François I's had kids that were "Charles/Charlotte"; Karl V had a son called Juan and a daughter called Juana; Philippe le Bon had more than one bastard daughter with the same name IIRC; Louis XI had kids named Louis/Louise. Charles I's kids were Henry/Henrietta.
Family Trees from My WIs
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
Edward II's Marriage Plans for His Children Come-Off
Something different and inspired by my post from here
Edward II, King of England 1307-1343] (1284-1343) 1m: 1308 Isabelle of France (1295-1321[1]); 2m: 1324 ?
[1] dies giving birth to Joan of the Tower
[2] Isabella's chamber accounts list entries for purchases of pennyroyal, traditionally prescribed after a miscarriage
[3] he doesn't marry his cousin Constanza here, although given Edward II/III's other ties to Iberia/France, he probably is a bit leery of slighting Eleanor the same way he did Maria of Portugal OTL. Then again, Eleanor's OTL husband locked her up in a castle and called her leprous, so it might be a wash
[4] there is only one contemporary source (Robert of Reading) that mentions this child, and it calls her Joan. And that she was born at York. This may have been an error (confusing the birth year of the actual Joan) or there was a pregnancy that ended in miscarriage/stillbirth.
[5] there are two stories about why Edward III named his second son Lionel was a sort of "English bastardization" of Llewellyn; or the fact that his dad identified with "Sir Lionel" (and often rode incognito in tournaments under the alias), a knight of King Arthur's court.
@VVD0D95 @isabella @Diego @Kurt_Steiner @Emperor Lucas I @30PrincesAndAKing @iMercadier @ others
Edward II, King of England 1307-1343] (1284-1343) 1m: 1308 Isabelle of France (1295-1321[1]); 2m: 1324 ?
[1m.] Edward III, King of England [from 1343] (b.1312) m: 1325 Violante of Aragon (b.1310)
Isabella (b.1333)
Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1335)
Blanche (b.1340)
Lionel[5] (b.1342)
John (b.1343)
Mary (b.1345)
Katherine (b.1348)
[1m.] Miscarriage (1313[2])
[1m.] John, Earl of Cornwall (b.1316) m (I honestly have no idea where he'd marry)
[1m.] Eleanor (b.1318) m: 1333[3] Alfonso IX, King of Castile (b.1311)
Fernando (b.1335)
Isabel (1337)
Duarte (b.1338)
Costança (1339-1347)
Leonor (b.1340)
[1m.] Stillborn Daughter (1319[3])
[1m.] Joan (b.1321) m: 1335 Pedro IV, King of Aragon (b.1319)
Alfonso (1340-1349)
Teresa (b.1342)
Isabel (1344-1350)
Juana (b.1346)
Pedro (b.1347)
Duarte (1349)
Alfonso (b.1351)
Maria (1353-1355)
Leonor (b.1354)
[1] dies giving birth to Joan of the Tower
[2] Isabella's chamber accounts list entries for purchases of pennyroyal, traditionally prescribed after a miscarriage
[3] he doesn't marry his cousin Constanza here, although given Edward II/III's other ties to Iberia/France, he probably is a bit leery of slighting Eleanor the same way he did Maria of Portugal OTL. Then again, Eleanor's OTL husband locked her up in a castle and called her leprous, so it might be a wash
[4] there is only one contemporary source (Robert of Reading) that mentions this child, and it calls her Joan. And that she was born at York. This may have been an error (confusing the birth year of the actual Joan) or there was a pregnancy that ended in miscarriage/stillbirth.
[5] there are two stories about why Edward III named his second son Lionel was a sort of "English bastardization" of Llewellyn; or the fact that his dad identified with "Sir Lionel" (and often rode incognito in tournaments under the alias), a knight of King Arthur's court.
@VVD0D95 @isabella @Diego @Kurt_Steiner @Emperor Lucas I @30PrincesAndAKing @iMercadier @ others
Revisiting this period, inspired by a recent conversation with @HortenseMancini :
Edward III, King of England [1327-1369] (1312-1369[1]) m: 1328 Philippa of Hainaut (1311-1377)
[1] Edward III and Philippa switch death dates
[2] This marriage was proposed/negotiated OTL, AFAIK, Isabella refused
[3] Clearly Enrique de Trastamara is unsuccessful
[4] Born on the same day as Philippa of Hainaut, hence the name
[5] His father’s final illness delays his departure for Italy, so he dies en route to marry Violante Visconti instead of on the way home
[6] John of Gaunt’s ship- bound for Aquitaine with 400 men at arms- sinks
[7] OTL duchesse d’Anjou. Her father and brothers were in England as hostage with the duc d’Anjou, and her mother, Jeanne, Comtesse de Penthièvre, soi disant duchess of Brittany, was attempting to negotiate not only their release- even to the point of sending her daughter to England as a proxy- but was also willing to discuss marriage terms. Sadly, while Edward III was interested, Jean II’s arrival in England saw the idea thwarted. Anjou’s ship sinks en route back to France, meaning Jean II doesn’t go to England and Marie is in need of a new husband.
[8] Surviving daughter of Blanche of Lancaster’s older sister, Maud, and her husband, Wilhelm of Bavaria, Count of Holland. OTL the child was stillborn
@Jan Olbracht @isabella @Brita @Awkwardvulture @Cate13 @FalconHonour @kaiidth @King of Danes @Noblesse Oblige @The_Most_Happy @Zygmunt Stary @Parma @Valena @Diego @Kurt_Steiner @mcdnab @Nuraghe @Janprimus @Charles King and Martyr
Edward III, King of England [1327-1369] (1312-1369[1]) m: 1328 Philippa of Hainaut (1311-1377)
Edward IV, King of England [1369-1376] (1330-1376) m: 1361 Joan of Kent (1328-1385)
Edward, Prince of Wales (1365-1372)
Richard II, King of England (b.1367)
Isabella (1332-1382) m: 1349 Karl IV, Holy Roman Emperor[2] (1316-1378)
Karl Wenzel (b.1355)
Johann (b.1358)
Stillborn Son (1360)
Isabella (b.1363)
Philippa (1365-1371)
Anna (b.1367)
Joan (1335-1374) m: 1348 Pedro I, King of Castile (1334-1379[3])
Alfonso (1353-1370)
Maria (b.1355)
Duarte (1356-1371)
Stillborn Son (1358)
Juana (b.1361)
Felipe[4] I, King of Castile (b.1363)
Stillborn Son (1365)
Isabel (b.1368)
Pedro (b.1371)
William (1337)
Lionel, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368[5]) m: 1342 Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster (1332-1363)
Philippa (b.1355) m: 1369 Edmund, 3e Earl of March (b.1352)
John, Duke of Lancaster (1340-1366[6]) m: 1359 Blanche of Lancaster (b.1345)
Philippa (b.1360)
John (1362)
Elizabeth (b.1363)
Edward (1365)
John (1366)
Edmund, Duke of York (1341-1402) m: 1361 Marie de Blois[7] (1345-1404)
Joan (1361-1365)
Edward (b.1364)
Charles (b.1367)
Richard (1368-1371)
Isabella (b.1369)
Stillborn Son (1370)
Mary (b.1372)
Blanche (1342)
Mary (1344-1361) m: 1361 Jean V, Duke of Brittany (1339-1399)
Margaret (1346-1361)
William (1348)
Thomas, Duke of Gloucester (1355-1397) m: 1370 Elisabeth of Bavaria[8], Countess of Holland, Hainaut & Zeeland (b.1356)
Edward (1373-1380)
Isabella (b.1374)
Anne (b.1376)
Thomas I, Count of Holland, Hainaut & Zeeland (b.1377)
Philippa (b.1380)
[1] Edward III and Philippa switch death dates
[2] This marriage was proposed/negotiated OTL, AFAIK, Isabella refused
[3] Clearly Enrique de Trastamara is unsuccessful
[4] Born on the same day as Philippa of Hainaut, hence the name
[5] His father’s final illness delays his departure for Italy, so he dies en route to marry Violante Visconti instead of on the way home
[6] John of Gaunt’s ship- bound for Aquitaine with 400 men at arms- sinks
[7] OTL duchesse d’Anjou. Her father and brothers were in England as hostage with the duc d’Anjou, and her mother, Jeanne, Comtesse de Penthièvre, soi disant duchess of Brittany, was attempting to negotiate not only their release- even to the point of sending her daughter to England as a proxy- but was also willing to discuss marriage terms. Sadly, while Edward III was interested, Jean II’s arrival in England saw the idea thwarted. Anjou’s ship sinks en route back to France, meaning Jean II doesn’t go to England and Marie is in need of a new husband.
[8] Surviving daughter of Blanche of Lancaster’s older sister, Maud, and her husband, Wilhelm of Bavaria, Count of Holland. OTL the child was stillborn
@Jan Olbracht @isabella @Brita @Awkwardvulture @Cate13 @FalconHonour @kaiidth @King of Danes @Noblesse Oblige @The_Most_Happy @Zygmunt Stary @Parma @Valena @Diego @Kurt_Steiner @mcdnab @Nuraghe @Janprimus @Charles King and Martyr
The list is OK, but I'd say that it's more accurate to write Charles IV's children (and his own) name in Czech than in German (I assume that by not writing them in English you wanted to showcase their culture) - Charles IV considered himself Czech above all, core of his military forces were Czech and he even tried to promote usage of Czech in Germany (the cloister he founded in Germany made it obligatory for monks to know Czech, the source is his biography by Ferdinand Seidt), his change of name from Wenceslas (his birth name) to Charles was an sign of admiration towards Charles IV of France, and in general, calling Luxembourg dynasty German in anything beyond descent is XIXth century German nationalist hoax (if anything correct term would be Czecho-French with German descent), John of Luxembourg's (John the Blind's) first language was French, not German, his children were raised in France, but all of them were Czech before all (it's hardly surprising, considering how much more prestigious house of Premyslid was than house of Luxembourg), so
*Karel IV
Karel Vaclav (the first a should be long in Czech, but I don't have Czech diacritics on my computer so I am ignoring that)
Jan (as before, a should be long, written with stick looking thing above it)
Names of daughters seem to written in English (Philippa instead of German: "Philippine"), so I am leaving them out.
Re: the names fair enough. Have a similar problem with inserting the diacritics on my pc tho. Its why I general opt for Margarethe/Elisabeth instead of Marketa/Elzbieta or Wladyslaw is usually spelled without the stroke through the 'l's
Well it looks like Edward III has negotiated plenty of alliances, smart given his ambitions...
Building on this:
Edward III, King of England [1327-1369] (1312-1369[1]) m: 1328 Philippa of Hainaut (1311-1377)
Edward IV, King of England [1369-1376] (1330-1376) m: 1361 Joan of Kent (1328-1385)
Edward, Prince of Wales (1365-1372)
Richard II, King of England (b.1367) m: 1384 Juana of Navarre (b.1370)
Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1386)
Joan (1389-1393)
Richard (b.1391)
Isabella (b.1392)
Katherine (b.1396)
John (b.1398)
Isabella (1332-1382) m: 1349 Karl IV, Holy Roman Emperor[2] (1316-1378)
Karl Wenzel (b.1355) m: 1370[4] Elisabeth of Slavonia (b.1352)
children?
Joan (1335-1374) m: 1348 Pedro I, King of Castile (1334-1379[3])
William (1337)
Lionel, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368[5]) m: 1342 Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster (1332-1363)
Philippa (b.1355) m: 1369 Edmund, 3e Earl of March (b.1352)
John, Duke of Lancaster (1340-1366[6]) m: 1359 Blanche of Lancaster (b.1345)
Philippa (b.1360) m: 1385[5] Jean V, Duke of Brittany (1339-1399)
Marie (b.1385)
Stillborn Son (1387)
Philippa (b.1388)
Jean (1390-1397)
Arthur (b.1391)
Stillborn Daughter (1392)
Blanche (b.1394)
Richard (b.1395)
John (1362)
Elizabeth (b.1363)
Edward (1365)
John (1366)
[4] this match was proposed by Karl IV between OTL Wenzel and Elisabeth of Slavonia as well (despite the age difference)
[5] this match was on the cards OTL but was called off because of John of Gaunt's Castilian's adventure
@Jan Olbracht @isabella @Brita @Awkwardvulture @Cate13 @FalconHonour @kaiidth @King of Danes @Noblesse Oblige @The_Most_Happy @Zygmunt Stary @Parma @Valena @Diego @Kurt_Steiner @mcdnab @Nuraghe @Janprimus @Charles King and Martyr
So this is an idea that a friend and I were discussing, would appreciate any Danish members' inputs:
Frederik V, King of Denmark & Norway (1723-1766) m: 1743 Louisa of Great Britain (b.1724)
[2] our POD. Queen Louisa doesn't die in childbirth with a pinched umbilical hernia and outlives her husband. I can't find a source that mentions whether it was a boy or a girl child, so I made it a boy to lessen the pressure on Christian VII marrying a 13yo Sophia of Sweden
We couldn't decide if Frederik's daughters would marry as OTL or not, since OTL, her sister, Mary, moved to Denmark. While Mary likely does still go to Copenhagen, I doubt she (or her children) would be viewed in any sort of "surrogate mother" light as OTL.
@Jürgen @King of Danes @Atterdag @BlueFlowwer @Milites
Frederik V, King of Denmark & Norway (1723-1766) m: 1743 Louisa of Great Britain (b.1724)
Christian, Crown Prince of Denmark (1745-1747)
Sophia Magdalene (b.1746) m: 1762 George III, King of Great Britain and Ireland [1] (b.1738)
Vilhelmina Caroline (b.1747) m:
Christian VII, King of Denmark (b.1749) m: 1766 Sophia Albertina of Sweden (b.1753)
Lovisa (b.1750) m:
Frederik Georg, Prince of Denmark and Norway [2] (b.1751)
[1] George II and Fred of Hannover swap death dates. Fred is the one arranging his children's marriages[2] our POD. Queen Louisa doesn't die in childbirth with a pinched umbilical hernia and outlives her husband. I can't find a source that mentions whether it was a boy or a girl child, so I made it a boy to lessen the pressure on Christian VII marrying a 13yo Sophia of Sweden
We couldn't decide if Frederik's daughters would marry as OTL or not, since OTL, her sister, Mary, moved to Denmark. While Mary likely does still go to Copenhagen, I doubt she (or her children) would be viewed in any sort of "surrogate mother" light as OTL.
@Jürgen @King of Danes @Atterdag @BlueFlowwer @Milites
Many of the benefit of integrate the Hessian and Danish royal family still exist in TTL, and honestly having the family of a mid sized German state living in Copenhagen, especially if it can sold as keeping the family Protestant. The integration of the two family also gave the Danish royal family some loyal relatives to insert as stadholders in their different possessions.
Louisa living longer is certainly interesting. She might take a bigger interest in the health and education of her children and keep Frederick's worst excesses under control. There might be hope for Frederick not dying as young and for Christian VII being a bit more stable. An interesting thing that is not focussed on more, is that Frederick V (or at least Moltke who ruled Denmark through him) was actually, from what I gather, a fairly reform friendly king, while Christian was more under the thumb and more easily influenced by the conservative high aristocracy iirc (There is an old TL about a more stable Christian VII here which goes a bit more into it and might give you some ideas https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ightened-denmark-norway.476337/#post-19588101). A longer living Frederick V might be fairly good for Denmark, especially with Louisa by his side. It's ironic that our most alcoholic king who just left governing to his friend led Denmark through one of its most prosperous periods
As for the kids:
1. Sophia Magdalena to George III is a pretty good match personality wise, I think, and it might keep the Brits from destroying Denmark in the early 1800s if the Corsican still comes to power
2. Christian VII to Sophia Albertina is certainly an interesting idea. They might be fairly decently compatible personality wise but it could also lead to serious shenanigans. That being said, I'm unsure if the marriage would go through. It seems she might have been destined for a church career fairly early?
3. Frederik George would likely be called Frederik Christian Jørgen if we want to honour George II in Louisa's son. I think son nr. 1 and 2 in general were called Frederik Christian and/or Christian Frederik to keep up the inane Frederik/Christian alternation. Jørgen is the Danish version of George
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WI: HRE Ferdinand I was Sterile?
Based on this thread:
Philippe IV, Duke of Burgundy (1478-1511) m: 1498 Juana, Queen of Castile (1479-1555)
[1] born healthy, as insane as it sounds. Or perhaps "healthier" than OTL
[2] Felipe's two OTL bastards were called this
[3] Sigismund ducks the "first daughter is Jadwiga" tradition (with Bona Sforza's approval) by naming his first child after Jadwiga's daughter, Elisabeth Bonifacia.
[4] without Ferdinand and his wife's heroically sized progeny, François I takes up the 1528 offer to have his younger son (OTL duc d'Angoulême) be named as Zapolya's heir. Charles dutifully marries Anna Maria of Ansbach
[5] with only a single son and a childless brother, Karl V is forced to uphold the terms of the treaty of Venlo and marry Amalie of Cleves. Karl also remains emperor until his death due to Ferdinand's "weaker" position (no kids)
[6] proposed OTL, Juana refused. Given that Emanuele's OTL bride is married to Felipe II, stepfather to the king of Portugal is a better option than nothing (OTL Emanuele was supposed to get the governorship of the Netherlands as part of the marriage). Also, not only is Karl V the one arranging Juana's remarriage (OTL he'd abdicated by the time she was out of mourning), he's also the one recalling his sister from Portugal, leaving Juana as regent instead
[7] Hans survives his OTL death and is widely viewed in Europe as Karl V's successor (until the treaty of Venlo). Karl feels a bit bad for screwing his nephew out of a chance by Venlo, and sends Hans to England to court Mary (as opposition suitor to Philipp of Bavaria). Officially, Hans is there to discuss Anne of Cleves' return- either to the Rhineland and remarriage (to Hans, naturally, if Henry doesn't mind). Or her remarriage to Henry. Both Henry and Anne are a firm "no" on the remarriage matter. Hans plays the long game. He makes noises about how he approves of Henry's whole not getting along with the pope (or the Lutherans) thing. He makes noises about how he can relate to Henry feeling stabbed in the back by the emperor. And he assures Henry that "yes, your Majesty is the most virile, most manly king in Christendom"- although confiding afterwards that "it wasn't hard when the alternatives are a man with an oversized chin and a syphilitic with an oversized nose, one with an oversized belly and ego is no different". In short, Henry finds his Danish guest "perfectly charming". Even expressing a hope that "Prince Edward will grow into a man like him". Sadly, the latter doesn't happen. Edward dies in 1544 and, as a mark of respect, Karl V sends his nephew to personally pay his condolences.
Of course, Phil of Bavaria has left Mary high and dry with not a word...and Hans doesn't neglect his duties to- well- subtly trash talk the opposition. In short, by the end of the stay, Henry's decided that the words about Agrippa "kill him or make him family" are applicable here. So he does just that.
[8] son of Georg the Bearded of Saxony. He and his wife, Elisabeth of Hesse, switch death dates
[9] probably ASB'ish, but given the opposition of her brother-in-law, the duc de Mercoeur, to Kristina being regent OTL, I could see him forcing Maria out in a similar fashion. Likely, Karl V and Paris decide to "remove" her by marrying her off to the newly single duke of Cleves (who Karl still owes a bride per Venlo). Plus, given Maria's own "trauma" of being abandoned by her mom, I imagine she'll want to stick "as close to her kids" as possible, which rules out matches down in Italy or on the other side of Germany
@Jan Olbracht @eliamartin65 @isabella @Nuraghe @RedAquilla
Philippe IV, Duke of Burgundy (1478-1511) m: 1498 Juana, Queen of Castile (1479-1555)
Eleonore (1498-1558) 1m: 1519 Manuel, King of Portugal (1469-1521); 2m: 1530 François I, King of France (1494-1547)
[1m.] Carlos (1520-1521)
[1m.] Maria (1521-1577) 1m: 1536 François, Dauphin de Viennois (1518-1536); 2m: 1540 François I, Duke of Lorraine (1517-1546); 3m: 1548 Wilhelm, Duke of Cleves (b.1516 [9])
[2m.] Jean III, Duke of Lorraine (1542-1602)
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1544)
[2m.] Eleonore Philippine (b.1545)
[2m.] Marie Antoinette (b.1547)
[3m.] Maria Anna (b.1541)
[3m.] Karl Emanuel, Duke of Cleves (b.1553)
[3m.] Stillborn Son (1555)
[3m.] Magdalene Sibylle (b.1558)
[3m.] Stillborn Daughter (1560)
[3m.] Johann Philip, Archbishop of Cologne (b.1563)
Karl V, Holy Roman Emperor [1519-1558 [5]] (1500-1558) 1m: 1525 Isabel of Portugal (1503-1539); 2m: 1542 Amalie of Cleves [5] (1517-1586)
[1m.] Felipe II, King of Spain [1556-1598] (1527-1598) 1m: 1543 Maria Manuela of Portugal (1527-1545); 2m: 1546 Marguerite de Valois (b.1524)
[1m.] Carlos, Prince de los Asturias [1] (b.1545) m: 1561 Élisabeth de Valois (b.1545)
issue
[2m.] Juan (b.1547)
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1550)
[2m.] Isabel (1552-1615) m: 1566 Wilhelm I, Holy Roman Emperor [1564-1603], Lord of the Netherlands [1558-1603] (1547-1603)
[2m.] Margarita (1553-1586) m: 1570 Charles IX, King of France (b.1550)
[2m.] Francisco (1555-1556)
[2m.] Luis [2] (b.1559) m:
[2m.] Antonio [2] (b.1561)
[2m.] Juana (b.1564)
[1m.] Maria (1528-1603) m: 1543 Zygmunt II, King of Poland (1520-1572)
Isabella [3] (b.1546) m: 1565 Lajos III, King of Hungary (b.1543)
Zygmunt III Franciszek, King of Poland (b.1547) m: 1563 Catherine of Hungary (b.1547)
Stillborn Child (1549)
Anna (b.1552)
Jan (1554-1556)
Malgorzata (1556-1557)
Stillborn Son (1559)
Kazimierz (b.1561)
[1m.] Isabel (1529)
[1m.] Fernando (1530)
[1m.] Juana (1537-1573) 1m: 1552 João, Prince of Portugal (1537-1554); 2m: 1558 Emanuele Filiberto, Duke of Savoy [6] (1528-1580)
[1m.] Sebastião, King of Portugal (b.1554)
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1560)
[2m.] Carlo Eugenio, Duke of Savoy (b.1562)
[2m.] Francesco Saverio (b.1564)
[2m.] Beatrice (b.1565)
[2m.] Isabella (b.1567)
[1m.] Juan (1538)
[1m.] Fernando (1539)
[2m.] Karl (1544-1548)
[2m.] Wilhelm I, Holy Roman Emperor [1564-1603], Lord of the Netherlands [1558-1603] (1547-1603) m: 1566 Isabel of Spain (1552-1615)
Austrian Habsburgs
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1549)
[2m.] Amalie (b.1550) m:
[2m.] Anna (b.1552) m:
Isabella (1501-1526) m: 1515 Christian II, King of Denmark (1481-1559)
John II, King of England (1518-1557) m: 1545 Mary I, Queen of England [7] (1516-1560)
Oldenburgs of England
Maximilian (1519)
Philip (1519-1520)
Dorothea (1520-1580) 1m: 1535 Friedrich II, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1482-1546); 2m: 1548 Albrecht V, Duke of Bavaria (b.1528)
[2m.] Dorothea (b.1550)
[2m.] Isabella (b.1552)
[2m.] Stillborn Daughter (1554)
[2m.] Johann V, Duke of Bavaria (b.1556)
[2m.] Albrecht (b.1557)
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1559)
Kristina (1521-1590) 1m: 1534 Francesco II, Duke of Milan (1495-1535); 2m: 1538 Johann, Elector of Saxony (1498-1557 [8])
[2m.] Elisabeth (1539-1599)
[2m.] Stillborn Twin Daughters (1541)
[2m.] Johann Georg I, Elector of Saxony (b.1543)
[2m.] Christian Wilhelm (b.1546)
[2m.] Barbara (b.1548)
[2m.] Christine (b.1551)
Ferdinand, Holy Roman Emperor [1558-1564], King of Hungary & Bohemia [1526-1564] (1503-1564) m: 1521 Anna of Hungary (1503-1548)
Maria (1505-1558) m: 1522 Lajos II, King of Bohemia & Hungary (1506-1526)
Katharina (1507-1578) m: 1525 João III, King of Portugal (1502-1557)
[1] born healthy, as insane as it sounds. Or perhaps "healthier" than OTL
[2] Felipe's two OTL bastards were called this
[3] Sigismund ducks the "first daughter is Jadwiga" tradition (with Bona Sforza's approval) by naming his first child after Jadwiga's daughter, Elisabeth Bonifacia.
[4] without Ferdinand and his wife's heroically sized progeny, François I takes up the 1528 offer to have his younger son (OTL duc d'Angoulême) be named as Zapolya's heir. Charles dutifully marries Anna Maria of Ansbach
[5] with only a single son and a childless brother, Karl V is forced to uphold the terms of the treaty of Venlo and marry Amalie of Cleves. Karl also remains emperor until his death due to Ferdinand's "weaker" position (no kids)
[6] proposed OTL, Juana refused. Given that Emanuele's OTL bride is married to Felipe II, stepfather to the king of Portugal is a better option than nothing (OTL Emanuele was supposed to get the governorship of the Netherlands as part of the marriage). Also, not only is Karl V the one arranging Juana's remarriage (OTL he'd abdicated by the time she was out of mourning), he's also the one recalling his sister from Portugal, leaving Juana as regent instead
[7] Hans survives his OTL death and is widely viewed in Europe as Karl V's successor (until the treaty of Venlo). Karl feels a bit bad for screwing his nephew out of a chance by Venlo, and sends Hans to England to court Mary (as opposition suitor to Philipp of Bavaria). Officially, Hans is there to discuss Anne of Cleves' return- either to the Rhineland and remarriage (to Hans, naturally, if Henry doesn't mind). Or her remarriage to Henry. Both Henry and Anne are a firm "no" on the remarriage matter. Hans plays the long game. He makes noises about how he approves of Henry's whole not getting along with the pope (or the Lutherans) thing. He makes noises about how he can relate to Henry feeling stabbed in the back by the emperor. And he assures Henry that "yes, your Majesty is the most virile, most manly king in Christendom"- although confiding afterwards that "it wasn't hard when the alternatives are a man with an oversized chin and a syphilitic with an oversized nose, one with an oversized belly and ego is no different". In short, Henry finds his Danish guest "perfectly charming". Even expressing a hope that "Prince Edward will grow into a man like him". Sadly, the latter doesn't happen. Edward dies in 1544 and, as a mark of respect, Karl V sends his nephew to personally pay his condolences.
Of course, Phil of Bavaria has left Mary high and dry with not a word...and Hans doesn't neglect his duties to- well- subtly trash talk the opposition. In short, by the end of the stay, Henry's decided that the words about Agrippa "kill him or make him family" are applicable here. So he does just that.
[8] son of Georg the Bearded of Saxony. He and his wife, Elisabeth of Hesse, switch death dates
[9] probably ASB'ish, but given the opposition of her brother-in-law, the duc de Mercoeur, to Kristina being regent OTL, I could see him forcing Maria out in a similar fashion. Likely, Karl V and Paris decide to "remove" her by marrying her off to the newly single duke of Cleves (who Karl still owes a bride per Venlo). Plus, given Maria's own "trauma" of being abandoned by her mom, I imagine she'll want to stick "as close to her kids" as possible, which rules out matches down in Italy or on the other side of Germany
@Jan Olbracht @eliamartin65 @isabella @Nuraghe @RedAquilla
Two things do not work: either Eleanor marry Francis I or her daughter Maria married Francis jr. The only way in which both marriages can happen is them being celebrated at the same time. Still if Eleanor married Francis the only way in which Maria could end in Lorraine is her being married off there by her stepfather (as Karl was unable to get Maria’s custody OTL and that will not change ATL) and in none of this situations Maria would be abandoned by her mother (in OTL Eleanor was forced to leave behind her daughter as she do not wanted see her becoming a matrimonial pawn for Francis but here either they married at the same time or Eleanor still keep her daughter with her until Maria‘s marriage).
In any case a likely knock-out from Ferdinand and Anna being childless is Francis being more interested in Eleanor than OTL as she is the elder daughter and her eventual son would have a greater claim to the Netherlands than Hans of Denmark…
Another consequence of this scenario is who Isabella of Poland will most likely marry either Francis I instead of Eleanor OR Dauphin Francis (as both Francis marrying mother and daughter is extremely unlikely), I would say who the likeliest scenario see Eleanor marrying Francis at OTL but taking Maria with her (who will end in Lorraine in this way) but Dauphin Francis marrying Isabella of Poland. Else switch Maria and Kristina matches with the first in Milan and Saxony and the second in France/Lorraine/Cleves (as Karl V here would be likely pretty reluctant to send the only child of his elder sister in France when he has only one son and Ferdinand is childless plus there is nothing to prevent Eleanor and Kristina for marrying father and son in different times)
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I was thinking Bona Sforza pulls off her Gonzaga ambition here. Yes, she wanted a king for Isabella, but she also planned to leave her Italian holdings to her daughter. She's gonna have to choose. Course, it's not impossible that Isabella marries the dauphin and then the duke of Mantua- the man changed engagements more times than Karl V.
that makes sense
That also work, just the Dauphin need a different match than Maria so either you switch matches between Kristina and Maria or Isabella marry the Dauphin (and then in Mantua) while Maria marry directly in Lorraine. I will need to work on my own version of this POD…
Any ideas for where Gustaf III would marry here? IIRC the Swedish estates blocked a match with Philippine of Schwedt OTL for both he and Carl XIII. Would the lack of a Brunswick queen across the Sound make a Brunswick match possible? Maybe a Darmstadt one if the timing is right?
If you want chaos, Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel could be fun heh
that was actually the candidate I was considering. No Juliana of Brunswick in Copenhagen likely gives Sweden less reason to object to a Brunswick match
Queen Philippa Has Kids, Kalmar Survives?
Another Scandinavian themed tree (with a Lancastrian twist) :
Henry IV, King of England [1399-1413] (1367-1413) 1m: 1380 Mary de Bohun (1369-1394); 2m: 1403 Juana of Navarre (1368-1437)
Henry IV, King of England [1399-1413] (1367-1413) 1m: 1380 Mary de Bohun (1369-1394); 2m: 1403 Juana of Navarre (1368-1437)
[1m.] Sons (as OTL)
[1m.] Blanche (1392-1409) m: 1402 Ludwig III, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1378-1436)
Rupprecht IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (b.1406) m: 1425 Agnes of Burgundy (b.1407)
Rupprecht, Count Palatine of the Rhine (b.1426) m: 1449 Mary of Guelders (b.1432)
Philipp (b.1450)
Rupprecht (b.1451)
Maria (1453-1456)
Katharina (b.1456)
Ludwig (b.1458)
Heinrich (1429)
Margarethe (1431-1436)
Blanka (b.1435) m: 1449 James II, King of Scots (b.1432)
Margaret (b.1453)
Mary (b.1455)
James, Duke of Rothesay (b.1459)
Stillborn Daughter (1461)
David, Duke of Mar (b.1463)
Stillborn Child (1409)
[1m.] Philippa (1394-1342) m: 1406 Erik of Pomerania, King of Denmark, Sweden & Norway (1381-1430)
Stillborn Son (1415)
Margarethe (b.1417) m: 1435 Friedrich II, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1413)
Dorothea (b.1441)
Friedrich, Erbprinz of Brandenburg (b.1442)
Stillborn Son (1444)
Margarethe (b.1449)
Elisabeth (1452-1455)
Philippine (b.1453)
Johann (b.1457)
Stillborn Daughter (1420)
Erik VIII, King of Denmark, Sweden & Norway [from 1430] (b.1423) m: 1436 Helene of Cleves (b.1423)
Erik (1446-1449)
Johann, Duke of Lolland (b.1447)
Philippa (b.1450)
Helene (b.1452)
Stillborn Daughter (1454)
Adolph (b.1456)
Henrik (b.1459)
@isabella @eliamartin65 @Nuraghe @HortenseMancini @RedKing @Jürgen @King of Danes @Atterdag @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary
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