to see how the Syrian public will grow to perceive Russo-Iranian involvement within their affairs. Lebanon and Iraq are still independent nations with significant degree of autonomy over domestic affairs, at the most they could be described as client or perhaps satellite states of Iran. Clientage is quite different from the literal Neo-Ottoman expansion you are suggesting.

 

[FireCrispyHistory]

*begin recording* With a new decade, comes a new conflict. The year is 2060. The United States of America expand. In 2053, the USA had Louisiana join them. in 2055, the USA invaded Maryland and New England. 2059 saw their invasion of Virginia, and the annexation of Appalachia. As of 2060, they have taken the northern territory and the Virginian Peninsula. Also, they are in a sort of cold war between the ASA in the west. The Americas are lucky that there are buffer states, but diplomatic and militaristic pressure may change that. But the Americas is not where the main conflict of the decade is. But just some updates, I have a few minutes before they find me. Saudi Arabia pressured the UAE to recognize Saudi ownership of Emirian-claimed lands. Bavaria and Catalonia united with Europa, but now things get real. Morocco wanted to expand more into Iberia, so they launched an invasion, but this was an invasion of CSTO, and fellow CSTO members started to join the war. Morocco invaded more into Iberia, but had to redirect some troops to an invasion of and from Mali. They had also decided to get the support of Kenya, which was being invaded by South Sudan and Ethiopia already. Also, they achieved the support of Algeria, Tunisia, Yugoslavia, Libya, Egypt and Turkey. A fourth Great War is upon us, but I doubt that- what was that? Oh, shoot. YOU WILL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!!! *end recording*

Thanks to @Balkanized U.S.A for the original Worlda map for the Great War of 2050, as well as the idea for an American Cold War.View attachment 735423

Also, I love the fact that the map here doesn't show new zealand, despite an important battle being there.

 

[Fidel Llorente]

The Syrian Civil War was not caused by a drought.

Climate change does not necessarily entail the outbreak of violence either. Even if the situation in the Fertile Crescent was to deteriorate into chaos, the assumption that Turkey would benefit is problematic. Although Turkey may be a powerful force in the region, it is certainly not hegemonic. Turkey may enjoy a significant degree of cordiality and affinity with local actors and Islamist groups within MENA, nevertheless its geopolitical manoeuvres have proved incredibly controversial and thus deeply unpopular amongst much of the population. Even so, mutual interests and affinity do not translate to support for Turkish dominance, very few within Syria or Libya would ever endorse rule from Ankara. In the case of a massive humanitarian crisis, there is little reason to assume that Turkey would even have the capacity to assert permanent control over the Syrian interior south of Idlib, or that public consensus would shift to supporting foreign subjugation. A local-based strongman is far more amicable to the public then President-Sultan-Caliph Erdotturk.

One could cite Russian and Iranian presence in Syria (and Lebanon and Iraq in the case of Tehran) as a counter argument. Yet it must be considered that such foreign elements in Syria were deliberately co-opted by the Assad Regime in Syria as a means of preserving its own survival, and that we are still in relatively early days to see how the Syrian public will grow to perceive Russo-Iranian involvement within their affairs. Lebanon and Iraq are still independent nations with significant degree of autonomy over domestic affairs, at the most they could be described as client or perhaps satellite states of Iran. Clientage is quite different from the literal Neo-Ottoman expansion you are suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, you raise some very good points against Neo-Ottoman expansion. I myself am agnostic on the issue. I'm simply trying to play devil's advocate for Whatifalthist.
Regarding the Syrian Civil War, I'm going to quote Wikipedia
"This coincided with the most intense drought ever recorded in Syria, which lasted from 2006 to 2011 and resulted in widespread crop failure, an increase in food prices and a mass migration of farming families to urban centers.[147] This migration strained infrastructure already burdened by the influx of some 1.5 million refugees from the Iraq War.[148] The drought has been linked to anthropogenic global warming.[149][150][151] Adequate water supply continues to be an issue in the ongoing civil war and it is frequently the target of military action.[152]"

 

[Archienelson]

Had to make a second version of the Glow in the dartk version of my Oceanpunk map to incorporate the outline of a sunken Hyperboria and a reason as to why Greenland's Ice never melted during the great flood.

 

[Sean McKnight]

The latest in my Tzarkhanate series. An alternate history project where Ögedei Khan does not drink himself to death on the night of December 11, 1241, and lives another ten years.

1636 - The 20 Years War ends. The Duchy of Bavaria is dissolved, and peace briefly returns to the Russian Empire. Tzar Mikhail turns his attention to the Spanish.

1648- The 80 Years War ends after the Ruthenians join the Angevins and Scots against Spain and Portugal. Muscovite control of the Netherlands remains intact and the Wittelsbach dynasty is put on its back heels, never to recovers to its former position of power.

1644-1649 - Cromwell's Rebellion - A rash of English Orthodox fanatics led by one Oliver Cromwell lead a bloody war against the House of Stuart, seeking (among other things) to establish an independent Orthodox English Kingdom. The war ends with King Charles IV successfully retaking Southern England and Cromwell's public execution.

1653-1655 - The First Angevin Sea War - Fought entirely at sea, and started largely over trade disputes. The United Kingdom of England, France, and Ireland (commonly known as the United Kingdoms or simply the Angevins) successfully defeats the Ruthenian Navy. No significant territory changes hands.

1664 - 1666 - The Second Angevin Sea War - While attempting to end Ruthenian domination of global trade, the Angevins see their navy absolutely crushed by the Ruthenians. The Treaty of Leeds cedes to the Tzardom of Ruthenia all Angevin lands east of the Appalachians and South of the St. Lawrence.

1670 - 1672 - The final war between the Angevins and Ruthenia of the 17th century ends in officially an inconclusive peace at Leeds once again, however it firmly establishes The Ruthenian Empire as Europe's premier naval power.

1688 - The Glorious Revolution deposes James II and installs Mary II as Queen of the United Kingdom. She takes Louis XIV, the King of Burgundy as her husband and co-monarch, establishing the Bourbon dynasty's reign over the Angevins.

Original: https://www.deviantart.com/ynot1989/art/Tzarkhanate-The-Angevin-Sea-Wars-913750145

 

[Library of Alexandria]

View attachment 735645 And here it is! I may have gone a little overboard with the historical counties of the UK, but otherwise fairly proud of this one.

And here's the OTL worlda for 1900! You may have to squint to see some of the details, like the Russian Uyezds or the Counties of the UK as aforementioned, but otherwise this does feel like a big improvement.

 

[Lottie]

Turkey rebuilding the Ottoman Empire would have to contend with other states not being entirely in favour of being reduced to becoming Turkish satellites.

Perhaps it depends on how much 'rebuilt Ottoman Empire' would consist of. If it was only restoring the monarchy* that would be relatively likelier - there is a living descendant who is a 'legitimate' claim to the Ottoman throne.

*Without restoring khe OE's original borders.

 

[NeonHydroxide]

Kirghizstan - the Kingmaker of Eurasia

The Russian Civil War was the bloodiest war of the twentieth century, claiming millions of lives across a brutal nine years of fighting. It dealt the death blow to the largest land empire in history, and completely remade the balance of power in Eurasia.

The Kirghiz Republic started modestly, as a bid for local autonomy within the Russian Republic. After the November coup, however, their aims turned to independence. In May 1918, an accident of history provided the fledgling Kyrgyz government with the most powerful armed force in the country when infighting between White factions in Irkutsk blocked the retreat of the Czechoslovak Legion, leading its commander to embark on a new plan to return to its homeland south through Turkestan and British India. En route, the Czechoslovaks crushed both Red and White forces in Central Asia and helped train a professional Kirghiz National Army.

As the war in Russia devolved into a proxy conflict between Germany and the Entente powers, Kirghizstan solidified its independence by playing the powers off each other, accepting arms from the British while simultaneously coordinating with the Germans to back a Tatar rising in the Volga. When the war finally ended in stalemate, the fledgling Kirghiz Republic found itself in a critical middle position between German-aligned European Russia and the Japanese-controlled Siberia.

In the mid 20th century, its command of the upper Volga and its rich energy and mineral resources turned the country of steppe nomads into a wealthy and strong regional power. By the early 1980s, with the collapse of the German security architecture in Eastern Europe, Kirghizstan was positioning itself as the center of a new international order in Eurasia, influencing or fully controlling the politics of Turkestan, Siberia, the Cossack Republic, and Azerbaijan, and fighting and winning an active proxy war against the revanchist Moscow regime in the Volga Republic.

Does one ever really need an excuse for a 🅱️IG Kazakhstan?

 

[Steve Brinson]

Galveston (/ˈɡalβɛstʌn/ GALL-ves-tun) is a port city with county status at the mouth of Galveston Bay in the Texian Empire. Galveston had a population of 414,125 as of the 2024 Census; it is the 11th largest city in the Texian Empire, and was the largest city in Texas until 1900.

Originally inhabited by members of the Karankawa and Akokisa tribes, the first European settlements on Galveston Island were established in the 1810s by the pirates Louis-Michel Aury and Jean Lafitte. The Port of Galveston was established by the Mexican government in 1825, and served as the primary port of the Texas Navy during the First Texian Revolution, as well as briefly as the nation's capital. Shortly thereafter, the city was officially founded by Michel Menard.

Galveston grew extensively over the remainder of the 19th century, serving as the nation's primary port and its most industrialized city, as well as the home of its first and largest stock exchange. It became a major destination for urban immigrants from both Europe and the United States over the 1850s (particularly Catholic and Jewish immigrants displaced from the United States by nativist sentiment) and a major center of the textile industry; additionally, the Hongist Wars led to substantial Chinese immigration. The city was devastated by the Great Hurricane of 1862, which flooded much of the western part of the island; this led to the implementation of the Venetian Plan, which saw the construction of the Galveston Seawall and a system of canals to improve storm drainage and transportation...

 

[Jürgen]

In areas where the Catholic forces had retained power, Prince-Bishops continued to be appointed by the Pope, primarily from families important either in the HRE as a whole (e.g. Hapsburg, Wittelsbach) or from families important in the local areas.
In areas where the Protestants had successfully taken control, either Protestant 'Administrators' were appointed (Lubeck, where this role was filled by members of the House of Holstein-Gottorp) or they were converted into secular fiefs instead and assigned to various Princes: Prince-Archbishops' former lands became Duchies (Magdeburg, which was given to the Electors of Brandenburg; Bremen, which initially was taken by the Kings of Sweden), and Prince-Bishops' lands became Principalities (e.g. Verden, which was attached to Bremen; Kammin [in Pomerania], Minden, & Halberstad, to Brandenburg;...). In the case of Osnabruck, where the population was split fairly evenly between Catholics and Lutherans, a compromise was agreed upon: Catholic bishops, appointed as usual, alternated with Protestant 'administrators' (who were also given the title of "Bishop") from the House of Hanover... The last holder of this office, before Napoleon and then the Congress of Vienna reorganised Germany was George III's second son, Frederick, Duke of York.

While official the Pope elected the local prince-bishops, de facto they were elected by the local estates. With some exceptions like the Wittelbach bishops (later a single Habsburg) of Cologne the prince-bishops was elected among imperial knight class, this meant imperial knight families usual had two branches a Catholic and a Protestant one which regularly intermarried. The Protestant tended to be more fecund and served as soldier and administrators for the princes of the empire, while the Catholic ones often joined the clergy. This meant the Catholic lines regularly died out, but they got around this by adopting a member of the Protestant lines who simply converted. A very interesting fact about this was that the Catholic knights often married Protestant noblewomen and while the boys was raised Catholic the girl was raised in the religion of their mother, which meant the daughter could marry into the protestant branch of the family.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Had to make a second version of the Glow in the dartk version of my Oceanpunk map to incorporate the outline of a sunken Hyperboria and a reason as to why Greenland's Ice never melted during the great flood.

View attachment 735639

On a scale of 1 to 100, how much One Piece would be shoved into this?

 

[DaniCBP]

And here's the OTL worlda for 1900! You may have to squint to see some of the details, like the Russian Uyezds or the Counties of the UK as aforementioned, but otherwise this does feel like a big improvement.
View attachment 735646

What is happening in Arabia?