Ah interesting, so Charles VI doesn't ban Franco-English marriages as he did OTL?
Family Trees from My WIs
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
Ah interesting, so Charles VI doesn't ban Franco-English marriages as he did OTL?
I wasn't aware he did, after all, his daughters married Richard II and Henry V with no problem.
@material_boy will tell you more about that, but essentially the ban was byproduct of RII being deposed which pissed off Charles VI and Henry had to put up a lot of BS to be able to marry Catherine + trash French on battlefield, I wouldn't call it "with no problem"
Well, I wouldn't say no problem considering the wars fought in the run-up to those marriages! But yes, Charles refused to recognize the Lancastrian regime or license French marriages into it as a result. (Henry IV sought, at various times, French brides for each of his sons.)
Yeah, I think he's chosen a POD far enough back that you can handwave away a lot of stuff.
Brittany
@Brita @material_boy
With this tree, I wondered if Catherine d'Alençon being a favourite of Isabeau de Valois is going to have effects on Brittany's involvement in the whole Burgundian-Orléans feud to come. From what I can find on her, she doesn't SEEM to be a political player. OTL, when the Armagnacs captured her, her husband (Ludwig of Bavaria) refused to even ransom her. However, that Bernard d'Armagnac saw her as important enough to capture, and Henry V saw her as important enough to award her 20000 francs in damages via the treaty of Troyes plus have her "participate" (not sure in what sense) in both his marriage to Catherine de Valois and the baptism of Henry VI, would imply that she has a certain level of political clout that FAR exceeds the mere countship of Mortain in Normandie.
I'm not sure it will. As you say, she doesn't seem to have been politically active.
Maybe her role in the baptism was more symbolic, as Isabella of Bavaria's sister-in-law? As for her capture, she belonged to an important family, related to the French kings so I think ransoming her made sense.
That is possible. I guess I was imagining her as a proto-princesse de Lamballe crossed with a proto-Polignac.
Except the ransom wasn't paid by Ludwig. Catherine had to write to Emperor Sigmund to "force" him to pay it. AIUI nothing further was done about it. So it sort of backfired for the Armagnacs.
@Brita
For a match for Marguerite of Brittany (b.1379) is one to Rupert "Pipan" of the Palatinate out of the question? When he died, Charles V was negotiating a match for his daughter, Catherine, to Rupert "Pipan". The proposed match stood until Charles VI-Isabeau of Bavaria/Jean sans Peur-Margarethe of Holland's own matches in 1385, when she was engaged to Berri's son instead.
Could it be that Rupert marries Marguerite (who, since the second treaty of Guérande has no succession rights) as a sort of Franco-English proxy instead? Maybe around the late 1380s? Marguerite is Richard II's half-niece, but she also has ties to Flanders (through her paternal grandmother), to Luxembourg (through Richard) and France (maybe her brother replaces Rupert Pipan instead of the duc de Berri's son)?
For a match for Marguerite of Brittany (b.1379) is one to Rupert "Pipan" of the Palatinate out of the question? When he died, Charles V was negotiating a match for his daughter, Catherine, to Rupert "Pipan". The proposed match stood until Charles VI-Isabeau of Bavaria/Jean sans Peur-Margarethe of Holland's own matches in 1385, when she was engaged to Berri's son instead.
Could it be that Rupert marries Marguerite (who, since the second treaty of Guérande has no succession rights) as a sort of Franco-English proxy instead? Maybe around the late 1380s? Marguerite is Richard II's half-niece, but she also has ties to Flanders (through her paternal grandmother), to Luxembourg (through Richard) and France (maybe her brother replaces Rupert Pipan instead of the duc de Berri's son)?
Yes Marguerite's ties to Flanders and Luxembourg could make her an interesting match for Rupert. But I'm not sure a match between her brother and Catherine of France would be negociated. In your original tree, you said Catherine of Alençon's chosen for Jean V because she isn't "partisan" and because the English won't view that match as "too French" but if he marries the French king's daughter, even the youngest one, there's a risk it's going to affect Anglo-Breton relationships.
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Cool.
This is true. What if such a match is proposed (perhaps after the death of the comtesse de Penthièvre in 1384) as part of a "truce" between the English and French. Edward III and Charles V are both dead, Gaunt and Anjou are both off on respective adventures (Gaunt in Spain and Anjou in Naples).
Richard's already married to Anne of Bohemia (since 1382) and she may have recently had the only miscarriage of the marriage. Future Henry IV is also already married (since 1380), Edward of Norwich is available, but I don't know if he's in favour with Richard II yet (the French might regard him as an insult) and I'm not sure how they'd regard Roger Mortimer. While Jean V is Richard's nephew. France maybe offers the match to indicate their "dropping of support" for the Penthièvre claimant (trying to weasel their way into the Montforts). Richard II accepts as part of Charles VI's failure to take Bourbourg, Bergues and Gravelines.
I'm not sure if there was an ACTUAL peace treaty between France and England after the death of Charles VI, but perhaps a sort of "truce" could be agreed here? Course, by the time of Catherine de Valois' death (as OTL), nobody's thinking "peace". Catherine d'Alençon is a Capetian cadet so "minor" (not Berri-Anjou-Burgundy-Orléans) that nobody makes a fuss of it.
There'd be little (by the 80s) that France could do about the marriages of Jeanne's children to Charles d'Espagne (dead) and the duc d'Anjou, but her eldest son only married Clisson's daughter in 1387/88 (I think)[1]. Her son, Guy, died in '85, and Henri was in Italy with the Anjous (he was in their care for most of his life). The only children of hers that Jeanne had actual contact with were Henri and Marie, duchesse d'Anjou.
[1] I suspect that that was more because a) Clisson was the one to negotiate his release and b) because Clisson's wife was holding more than a few things (jewellery included) that belonged to Jeanne that Jeanne had had to pawn to cover outstanding loans, ergo the Clisson marriage was financially driven (i.e. to secure a return on his investments - namely securing the release of Jean de Blois) but also to ensure that those items (it wasn't just jewellery, there were estates included as well) would return to Jeanne's "heirs"). The remaining "pawns" that Jeanne had made to her son-in-law, Anjou (mostly land), and to the duc de Berri (jewellery) were never recovered.
Interesting, such a match will prevent the county of Loon( or Looz) passing to the Prince-Bishopric of Liège/Luik/Lüttich.
Though a Gelre match might also be interesting.
@Brita: in the 1350s (while her husband and eldest son were hostages in England), Jeanne was attempting to negotiate an English match for her son (with Margaret, Edward III's youngest daughter). Edward III was reluctant (not due to Montfortist sympathies inspired by the duke of Lancaster, but it seems Margaret's health was the issue). Jeanne rolled with this and suggested that Mary of Waltham take Margaret's place. In 1356 it was Edward III who proposed terms, although this was simply to "pressure" on Jean II of France.
Were there any English proxies Edward could've offered besides his daughters?
I don't know if it's a very plausible match but what about Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1350-1385)? She's Edward first cousin once removed and through the Bohun family, she's even descended from Duchess Constance's half-brother, so although it doesn't make her related to the Ducal family itself, it still gives her a connection with a duchess regnant, and I think Jeanne would definitely like the allusion.
Would it be ASB that, after his son is born that TTL Charles VII pulls a OTL Henri IV and has the Etats-Generaux (not sure if it would be them or who would have the authority to register such an act) pass an act declaring France and Navarre "one and indivisible". That even if a future king of France only has daughters, Navarre will still follow the French succession?
@isabella @Brita @material_boy @RedKing @VVD0D95
@isabella @Brita @material_boy @RedKing @VVD0D95
I think he could. After all, Jeanne de France should have succeeded her brother Jean I as Queen of Navarre in 1316 yet Jean was succeeded by his uncles Philip and Charles in both France and Navarre. Jeanne became Queen of Navarre in 1328 only. If Charles had had a son, I'm pretty sure she'd never have succeeded and Navarre would probably have followed the same succession rules as France.
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Inspired by this:
Excerpt from Rich Man, Poor Man, Vagabond, Thief: The Life and Times of the First Count of Guise:
When Louis, Count of Guise was born in 1416, after his father's death, it was hailed as a miracle, not only in France. Many had noted his parents' aversions to one another - his father preferring to spend his time in the company of one of the queen's ladies-in-waiting, La Belle Casinelle, and in his books, his mother preferring the company of other men - among whom was the count of Vertus, heir to the duke of Orleans - and if it hadn't been for his stillborn sister, many would've lent their ears to the claims that Louis was actually the son of Vertus. Which gave rise to many a pasquinade on the streets of Paris, given the emnity that the Burgundians and Orléans families had for one another.
Still, as it stood, Guise was born second in line to the French throne - after his cousin, the dauphin - and, since his uncle, John the Fearless had no sons, almost as close to the Burgundian inheritance. And he was duly considered for the hand of his mother's namesake, Marguerite of Burgundy the Younger, the eldest of John's children. And he was raised by his uncle after his mother's death.
By the time he was twenty-years-old, the count of Guise had lost his paramount place in the French succession, to the "three brats", the sons of Charles VII. To make matters worse, not only had John the Fearless' second marriage produced two sons - the comte de Charolais and his far more robust younger brother - but Marguerite of Burgundy had rejected her cousin's proposal of marriage. The rumourmongers - of which every age abounds - said that it had to do with his libertine lifestyle. Those rumourmongers were also quick to comment that Guise recalled - in behaviour, if not appearance - far more, the late duke of Orleans than his more studious father. The truth was that he had paid court to both Marguerite and her sister, Marie of Burgundy simultaneously, in many instances, going from the one to the other and using the same honeyed words just spoken to the sister. Unfortunately for him, the sisters had got wind of it and sent him packing him outright. After which, his hope had been to marry the sister of the queen of Navarre, but, perhaps knowing his cousin's intentions, Charles VII quickly married her off to the king of Naples instead. It was made all the more slighting since the queen's sister had said "she had no wish to marry a bastard".
And so it was that Guise turned to plotting. Dissatisfied with his "miniscule" maternal inheritance of the countship of Guise, he desired more land, more power. In retrospect, this is understandable, since from being the "second man in France" or a potential consort to the heiress of Burgundy, he was left a mere count....
@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Reyne
Excerpt from Rich Man, Poor Man, Vagabond, Thief: The Life and Times of the First Count of Guise:
When Louis, Count of Guise was born in 1416, after his father's death, it was hailed as a miracle, not only in France. Many had noted his parents' aversions to one another - his father preferring to spend his time in the company of one of the queen's ladies-in-waiting, La Belle Casinelle, and in his books, his mother preferring the company of other men - among whom was the count of Vertus, heir to the duke of Orleans - and if it hadn't been for his stillborn sister, many would've lent their ears to the claims that Louis was actually the son of Vertus. Which gave rise to many a pasquinade on the streets of Paris, given the emnity that the Burgundians and Orléans families had for one another.
Still, as it stood, Guise was born second in line to the French throne - after his cousin, the dauphin - and, since his uncle, John the Fearless had no sons, almost as close to the Burgundian inheritance. And he was duly considered for the hand of his mother's namesake, Marguerite of Burgundy the Younger, the eldest of John's children. And he was raised by his uncle after his mother's death.
By the time he was twenty-years-old, the count of Guise had lost his paramount place in the French succession, to the "three brats", the sons of Charles VII. To make matters worse, not only had John the Fearless' second marriage produced two sons - the comte de Charolais and his far more robust younger brother - but Marguerite of Burgundy had rejected her cousin's proposal of marriage. The rumourmongers - of which every age abounds - said that it had to do with his libertine lifestyle. Those rumourmongers were also quick to comment that Guise recalled - in behaviour, if not appearance - far more, the late duke of Orleans than his more studious father. The truth was that he had paid court to both Marguerite and her sister, Marie of Burgundy simultaneously, in many instances, going from the one to the other and using the same honeyed words just spoken to the sister. Unfortunately for him, the sisters had got wind of it and sent him packing him outright. After which, his hope had been to marry the sister of the queen of Navarre, but, perhaps knowing his cousin's intentions, Charles VII quickly married her off to the king of Naples instead. It was made all the more slighting since the queen's sister had said "she had no wish to marry a bastard".
And so it was that Guise turned to plotting. Dissatisfied with his "miniscule" maternal inheritance of the countship of Guise, he desired more land, more power. In retrospect, this is understandable, since from being the "second man in France" or a potential consort to the heiress of Burgundy, he was left a mere count....
@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Reyne
Not so soon. And you would need the institutions of Navarre voting for following the French succession in the style of what happened in Brittany