Thank you. Maybe @King of Danes or @Atterdag @von Adler will care to weigh in on whether we can see a successful/lasting Kalmar Union with a less haphazard succession?
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Family Trees from My WIs
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
Would be interesting to see what happens in Burgundy/Lotharingia given how Charles the Bold and the duke of Lorraine's OTL wives (Isabelle/Marie de Bourbon) won't exist here
We might, yeah, but I think there’s a better chance for it, if you keep Philippa alive longer. She was hugely popular in Sweden, and, from what I gather, she was almost as talented as Margrete I. Her being around perhaps prevents the Engelbrekt Rebellion, which means that there’s less of a precedent for rebelling against the union being seen as acceptable
and if- unlike her husband- her son were actually to be capable/popular...I imagine that could go a ways towards "cementing" the union, no?
Possibly yeah. A smoother start with a competent leader and no rebellion precedent goes a long way. Perhaps their son can also find a smoother solution for Slesvig-Holstein once duke Adolph snuffs it. That seems like a good moment to get rid of that gordian knot. With the Slesvig problem done, Erik VIII/Valdemar V can focus a bit more on Sweden’s issues
Well, Duke Adolph (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_VIII,_Count_of_Holstein) was the last Schauenburg duke of Slesvig-Holstein and the maternal uncle of otl’s Christian I. Otl he willed Slesvig-Holstein to Christian on the condition that they remained united and seperate from Denmark. Since Christian I won’t be king of Denmark here, Erik could claim Slesvig as its feudal liege, while Holstein would pass to the distant Schauenburg-Pinneberg branch, Saxe-Lauenburg (technically the nominal league of Holstein) or perhaps to Christian, even though Holstein would normally follow Salic law. Erik could pay off Christian for his claim to Slesvig and/or support him in obtaining Holstein. With Slesvig and Holstein seperated again, and with Slesvig controlled by the king again (either annexed, in a personal union or the Duke of Slesvig/Sønderjylland title bestowed on the heir-apparent), it won’t become the constant source of problems it was for Denmark otl, it won’t become more German than Danish, and Denmark would retain control over all of Jutland down to the Eider
Scotland in the Age of the Yorks
Scotland in the Age of the Yorks:
James IV, King of Scots [1488-1523] (1473-1523) 1m: 1485 Cecily of York (1469-1503); 2m: 1505 [1] Elisabeth of the Palatinate (1483-1522)
[2] James decides this match after his younger son dies. The main reason is how "thin" the Stewart line is looking.
[3] daughter of Charles VIII and Elizabeth of York
[4] daughter of Philipp of Cleves, Herr von Ravenstein and his TTL wife
[5] James is the first male-line grandson of a king of Scots born since the reign of King Robert II, he's granted the title of "earl of Galloway"
[6] son of Ludwig V and Sibylla of Bavaria, his mom dies in childbirth
[7] How does OTL Isabella of Austria still exist here? Simple. The dowry required to get Anne of York to be duchess of Burgundy/future empress would've likely been staggering. Edward IV, when he died, left a near empty treasury. Chances are good that it was a while before they could make up that - meaning Anne and Katherine likely got much lower matches than planned OTL.
[8] slight explanation here: when left with only male-line granddaughters, James V does not change the Succession Laws of Scotland by smashing King Robert's entail. Mostly because he knows that it will lead to nothing but civil war or an attempt by England to engage Christine to the prince of Wales. Instead, he takes a different approach. He summons the Scots parliament and has them acknowledge Christine as his heiress. He ties this acknowledgment to her marrying her to the duke of Fife's heir (i.e. the one who would inherit the throne after King James V's death anyway) to allay Scottish xenophobia. The lairds are perhaps not entirely happy about it, but James V is not the sort of man they want to piss off. Even when dead. So they grumble about it being "irregular" but most are just grateful that it's avoiding the civil war that will inevitably result if the king dies without such a proviso and his heiress is a daughter. The English might start getting ideas.
When the duke of Fife dies only leaving daughters, the Scots parliament "obliges" the crowned Christine to accept their candidate: the duke of Albany's heir. "Rather that witless fool than an English prick", in the words of a contemporary. They realize afterwards that they should've taken the English dick. Because they deliver into their queen's hands not only a husband, but also a stick she can use to hit them back into line with. Due to Fife dying with no male heirs, his lands return to the crown- much to the grumbling of his relatives who feel they didn't get quite as much out of the royal connection as they hoped. United with Albany's own lands, Christine becomes the Scottish monarch with the largest footprint since James I's reign. And that Albany is a decent soldier, rigidly loyal to his wife- he's got a whole family history of backstabbing the crown, so he knows that any misstep is going to be seized upon- and, once his son is born...here to stay, scares enough Scots lairds into open rebellion. Where Albany shows them just how "witless" and ruthless he is in defending both his wife and both the crown his son will one day wear.
[9] Johann's eldest son dies of a childhood illness, and at Emperor Maximilian's "suggestion", the negotiations for Isabella to marry the duke of Guelders are broken off and the marriage to Johann arranged instead
[10] daughters of Richard of Shrewsbury's namesake grandson, the 3e Duke of York. The 3e duke is married to King Richard III (son of Edward V)'s daughter. The duchess' nephew, the prince of Wales (and future Richard IV) is the prince of Wales they were concerned about marrying Christine. It's Richard IV's kids who marry Christine's.
@HortenseMancini @Victoria @eliamartin65 @isabella @RedKing @Nuraghe @King of Danes @The_Most_Happy @DrakeRlugia
James IV, King of Scots [1488-1523] (1473-1523) 1m: 1485 Cecily of York (1469-1503); 2m: 1505 [1] Elisabeth of the Palatinate (1483-1522)
[1m.] Margaret (1489-1544) m: 1505 [2] John, 2e Duke of Albany (b.1484)
3e Duke of Albany
James, 4e Duke of Albany (1532-1596) m: 1562 Christine, Queen of Scots (1537-1600)
[1m.] James V, King of Scots [1523-1550] (1491-1550) 1m: 1508 Marguerite de France [3] (1494-1512); 2m: 1515 Amalie of Cleves-Ravenstein [4] (1495-1561)
[1m.] Stillborn Son (1512)
[2m.] James, Earl of Galloway [5] (1518-1520)
[2m.] Cecily (1521-1564) m: 1538 Philipp II, Elector Palatine of the Rhine [6] (1517-1580)
Sibylle (1540-1546)
Ludwig (1541-1543)
Rupprecht IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1542-1591) m: 1560 Anne of York [10] (1541-1603)
Stillborn Daughter (1545)
Philipp, Count Palatine of Sponheim (1547-1599) m: Princess of Cleves
Elisabeth (1550-1609)
Cäcilie (1542-1612)
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1522)
[2m.] Robert, Duke of Rothesay (1524-1546) m: 1535 Kristina of Denmark, Sweden & Norway [7] (1521-1590)
Christina, Queen of Scots (1537-1600) 1m: 1550 Charles, Duke of Fife [8] (1529-1560); 2m: 1562 James, Duke of Albany [8] (1542-1596)
[1m.] Margaret (1554-1589) m: ?
[1m.] Stillborn Son (1556)
[1m.] Christine (1559-1591) m: England
[2m] James VI, King of Scots [from 1600] (b.1562) m: England
[2m.] Isabella (b.1563)
[2m.] Charles, Duke of Albany (b.1564)
[2m.] Christian, Duke of Fife (b.1569)
[2m.] Anne (b. 1573)
James, Earl of Galloway [5] (1538-1539)
Charles, Earl of Galloway (1540-1543)
Isabella (1542-1589) m:
Dorothea (1545-1600) m:
[2m.] Elizabeth (1527-1583)
[1m.] Mary (1494-1496)
[1m.] Isabella (1497-1557) m: 1513 Johann, Elector of Saxony [9] (1468-1532)
Ernst II, Elector of Saxony (1515-1569) m: 1535 Dorothea of Denmark, Sweden & Norway [7] (1520-1580)
Johann Christian, Elector of Saxony (1539-1599) m: 1558 Margaret of York [10] (1543-1606)
Stillborn Daughter (1541)
Isabella (1543-1586) m: ?
Dorothea (1544-1601)
Ernst Wilhelm, Duke of Coburg (1546-1588)
Stillborn Daughter (1548)
Christine (1551-1587)
Stillborn Daughter (1518)
Friedrich (1521-1543)
Johann Jakob, Duke of Weimar (1523-1586) m: ?
Elisabeth (1525-1577)
Stillborn Daughter (1528)
[1m.] Edward (1498-1500)
[1m.] Stillborn Son (1500)
[1m.] Cecily (1503-1549) m: ?
[2m.] Robert, Duke of Fife (1506-1541) m: 1522 ?
Charles, Duke of Fife (1529-1561) m: Christine, Queen of Scots (1537-1600)
[2m.] Annabella (1508-1553)
[1] Norman MacDougall mentions that James sought to extend Scots' influence in Europe, especially in the Rhineland and the Low Countries. The widowed landgravine of Hesse, sister of the pro-French Elector Palatine, Ludwig V. would be a coup. This would be before Ludwig marries Emperor Maximilian's niece, so he could still be viewed as a French proxy[2] James decides this match after his younger son dies. The main reason is how "thin" the Stewart line is looking.
[3] daughter of Charles VIII and Elizabeth of York
[4] daughter of Philipp of Cleves, Herr von Ravenstein and his TTL wife
[5] James is the first male-line grandson of a king of Scots born since the reign of King Robert II, he's granted the title of "earl of Galloway"
[6] son of Ludwig V and Sibylla of Bavaria, his mom dies in childbirth
[7] How does OTL Isabella of Austria still exist here? Simple. The dowry required to get Anne of York to be duchess of Burgundy/future empress would've likely been staggering. Edward IV, when he died, left a near empty treasury. Chances are good that it was a while before they could make up that - meaning Anne and Katherine likely got much lower matches than planned OTL.
[8] slight explanation here: when left with only male-line granddaughters, James V does not change the Succession Laws of Scotland by smashing King Robert's entail. Mostly because he knows that it will lead to nothing but civil war or an attempt by England to engage Christine to the prince of Wales. Instead, he takes a different approach. He summons the Scots parliament and has them acknowledge Christine as his heiress. He ties this acknowledgment to her marrying her to the duke of Fife's heir (i.e. the one who would inherit the throne after King James V's death anyway) to allay Scottish xenophobia. The lairds are perhaps not entirely happy about it, but James V is not the sort of man they want to piss off. Even when dead. So they grumble about it being "irregular" but most are just grateful that it's avoiding the civil war that will inevitably result if the king dies without such a proviso and his heiress is a daughter. The English might start getting ideas.
When the duke of Fife dies only leaving daughters, the Scots parliament "obliges" the crowned Christine to accept their candidate: the duke of Albany's heir. "Rather that witless fool than an English prick", in the words of a contemporary. They realize afterwards that they should've taken the English dick. Because they deliver into their queen's hands not only a husband, but also a stick she can use to hit them back into line with. Due to Fife dying with no male heirs, his lands return to the crown- much to the grumbling of his relatives who feel they didn't get quite as much out of the royal connection as they hoped. United with Albany's own lands, Christine becomes the Scottish monarch with the largest footprint since James I's reign. And that Albany is a decent soldier, rigidly loyal to his wife- he's got a whole family history of backstabbing the crown, so he knows that any misstep is going to be seized upon- and, once his son is born...here to stay, scares enough Scots lairds into open rebellion. Where Albany shows them just how "witless" and ruthless he is in defending both his wife and both the crown his son will one day wear.
[9] Johann's eldest son dies of a childhood illness, and at Emperor Maximilian's "suggestion", the negotiations for Isabella to marry the duke of Guelders are broken off and the marriage to Johann arranged instead
[10] daughters of Richard of Shrewsbury's namesake grandson, the 3e Duke of York. The 3e duke is married to King Richard III (son of Edward V)'s daughter. The duchess' nephew, the prince of Wales (and future Richard IV) is the prince of Wales they were concerned about marrying Christine. It's Richard IV's kids who marry Christine's.
@HortenseMancini @Victoria @eliamartin65 @isabella @RedKing @Nuraghe @King of Danes @The_Most_Happy @DrakeRlugia
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The Blooming White Rose
Edward V, King of England (1470-1527[1]) m: 1487 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (1477-1519)
Richard [4] III, King of England (1492-1552) m: 1510 Isabel of Portugal [6] (1496-1533)
Edward VI, King of England (1510-1556) m: 1530 Catherine de France [7] (1511-1569)
Edward (1532-1534)
Richard IV, King of England (b.1534) m: ?
Elizabeth (b.1536)
Thomas, Duke of Gloucester (b.1538) m: 1552 Barbara of Hesse (b.1536)
Antony, Duke of Suffolk (b.1539) m:
Katherine (b.1540)
Cecily (b.1542)
Elizabeth (1512-1570) m: 1534 John, 3e Duke of York (1514-1569)
John, Duke of Bedford, Earl of Essex (1513-1560) m: 1533 Anne, 7e Baroness Bourchier (1517-1571)
Katherine (1536-1574)
Thomas, Duke of Bedford (1538-1579)
Stillborn Daughter (1539)
Mary (1541-1545)
John, Cardinal, Archbishop of Canterbury (1544-1610)
Mary (1514-1515)
George, Duke of Kent (1515-1547) m: 1540 Katherine Grey [13] (1523-1568)
Stillborn Son (1540)
Katherine (1542-1586)
Anne (1545-1547)
Henry, Duke of Kent [14] (1547/1548-1585)
Stillborn Son (1516)
Elizabeth (1494-1537) m: 1509 João III, King of Portugal [6] (1493-1551)
Stillborn Son (1510)
Isabel (1512-1515)
Affonso, Prince of Portugal (1514-1534)
Duarte II, King of Portugal (1516-1579) m: 1532 Isabella of Savoy [8] (1519-1584)
f
Ana (1520-1586) m: 1535
Francisco, Duque de Coimbra (1521-1538)
Antony [5], Duke of Brittany (1495-1529) m: 1515 Margaret of Ross [9] (1500-1525)
Marguerite (1517-1582) m: 1535 Jean, Duc d'Anjou [7] (1516-1577)
Stillborn Son (1519)
Jean VII, Duke of Brittany (1522-1564) m: 1540 ?
Antoine (1524-1528)
Margaret (1497-1500)
Francis (1498-1499)
Anne (1501-1559) m: 1516 Karl V, Holy Roman Emperor, Duke of Burgundy (1500-1558)
Anne (1518-1569) m: 1538 Juan III, King of Spain [17] (1518-1571)
Philipp (1520-1522)
Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1523-1575) m: 1548 Anna of Hungary (1530-1582)
Margarethe (1525-1579) m:
Eleonore (1526-1598)
Charles III, Duke of Burgundy (1528-1580)
Stillborn Son (1530)
Elisabeth (1531-1587)
Philipp (1534-1552)
Maria (1536-1579)
Stillborn Daughter (1504)
Mary (1506-1574) m 1525 Istvan VI, King of Hungary [15] (1501-1553)
Szigmond II, King of Hungary & Bohemia (1527-1582)
Erszebet (1529-1568) m: 1544 Sigismund II Francis, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania [16] (1517-1568)
Anna (1530-1582) m: 1548 Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1523-1575)
Istvan, Duke of Transylvania (1532-1609)
Stillborn Daughter (1535)
György (1538-1548)
Richard, Duke of York & Norfolk (1473-1542 [2]) 1m: 1478 Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (1472-1494); 2m: 1496 Katherine Gordon [3] (1474-1534)[1m.] Elizabeth (1488-1540) m: 1503 John, 3e Earl of Worcester [10] (1489-1546)
Anne (1509-1547)
Edward, 4e Earl of Worcester (1511-1559)
Stillborn Son (1514)
Eleanor (1517-1523)
Lucy (1521-1588)
Thomas (1523-1588)
[1m.] Edward, Duke of York & Norfolk (1490-1550) m: 1511 Katherine Broughton [11] (1492-1518)
John, 3e Duke of York & Norfolk (1514-1569) m: 1535 Elizabeth of England (1512-1570)
Elizabeth (1534-1564)
Richard, 4e Duke of York & Norfolk (1535-1582) m: ?
Stillborn Daughter (1537)
Stillborn Son (1539)
Anne (1541-1603) m: 1560 Rupprecht IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1542-1591) [see tree above]
Margaret (1543-1606) m: 1558 Johann Christian, Elector of Saxony (1539-1599) [see tree above]
John, 5e Duke of York & Norfolk (1546-1614)
Katherine (1548-1550)
Stillborn Child (1516)
Anne (1519-1571)
Richard (1521-1525)
Katherine (1523-1581)
[1m.] Stillborn Daughter (1494)
[2m.] Edmund, Duke of Salisbury (1497-1557) m: 1516 Cecily, Countess of Salisbury [12] (1499-1540)
Dukes of Salisbury
[2m.] Stillborn Son (1498)
[2m.] Katherine (1503-1567) m: ?
[1] based on the death year ascribed to him in Leslau's theory about his survival.
[2] his half-brother, the Viscount Lisle made it this long, and Leslau's theory posits that he made it all the way to the reign of Queen Elizabeth! Which means he would've had his paternal grandmother's genes in longevity.
[3] this is one of those scandalous marriages that leaves Edward V spitting made because he was perhaps trying to arrange a decently rich bride for his brother. Not sure how exactly it happens, but let's go with it. The only reason Edward relents is because he has two sons by this point
[4] name chosen for a plethora of Richards in the family tree: his uncle, Dickon; his half-brother, Richard Grey, he and Anne's paternal grandpas,
[5] named for Antony Wydeville, Edward's surrogate father. The name choice raises some eyebrows, but most people just shrug it off as a "the boy's named for his mother" [Anne/Anne-tony]
[6] children of Isabel of Aragon and Affonso VI, King of Portugal
[7] children of Charles IX (son of Charles VIII and Elizabeth) and Catherine of Aragon
[8] daughter of Carlo III of Savoy and Bona Sforza. While the match seems low, at the time, Duarte is a second son
[9] elder daughter of the duke of Ross (James IV's brother) and Charlotte of Naples
[10] son of Edward Tiptoft, 2e Earl of Worcester (premier landowner in Wales), favourite of Edward and Lucy Neville [Lucy's OTL husband, Browne, was stepson/stepgrandson of Thomas Vaughn)
[11] genderbent John Broughton, son of John Broughton (richest non-peer in England) and Katherine de Vere (illegitimate daughter of the 13e earl of Oxford that he named his heiress OTL). Hopefully this explains why Richard III marries his daughter to guy. In addition to France, Austria, Spain, Portugal's heirs being chronologically challenged, a match between his daughter and York gives him an excuse to keep an eye on them
[12] heiress of Edward of Middleham (and thus sole heiress to Dickon of Gloucester's estate) and Elinor Percy (Edward V re-evaluates many of his father's shadier legal dealings). The match is arranged by Edward V to avoid something like her marrying the Earl of Warwick or the Marquess of Dorset's heir (Dorset's son marries Anne St. Leger and Warwick marries Dorset's daughter, as planned here, making those two families suspiciously rich and interconnected).
[13] daughter and heiress of Henry Grey, 4e Earl of Kent (her brother, father of the 5th-7th earls) dies in infancy
[14] common legend ascribes that while his father was dying in one room, his mother was giving birth in another. However, given that the title was considered abeyant at the duke's death (pending the birth of his latest child), that and the name choice (Henry's otherwise conspicuously absent in the Yorks over the last fifty years) suggests he was born after his father's death
[15] Istvan is the son of Wlad Bene, King of Hungary and Bohemia, and his third wife, Anne de France (eldest daughter of Charles VIII and Elizabeth of York). Mary is his second wife, his first, Karl V's sister, died in childbirth with their only child in 1523, and Mary's suit is pushed by her brother-in-law, Karl V, since he has no more sisters available
[16] son of Sigismund Stary and Catherine of Mecklenburg
[17] our original POD. Maria of Aragon is born male (Fernando VI). Juan of Aragon, Prince de los Asturias, dies as OTL. Maria married Giovanna, Dowager Queen of Naples shortly before that, so Margarethe of Austria is sent onto Savoy as OTL
@HortenseMancini @Victoria @eliamartin65 @isabella @RedKing @Nuraghe @King of Danes @The_Most_Happy @DrakeRlugia @Kennedy Forever @Brita @Jan Olbracht @Fehérvári @Dragonboy
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considering that when Ludwig IV died in Otl, he was preparing to clash with the troops of Charles of Bohemia ( recognized by the pope as anti-king since 1346 ) and from what we know would have found himself at a clear advantage in terms of numbers respect Charles, it means that at moment the Luxembourgs are weakened as previously happened to the Habsburgs, the Pope cannot find another serious internal opposition in the HRE, therefore he must necessarily come to terms ( given that Ludwig has many loyalists in Rome itself ( including Giacomo Sciarra Colonna , captain of the Roman people is the one who most supported his government in the Urbe ), and the Emperor made no secret of wanting to undertake a new campaign in Italy ( he had unfinished business in Tuscany, in particular he wanted to revive the situation of the Ghibellines in the region, mainly to help Pisa ), as well as playing with the idea of a Golden Bull that would simultaneously screw over his political opponents within the Reich and the Pope, strengthening his allies ( in particular looking at Italy ) certainly it must be considered that Philip VI of France was opposed to any possible dialogue between the imperial and papal courts, but it may be that a more stable government of Ludwig in the HRE could mean greater collaboration with Edward III ( imperial vicar at the time, it must be considered that there were plans to give him fiefdoms in the empire, taken from the French allies ) therefore it is very probable that upon his death the position of the Wittelsbachs would be significantly strengthened ( perhaps also avoided the civil war between his sons for the succession in Bavaria, which Charles IV cleverly exploited to weaken their possible opposition to his government ), so I can say that the Wittelsbachs will have a good chance of maintaining the throne, barring any internal reversals within the HRE, although I could see the Romans being more likely to support one of their own, such as Otl Ludwig VI of Bavaria ( aka the " Romanus " , since he was born there ) than his older brother, this could complicate things, in particular if we take into account that confirmation as emperor in Italy was considered valid ( as an alternative to the standard papal confirmation, in the Ghibelline ideology ) only if the Roman people acclaimed you as their sovereign
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but there is one thing that we still have to analyze carefully, namely the different evolution of the Italian Ghibelline movement compared to Otl, given that Ludwig IV and his sons will inevitably have a totally different policy from that of Charles IV, a starting from the time they will spend in the peninsula, where following their father's example they will make sure to earn the support of the local Ghibellines by remaining in the region for a long time ( Ludovico IV in Otl spent than 3 to 4 years in Italy, with at least 10 months in Rome itself , in stark contrast to Charles who stayed in the eternal city for just 1 week, diluted into 3 trips ) this in turn will also change the development of Roman politics itself, where actors like Cola di Rienzo, who in Otl were offended by the almost indifference of Charles, here they will look and seek imperial support for their projects ( if we think that historically the role of head of the local Ghibelline movement was delegated so to speak to actors such as the Viscontis, the Scaligeris, Giovanni di Vico etc ) it will be a notable difference
without forgetting that Cardinal Arbornoz's mission to bring the papal territories back under central control has not yet begun, given that he arrived in Otl in 1353, and that in Rome itself an assembly had been formed which elected 7 popular representatives called "Tribunes " to administer the city government, therefore this too will be subject to important differences, if we consider with the passage of time this assembly was going to represent / resume the classic ideas of the imperial - republican government, it is that usually they were the ones who validated the ascension of Emperor and the beginning of his government on the Palatine Hill ( complete with official minting of coins depicting the popular acclamation of the new Caesar, and subsequent procession along the most important monuments of the city along the lines of a classical triumph, which culminated than Imperial coronation in San Giovanni in Laterano, and creation of new Roman patricians and senators ) this particular methodology had so impressed first Henry VII and subsequently Ludwig IV that they wanted to export it ( with appropriate modifications ) to Germany too, in particular because it weakened the role of the papacy and the nobility in choosing the Emperor, so much so that it is said that Ludwig he wanted to create a small Palatine hill beyond the Alps, bringing together the various Roman monuments around his personal possessions in one place ( I honestly don't know how much of this was purely for propaganda purposes or whether it was a real idea, but I know that actually while he was planning his new trip to Italy, he had planned to bring something undefined as a gift to the Roman population )
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slightly curious, how do we think - I realize that that the POD is early enough to butterfly the Reformation entirely, but lets assume that Calvin and Knox are their OTL selves - Queen Christine would react in a situation parallel to OTL Mary, QoS? Because you can't tell me those Scots lairds were just hunky-dory with a "wee queen". Even if they don't want a civil war, I could imagine the English were being the English and backing whatever rebels come forward*.
Main difference between Christine and Mary would be that Christine doesn't have a more than decade long absence in France, and likely is trained to rule from the moment her grandfather nominates her as heir.
Their remark about Albany seems to suggest that at least one of them doesn't feel a woman can be monarch.
*even when England and Scotland were both Catholic, they were still squabbling, so I tend to regard the peace between Mary, QoS and Mary Tudor as the exception rather than the rule.
For all the Reign fans (in my defense, I've never watched more than the clips):
How it looks in drama:
Mary, Queen of Scots: the only crime that I care about is that I am a woman. A woman who wears a crown.
John Knox: a woman in power goes against nature itself. Men will never willingly bow to the weaker sex
Mary: then they will suffer greatly for it. *she is led away*
How it actually went down (TTL):
*in the first assembly of the Scots parliament after the duke of Fife's passing*
Christine, Queen of Scots: But ye speak of women in general?
Knox: *smugly* A woman in power goes against nature. Men will never willingly bow to the weaker sex
Duke of Albany: but you will kneel before your anointed queen, Master Knox.
*Albany goes down on one knee, behind his sword-point downward into the ground- in front of Christine*
*some murmurings in the hall* *then George, 7e Lord Seton goes down on one knee* *then George Gordon, 4e Earl of Huntley* *and several more Catholic lairds bend the knee* *the more minor Protestant lords- like Drummond, Kennedy, Livingston and Murray- start looking around nervously* *several scattered awkward coughs* *even fathers attempting to drag sons or sons dragging fathers from their knees* *but finally, there are only the heads of the Campbells, the Hamiltons and the Douglases who remain "unbent"*
Knox: *looks around at the now silent hall* *goes very pale* yer all cowards! Ye would defy God's will for a papist Jezebel like her?
Campbell: *stalks forward and backhands Knox* and thou art a shitting prophet! For were it not by such a Deborah's mercy, you should no longer have a tongue in your head to speak such filth!
Christine: *puts her hand out for Knox to kiss, a final offer of mercy* how many men would so kneel for ye if ye begged, Master Knox? To make a man rise is no hardship...a common whore can do that for the right price *several chuckles*
Knox: *about to speak*
Christine: true power comes not from being able to lift a sword or swing an axe. It comes from being able to spur many to be able to take up their arms in your defense. I warned ye to remember that an injured lioness [1] and an insulted woman are both things ye need fear.
Knox: *starts ranting* *practically foaming at the mouth*
Christine: since ye opine that there is better order amongst the Tartars than in a kingdom under a woman [2]...we charge ye to investigate and report back what ye have found [3]. I'm sure it will be as compelling a work as the Monst'rous Regiment [4]. *she motions for the guards to come forward and escort Knox out*
[1] reference to the lion of Scotland, rather than any sort of bravery on Christine's part- she doesn't go all Queen Elizabeth and lead the troops.
[2] one of Knox's quainter lines that saw Elizabeth expel him from England
[3] i.e. I don't very much care where you go, just so long as it isn't Scotland.
[4] irony being that this work was almost universally condemned by Europe's scholarly elite- both Protestant (even Calvin, who wasn't known for being a feminist, thought Knox was chancing his arm) and Catholic. Knox was a case of an echo chamber ego OTL since when Mary, QoS challenged him on what they were saying, he admitted "but I have not read him [the critics]. If anyhath sufficiently improved (disproved) my reasons, and established his contrary propositions with as evident testimonies as I have done mine, I have thought, and yet think, myself alone to be more able to sustain the things affirmed in my work, than any ten in Europe shall be able to confute it."
He also told Mary she was an idiot ("conscience requireth knowledge, madam, and I fear that knowledge ye have none". And he struck her on the head, per letter from Thomas Randolph to William Cecil: . "He [Knox] knocked so hardly upon her head that he made her to weep. Well you know, there be of that sex that will do that, as well for anger as for grief!"
@HortenseMancini @Victoria @isabella @FalconHonour @The_Most_Happy @eliamartin65 @Kennedy Forever
it is actually true if we think that things are going more or less like Otl, after Mary's government we necessarily have Elisabeth, she knows very well how unstable her government is at home at the moment, especially with a majority of Catholics still very strong and with important foreign supporters behind them, will do everything possible to weaken potential enemies who for the moment represent a real and immediate threat, such as Cristina, therefore it is highly probable that he will finance a political-religious revolt in Scotland, which however could also backfire, given that in this case there was not an absence of royal power that lasted a decade as in Otl, which saw the strengthening of the nobility of the kingdom and at the same time the disintegration of one of the pillars of the royal authority ( the church, which was exploited by the monarch as a secondary channel to exercise his will, thus circumventing the opposition of the nobility, was also well distributed within his domains, so as to facilitate the collection of information ) therefore it is probable that this maneuver will turn into yet another conflict between England and Scotland, which would see the latter supported by France, while the former would find itself alone, I doubt that Philip will come to the aid of those who a moment earlier supported both militarily and economically the Dutch rebels, he would rather take advantage of it to recover ground in Burgundy and then subsequently intervene to prevent France from emerging too strengthened ( even if indirectly ), but only after Lizzie has taken a sound beating that convinces her for a while to abandon the idea of interfering in the affairs of other rulers
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Except England doesn't have three queen-regnants one-after-the-other at the same time
Ehm Kellan, Sorry but I can't understand what you want to tell me ?, are you asking me for an explanation about my comment or something, because if it's the first thing, I can easily do it for you, well, mine was in progression starting from the death of Mary I obviously, so as Otl there is Elizabeth, but at the same time the vast majority of her people and papists would prefer the government of her cousin, the current Queen of Scots ( still quite similar to Otl ) this is where the real differences start, where Cristina, unlike Mary QoS, has a stronger control over the kingdom, therefore she is more capable of responding to Lizzie's plots
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there's no Elizabeth, no Mary Tudor, no Tudor trashcan fire in Christine's world- her paternal grandfather is the son of Cecily of York. And that grandpa's first wife was a daughter of Elizabeth of York and Charles VIII of France- see the accompanying Yorkist tree (above) for how far down in the English succession Christine would be (contrasted to OTL Mary, QoS).
What ? 😧, ehm, in fact something didn't sit right with me 😅, Oophs my mistake😳, I was fooled by the fact that Calvino and Knox had existed anyway as Otl, sorry 😇 ( I'm probably too tired from this morning's horseriding lesson )
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