Family Trees from My WIs

[HortenseMancini]

For all the Reign fans (in my defense, I've never watched more than the clips):

How it looks in drama:
Mary, Queen of Scots: the only crime that I care about is that I am a woman. A woman who wears a crown.
John Knox: a woman in power goes against nature itself. Men will never willingly bow to the weaker sex
Mary: then they will suffer greatly for it. *she is led away*

How it actually went down (TTL):

*in the first assembly of the Scots parliament after the duke of Fife's passing*
Christine, Queen of Scots: But ye speak of women in general?
Knox: *smugly* A woman in power goes against nature. Men will never willingly bow to the weaker sex
Duke of Albany: but you will kneel before your anointed queen, Master Knox.
*Albany goes down on one knee, behind his sword-point downward into the ground- in front of Christine*
*some murmurings in the hall* *then George, 7e Lord Seton goes down on one knee* *then George Gordon, 4e Earl of Huntley* *and several more Catholic lairds bend the knee* *the more minor Protestant lords- like Drummond, Kennedy, Livingston and Murray- start looking around nervously* *several scattered awkward coughs* *even fathers attempting to drag sons or sons dragging fathers from their knees* *but finally, there are only the heads of the Campbells, the Hamiltons and the Douglases who remain "unbent"*
Knox: *looks around at the now silent hall* *goes very pale* yer all cowards! Ye would defy God's will for a papist Jezebel like her?
Campbell: *stalks forward and backhands Knox* and thou art a shitting prophet! For were it not by such a Deborah's mercy, you should no longer have a tongue in your head to speak such filth!
Christine: *puts her hand out for Knox to kiss, a final offer of mercy* how many men would so kneel for ye if ye begged, Master Knox? To make a man rise is no hardship...a common whore can do that for the right price *several chuckles*
Knox: *about to speak*
Christine: true power comes not from being able to lift a sword or swing an axe. It comes from being able to spur many to be able to take up their arms in your defense. I warned ye to remember that an injured lioness [1] and an insulted woman are both things ye need fear.
Knox: *starts ranting* *practically foaming at the mouth*
Christine: since ye opine that there is better order amongst the Tartars than in a kingdom under a woman [2]...we charge ye to investigate and report back what ye have found [3]. I'm sure it will be as compelling a work as the Monst'rous Regiment [4]. *she motions for the guards to come forward and escort Knox out*

[1] reference to the lion of Scotland, rather than any sort of bravery on Christine's part- she doesn't go all Queen Elizabeth and lead the troops.
[2] one of Knox's quainter lines that saw Elizabeth expel him from England
[3] i.e. I don't very much care where you go, just so long as it isn't Scotland.
[4] irony being that this work was almost universally condemned by Europe's scholarly elite- both Protestant (even Calvin, who wasn't known for being a feminist, thought Knox was chancing his arm) and Catholic. Knox was a case of an echo chamber ego OTL since when Mary, QoS challenged him on what they were saying, he admitted "but I have not read him [the critics]. If anyhath sufficiently improved (disproved) my reasons, and established his contrary propositions with as evident testimonies as I have done mine, I have thought, and yet think, myself alone to be more able to sustain the things affirmed in my work, than any ten in Europe shall be able to confute it."
He also told Mary she was an idiot ("conscience requireth knowledge, madam, and I fear that knowledge ye have none". And he struck her on the head, per letter from Thomas Randolph to William Cecil: . "He [Knox] knocked so hardly upon her head that he made her to weep. Well you know, there be of that sex that will do that, as well for anger as for grief!"

@HortenseMancini @Victoria @isabella @FalconHonour @The_Most_Happy @eliamartin65 @Kennedy Forever

Damn ok I kinda love Christine

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

What ? 😧, ehm, in fact something didn't sit right with me 😅, Oophs my mistake😳, I was fooled by the fact that Calvino and Knox had existed anyway as Otl, sorry 😇 ( I'm probably too tired from this morning's riding lesson )

it's okay, it was a bit of a random question that I threw out to start with. After all, Calvin could easily "stay in school" and remain Catholic like his classmate, Ignatius of Loyola

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Damn ok I kinda love Christine

thank you, I was trying to walk the line between her being a alt-version of Elizabeth and yet somehow still being as "spirited and capable" as her mother and namesake was OTL.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A variant of the Ingolstadt-survival tree I posted on "Alternate Monarchs"


Ludwig VII 'the Bearded', Duke of Bavaria-Ingolstadt [1413-1443], Comte de Mortain [1416-1447], Comte de Basse-Marche [1402-1447] (1365/1369-1447) 1m: 1402 Anne de Bourbon-Vendôme (d.1408); 2m: 1413 Catherine d'Alençon (1380-1462)

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[1m.] Ludwig VIII 'the Humpbacked', Duke of Bavaria-Ingolstadt [1443-1445] (1403-1445) m: 1441 Margarethe of Brandenburg (1410-1465)​

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Ludwig IX, Duke of Bavaria-Ingolstadt [1445/1447-1485], Comte de Basse-Marche [1447-1485], Comte de Mortain [1] (1442-1485) m: 1456 Elisabeth of Burgundy-Nevers [2] (1439-1483)​

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Ludwig (1457-1459)​

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Johann V, Duke of Bavaria-Ingolstadt, Comte de Basse-Marche et Mortain [1485-1514], Comte de Nevers [1491-1518] (1458-1518) m: 1478 Amalie of Brandenburg (1461-1512)​

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Elisabeth [3], Comtesse de Basse-Marche, Mortain et Nevers (1484-1537) 1m: 1498 Wilhelm III, Landgrave of Hesse (1471-1500); 2m: 1502 Ludwig V, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1478-1544)​

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[2m.] Philipp II, Elector Palatine of the Rhine, Comte de Basse-Marche, Mortain et Nevers, Count of Neuburg (1505-1558) m: 1520 princess of Bavaria?​

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[2m.] Amalie (1507-1569) m: 1522 duke of Bavaria? [4]​

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Johann (1487-1488)​

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Stillborn Son (1490)​

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Margarethe (1460-1492)​

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Stillborn Son (1461)​

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Anna (1462-1505)​

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Wilhelm, Cardinal, Prince-Bishop of Liège [1485-1517], Bishop of Freising [1495-1517], Bishop of Hildesheim [1503-1517], Bishop of Regensburg [1507-1517] (1464-1517)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1466)​

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Elisabeth (1469-1471)​

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Katharina (1443-1446)​

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[1m.] Johann (1404)​

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[2m.] Johann (1414)​

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[2m.] Stillborn Daughter ()​

[1] per her inheritance from her father, Catherine d'Alençon received the viscountcy of Saint-Sylvain and Thuit, the two lordships of Saint-Loyer-des-Champs and d'Aunou-le Faucon and the chatellanie of Exmes. Charles VII confirmed her in these possessions in 1445 (siding with her over her nephew), and in 1460, she made these possessions over to the king rather than her nephew. Stands to reason that she might pick a stepgrandson
[2] per the original inheritance division of the comte de Nevers, Élisabeth was supposed to receive the lands "beyond the Meuse" (the lands in Brabant, Lothier and Namur (as well as his claims to the duchy of Burgundy)). In addition to the county of Basse-Marche and Mortain (the dowry of his grandmother, Anne de Bourbon, and bought by Ludwig VII, confirmed by Charles VII), the Ingolstadt line is also the heir to the allodial possessions of the Straubing branch (less the county of Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland), so a Flemish match makes sense.
[3] Amalie had no children OTL (although it was potentially due to her husband's disability- he may have been retarded)
[4] to tie off any competing claims about the inheritance of Ingolstadt

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Margarethe (1460-1492)Stillborn Son (1461)Anna (1462-1505)

would it be possible- given the lands their father/brother is heir to, for Margarethe or Anna to end up as potential brides for either a duke of Brittany or Alençon? @material_boy @isabella @Nuraghe @Brita

also @Janprimus how would the existence of this line with holdings in Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut affect the Burgundians? would Johann V be considered for Marie of Burgundy? or would Charles the Bold's distrust of the pro-French Nevers line extend to Johann as well?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Scotland in the Age of the Yorks:

James IV, King of Scots [1488-1523] (1473-1523) 1m: 1485 Cecily of York (1469-1503); 2m: 1505 [1] Elisabeth of the Palatinate (1483-1522)

[1m.] Margaret (1489-1544) m: 1505 [2] John, 2e Duke of Albany (b.1484)​

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3e Duke of Albany​

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James, 4e Duke of Albany (1532-1596) m: 1562 Christine, Queen of Scots (1537-1600)​

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[1m.] James V, King of Scots [1523-1550] (1491-1550) 1m: 1508 Marguerite de France [3] (1494-1512); 2m: 1515 Amalie of Cleves-Ravenstein [4] (1495-1561)​

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[1m.] Stillborn Son (1512)​

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[2m.] James, Earl of Galloway [5] (1518-1520)​

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[2m.] Cecily (1521-1564) m: 1538 Philipp II, Elector Palatine of the Rhine [6] (1517-1580)​

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Sibylle (1540-1546)​

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Ludwig (1541-1543)​

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Rupprecht IV, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (1542-1591) m: 1560 Anne of York [10] (1541-1603)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1545)​

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Philipp, Count Palatine of Sponheim (1547-1599) m: Princess of Cleves​

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Elisabeth (1550-1609)​

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Cäcilie (1542-1612)​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1522)​

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[2m.] Robert, Duke of Rothesay (1524-1546) m: 1535 Kristina of Denmark, Sweden & Norway [7] (1521-1590)​

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Christina, Queen of Scots (1537-1600) 1m: 1550 Charles, Duke of Fife [8] (1529-1560); 2m: 1562 James, Duke of Albany [8] (1542-1596)​

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[1m.] Margaret (1554-1589) m: ?​

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[1m.] Stillborn Son (1556)​

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[1m.] Christine (1559-1591) m: England​

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[2m] James VI, King of Scots [from 1600] (b.1562) m: England​

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[2m.] Isabella (b.1563)​

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[2m.] Charles, Duke of Albany (b.1564)​

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[2m.] Christian, Duke of Fife (b.1569)​

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[2m.] Anne (b. 1573)​

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James, Earl of Galloway [5] (1538-1539)​

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Charles, Earl of Galloway (1540-1543)​

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Isabella (1542-1589) m:​

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Dorothea (1545-1600) m:​

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[2m.] Elizabeth (1527-1583)​

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[1m.] Mary (1494-1496)​

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[1m.] Isabella (1497-1557) m: 1513 Johann, Elector of Saxony [9] (1468-1532)​

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Ernst II, Elector of Saxony (1515-1569) m: 1535 Dorothea of Denmark, Sweden & Norway [7] (1520-1580)​

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Johann Christian, Elector of Saxony (1539-1599) m: 1558 Margaret of York [10] (1543-1606)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1541)​

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Isabella (1543-1586) m: ?​

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Dorothea (1544-1601)​

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Ernst Wilhelm, Duke of Coburg (1546-1588)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1548)​

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Christine (1551-1587)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1518)​

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Friedrich (1521-1543)​

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Johann Jakob, Duke of Weimar (1523-1586) m: ?​

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Elisabeth (1525-1577)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1528)​

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[1m.] Edward (1498-1500)​

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[1m.] Stillborn Son (1500)​

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[1m.] Cecily (1503-1549) m: ?​

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[2m.] Robert, Duke of Fife (1506-1541) m: 1522 ?​

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Charles, Duke of Fife (1529-1561) m: Christine, Queen of Scots (1537-1600)​

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[2m.] Annabella (1508-1553)​

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[1] Norman MacDougall mentions that James sought to extend Scots' influence in Europe, especially in the Rhineland and the Low Countries. The widowed landgravine of Hesse, sister of the pro-French Elector Palatine, Ludwig V. would be a coup. This would be before Ludwig marries Emperor Maximilian's niece, so he could still be viewed as a French proxy
[2] James decides this match after his younger son dies. The main reason is how "thin" the Stewart line is looking.
[3] daughter of Charles VIII and Elizabeth of York
[4] daughter of Philipp of Cleves, Herr von Ravenstein and his TTL wife
[5] James is the first male-line grandson of a king of Scots born since the reign of King Robert II, he's granted the title of "earl of Galloway"
[6] son of Ludwig V and Sibylla of Bavaria, his mom dies in childbirth
[7] How does OTL Isabella of Austria still exist here? Simple. The dowry required to get Anne of York to be duchess of Burgundy/future empress would've likely been staggering. Edward IV, when he died, left a near empty treasury. Chances are good that it was a while before they could make up that - meaning Anne and Katherine likely got much lower matches than planned OTL.
[8] slight explanation here: when left with only male-line granddaughters, James V does not change the Succession Laws of Scotland by smashing King Robert's entail. Mostly because he knows that it will lead to nothing but civil war or an attempt by England to engage Christine to the prince of Wales. Instead, he takes a different approach. He summons the Scots parliament and has them acknowledge Christine as his heiress. He ties this acknowledgment to her marrying her to the duke of Fife's heir (i.e. the one who would inherit the throne after King James V's death anyway) to allay Scottish xenophobia. The lairds are perhaps not entirely happy about it, but James V is not the sort of man they want to piss off. Even when dead. So they grumble about it being "irregular" but most are just grateful that it's avoiding the civil war that will inevitably result if the king dies without such a proviso and his heiress is a daughter. The English might start getting ideas.
When the duke of Fife dies only leaving daughters, the Scots parliament "obliges" the crowned Christine to accept their candidate: the duke of Albany's heir. "Rather that witless fool than an English prick", in the words of a contemporary. They realize afterwards that they should've taken the English dick. Because they deliver into their queen's hands not only a husband, but also a stick she can use to hit them back into line with. Due to Fife dying with no male heirs, his lands return to the crown- much to the grumbling of his relatives who feel they didn't get quite as much out of the royal connection as they hoped. United with Albany's own lands, Christine becomes the Scottish monarch with the largest footprint since James I's reign. And that Albany is a decent soldier, rigidly loyal to his wife- he's got a whole family history of backstabbing the crown, so he knows that any misstep is going to be seized upon- and, once his son is born...here to stay, scares enough Scots lairds into open rebellion. Where Albany shows them just how "witless" and ruthless he is in defending both his wife and both the crown his son will one day wear.
[9] Johann's eldest son dies of a childhood illness, and at Emperor Maximilian's "suggestion", the negotiations for Isabella to marry the duke of Guelders are broken off and the marriage to Johann arranged instead
[10] daughters of Richard of Shrewsbury's namesake grandson, the 3e Duke of York. The 3e duke is married to King Richard III (son of Edward V)'s daughter. The duchess' nephew, the prince of Wales (and future Richard IV) is the prince of Wales they were concerned about marrying Christine. It's Richard IV's kids who marry Christine's.

@HortenseMancini @isabella @Brita @Jan Olbracht

Potentially in the same universe


Richard, Duke of York (1411-1460) m: 1437 Cecily Neville (1415-1495)

Anne (1439-1486) 1m: 1447 Henry, Duke of Exeter (1430-1471[1]); 2m: 1471 Frañsez II, Duke of Brittany (1435-1492)​

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[1m.] Anne (1455-1511) m: 1466 Thomas, Marquess of Dorset (1455-1501)​

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issue?​

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[2m.] Cécile (1472-1526) m: 1490[2] Karel II, Duke of Guelders (1467-1501[3])​

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Stillborn Son (1493)​

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Katharina (1496-1497)​

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Eduard II, Duke of Guelders (1498-1502)​

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[2m.] Richard, Duke of Brittany (1475-1528) 1m: 1490 Margaret of Scots (1475-1506); 2m: 1508 Yolande of Lorraine[4] (1494-1513)​

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[1m.] Charles (1492-1493)​

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[1m.] Frañsez, Comte de Montfort (1494-1525) m: 1511 Helene of the Palatinate[5] (1493-1541)​

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Richard (1514-1518)​

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Marguerite (1516-1569) m: ?​

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Stillborn Son (1517)​

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Jean VII, Duke of Brittany (1519-1577) m: [daughter of Charles IX of France and his second wife]​

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Frañsez (1520-1564) m: 1540 Louise d'Orléans, Comtesse de Boulogne[6] (1523-)​

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Eleonore (1522-1589) m: ?​

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Stillborn Daughter (1523)​

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[1m.] Richard (1495-1501)​

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[1m.] Anne (1498-1547) m: 1512[7] Heinrich, Duke of Saxe-Freiburg (1473-1541)​

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Sibylle (1514-1577) m: ?​

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Albrecht (1515-1518)​

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Emilie (1517-1575) m: ?​

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Möritz (1519-1570) m: ?​

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Sidonie (1520-1522)​

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Severinus (1523-1541)​

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[1m.] Marguerite (1500-1559) m: ?​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1509)​

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[2m.] Renée (1511-1572) m: ?​

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[2m.] Catherine (1512-1537) m: ?​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1513)​

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[2m.] Frañsez, Comte d'Etampes (1477-1481)​

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[1] Killed at the battle of Barnet (he nearly died there OTL). Ironically, his recovery from his injuries sustained there spared him from being prt of the casualties at Tewkesbury
[2] Marriage arranged by Anne of Beaujeu, Regent of France between her husband's nephew (in French captivity between 1486 and 1492) and Cécile both to prevent her from being married to Edward V or the duke of Burgundy
[3] Killed in the Frisian Rising
[4] Not as "odd" a match as it sounds. Yolande's mother is Catherine de Foix (OTL queen of Navarre), who in addition to being duchess of Lorraine, is also Dowager Duchess of Albany. Yolande is thus not only sister to the duke of Lorraine but also half-sister to the duke of Albany
[5] Marriage arranged as a "connivance" between his uncle, James IV of Scots, the Elector Palatine and the French king. On the part of the Scots, it's an attempt to further extend their influence into the Rhineland, for France it prevents the Breton heir from contracting a more threatening marriage with a powerful neighbor (England, Burgundy or Spain), while for Ludwig V, Elector Palatine- recently married to a French princess- it further cements his pro-French stance
Also had the idea that James IV's son/heir is married to Helene's sister, Amalie (his second wife, naturellement. His first wife was the daughter of Charles VIII and Elizabeth of York)
[6] Only surviving child of Claude, Duc d'Orléans (son of OTL Louis XII) and Madeleine de la Tour d'Auvergne, Comtesse de Boulogne. The majority of the Orléans lands go to her uncle, although Louise receives the counties of Soissons, Blois and Coucy, in addition to her mother's lands (county of Boulogne and Saint-Saturnin)
[7] Marriage arranged as part of the 1508 Peace of Cambrai between Guelders and the duke of Burgundy. Originally, her widowed aunt, Cécile, was supposed to marry Heinrich. But Cécile refused to remarry, and encouraged a pairing between her niece and Heinrich instead, dowering Anne with the lands she'd received as jointure in Guelders. Unfortunately, as OTL, Heinrich can't hang onto these

 

[Brita]

[1m.] Frañsez, Comte de Montfort (1494-1525) m: 1511 Helene of the Palatinate[5] (1493-1541)

I love the idea!

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I love the idea!

thank you. any suggestions for marriage partners would be welcome

 

[Brita]

A few ideas that came to my mind:

[1m.] Marguerite (1500-1559) m: ?

Maybe Henri II de Navarre or Guy XVI de Laval if his first wife dies as OTL.

Eleonore (1522-1589) m: ?

Guy XVII de Laval if his father doesn't marry Marguerite?

Marguerite (1516-1569) m: ?

Otto IV of Schaumburg?

[2m.] Renée (1511-1572) m: ?

An Italian match? A surviving Bonifacio IV Paleologo del Monferrato? Or OTL-Renée's match Ercole II d'Este?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A few ideas that came to my mind:

Maybe Henri II de Navarre or Guy XVI de Laval if his first wife dies as OTL.

Guy XVII de Laval if his father doesn't marry Marguerite?

Otto IV of Schaumburg?

An Italian match? A surviving Bonifacio IV Paleologo del Monferrato? Or OTL-Renée's match Ercole II d'Este?

will look into the others, but given that Yolande of Lorraine's mother is OTL Queen Catherine of Navarre, Henri doesn't exist here.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A few ideas that came to my mind:

Maybe Henri II de Navarre or Guy XVI de Laval if his first wife dies as OTL.

what about Carlo III of Savoy or a son of Filiberto II of Savoy?

 

[Brita]

will look into the others, but given that Yolande of Lorraine's mother is OTL Queen Catherine of Navarre, Henri doesn't exist here.

My bad. Here's what happens when you try to think after a four-hour night😴

what about Carlo III of Savoy or a son of Filiberto II of Savoy?

I like the idea!