Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer

[Tolkiene]

As of now most of the big Nazis from OTL are nothing now, many either had just joined the Party or had not yet. At most Röhm is aligning himself with militant communism while Goebbels is a Communist propagandist and Göring is affiliated with the DNVP.

I could see Goebbels potentially going Red, but not Röhm. All his rather vague speechifying about the 'second revolution' wasn't an endorsement of communism or class warfare. He wanted to throw out the old elites in business and the military and essentially give the SA the status the SS, to a large extent, ended up being able to attain, but he hated 'Marxists'. Hell, based on Peter Longerich's study of the SA, he seems to still have had monarchist sympathies in the 20s on top of his right-wing nationalism. Indeed, he appears to have had ties to the Bavarian crown prince Rupprecht.

In 1919 he was part of the Freikorps Epp under Franz von Epp, which was heavily involved in the violent suppression of the Munich Soviet Republic, and continued his career in the Reichswehr. At the time he met Hitler, he was still working with the Reichswehr as an officer. He was an intermediary between the army and various right-wing paramilitary groups, and informally known as the 'machine-gun king' and an important alliance broker. So he was already active in right-wing politics in post-revolutionary Bavaria by the time he met Hitler in OTL.

 

[Tanner151]

I could see Goebbels potentially going Red, but not Röhm. All his rather vague speechifying about the 'second revolution' wasn't an endorsement of communism or class warfare. He wanted to throw out the old elites in business and the military and essentially give the SA the status the SS, to a large extent, ended up being able to attain, but he hated 'Marxists'. Hell, based on Peter Longerich's study of the SA, he seems to still have had monarchist sympathies in the 20s on top of his right-wing nationalism. Indeed, he appears to have had ties to the Bavarian crown prince Rupprecht.

In 1919 he was part of the Freikorps Epp under Franz von Epp, which was heavily involved in the violent suppression of the Munich Soviet Republic, and continued his career in the Reichswehr. At the time he met Hitler, he was still working with the Reichswehr as an officer. He was an intermediary between the army and various right-wing paramilitary groups, and informally known as the 'machine-gun king' and an important alliance broker. He was already active in right-wing politics in post-revolutionary Bavaria by the time he met Hitler in OTL.

Goebbels will be Communist, Göring will be somewhere on the right.
Röhm will be right-wing as you said, perhaps forming his own political party. Do you think he would have had that pull or would he second himself to someone and use his SA as their paramilitary. Is the DNVP his best bet and if so would they even take him?

 

[Mayukh]

A miscalculation is going to be explored next chapter.

Will the Next Chapter also be a timeskip?

 

[Tanner151]

Will the Next Chapter also be a timeskip?

No it’s a direct continuation of Chapter 25. It was supposed to be in Chapter 25 but it was getting long. It will be its own Chapter. After Chapter 26 the NLF Rise to Power Arc will be done. And the next Arc will start.
the Arcs so far:
Arc 1: Great War
Arc 2: The Wolves in Carinthia
Arc 3: NLF Rise to Power
Arc 4: <Classified>

 

[Mayukh]

Austrian Chancellors and Presidents were Protected by personal Body Guards and Police in 1923

 

[Tolkiene]

Röhm will be right-wing as you said, perhaps forming his own political party. Do you think he would have had that pull or would he second himself to someone and use his SA as their paramilitary. Is the DNVP his best bet and if so would they even take him?

Good question. There really seems to be a lack of good, up-to-date biographies on Röhm, which is unfortunate given his prominent role in the Nazi movement. My gut instinct would be that he'd find the DNVP very stuffy. Plus Röhm was already unhappy with Hitler's 'legalist strategy' after his release from jail, so I don't think he'd have the patience for the DNVP. Too much chatter among old men with old ideas, not enough action. Based on one biography, Röhm seems to have also blamed the old officer corps for the defeat, which is why he wanted to turn the SA into the Reich's new 'national people's army' that would be led by 'political soldiers'.

Having done some digging, it seems Röhm ran the Reichswehr's weapons' section (Waffenreferat) in Bavaria for a while in the early twenties. After the dissolution of the Einwohnerwehren (basically local right-wing militias) in 1921, he was responsible for an illegal Reichswehr department called the Feldzeugmeisterei. I'm not sure how to translate that into English in a way that makes sense, but basically it was supposed to hide weapons and ammunition from the Interallied Control Commission. Unsurprisingly, being the man with the guns gave him a lot of leverage among the armed, right-wing organisations in Bavaria. Hence the title machine-gun king. In 1923 Röhm had his own paramilitary group, the Bund Reichskriegsflagge.

When he and Hitler became partners, he seems to have viewed their relationship in such a manner that Hitler would be the drummer who does the propaganda and political work, but the soldier (Röhm) would have primacy. Röhm came to grumble a lot about him, but even when things came to head in 1934, Röhm and his cronies had no actual plans to coup Hitler. Hell, the SA was on holiday when the purge began.

So my guess is that he'd try to attach himself to someone he thinks he can use instead of becoming the front man himself. Alas, I don't have Longerich's book handy at the moment, but based on what I recall from it - and what I've read in a dissertation I just found while doing some online research - Röhm had a high opinion of Ludendorff and they were partners in the early 20s. Indeed, Röhm seems to have broken with another right-wing leader, a guy called Otto Pittinger, who headed a paramilitary umbrella organisation called Bayern und Reich, due to the latter having a poor relationship with Ludendorff (at the time Ludendorff was still a prominent figure among the right, and not the joke he later became).

Gregor Strasser and Röhm had a bad relationship in OTL. Indeed, Strasser seems to have detested him. However, I'm not sure how much of that may have been due to personal animus or the simple fact that they were both rivals for the spot of the second man in the Party behind Hitler.

 

[RedSword12]

Wilhelm the Tenth is a fantastic author and I would be honored to write something with him if the opportunity presents itself.

Well, that's not gonna happen. Wilhelm the Tenth just decided to leave AH.com because he was severely offended at Ian the Admin saying, "Religions who have any issues with LGBT people can kiss my ass."

 

[Tanner151]

Well, that's not gonna happen. Wilhelm the Tenth just decided to leave AH.com because he was severely offended at Ian the Admin saying, "Religions who have any issues with LGBT people can kiss my ass."

Damn… well that’s unfortunate. Hope he one day comes back.

Austrian Chancellors and Presidents were Protected by personal Body Guards and Police in 1923

Gotcha, thanks. I’ll be using regular policemen then.

Good question. There really seems to be a lack of good, up-to-date biographies on Röhm, which is unfortunate given his prominent role in the Nazi movement. My gut instinct would be that he'd find the DNVP very stuffy. Plus Röhm was already unhappy with Hitler's 'legalist strategy' after his release from jail, so I don't think he'd have the patience for the DNVP. Too much chatter among old men with old ideas, not enough action. Based on one biography, Röhm seems to have also blamed the old officer corps for the defeat, which is why he wanted to turn the SA into the Reich's new 'national people's army' that would be led by 'political soldiers'.


Having done some digging, it seems Röhm ran the Reichswehr's weapons' section (Waffenreferat) in Bavaria for a while in the early twenties. After the dissolution of the Einwohnerwehren (basically local right-wing militias) in 1921, he was responsible for an illegal Reichswehr department called the Feldzeugmeisterei. I'm not sure how to translate that into English in a way that makes sense, but basically it was supposed to hide weapons and ammunition from the Interallied Control Commission. Unsurprisingly, being the man with the guns gave him a lot of leverage among the armed, right-wing organisations in Bavaria. Hence the title machine-gun king. In 1923 Röhm had his own paramilitary group, the Bund Reichskriegsflagge.

When he and Hitler became partners, he seems to have viewed their relationship in such a manner that Hitler would be the drummer who does the propaganda and political work, but the soldier (Röhm) would have primacy. Röhm came to grumble a lot about him, but even when things came to head in 1934, Röhm and his cronies had no actual plans to coup Hitler. Hell, the SA was on holiday when the purge began.

So my guess is that he'd try to attach himself to someone he thinks he can use instead of becoming the front man himself. Alas, I don't have Longerich's book handy at the moment, but based on what I recall from it - and what I've read in a dissertation I just found while doing some online research - Röhm had a high opinion of Ludendorff and they were partners in the early 20s. Indeed, Röhm seems to have broken with another right-wing leader, a guy called Otto Pittinger, who headed a paramilitary umbrella organisation called Bayern und Reich, due to the latter having a poor relationship with Ludendorff (at the time Ludendorff was still a prominent figure among the right, and not the joke he later became).

Gregor Strasser and Röhm had a bad relationship in OTL. Indeed, Strasser seems to have detested him. However, I'm not sure how much of that may have been due to personal animus or the simple fact that they were both rivals for the spot of the second man in the Party behind Hitler.

Perhaps Röhm and the Strasser brothers come together to form a political party with them as the managers and Röhm as the muscle, then they start to distance from each other prior to the German Civil War.

 

[Tolkiene]

Perhaps Röhm and the Strasser brothers come together to form a political party with them as the managers and Röhm as the muscle, then they start to distance from each other prior to the German Civil War.

I believe that could work. Also similar to what happened in OTL following Hitler's arrest and the failed putsch. The NSDAP had been banned, but one of its splinter groups was called the National Socialist Freedom Party (Nationalsozialistische Freiheitspartei). Strasser, Ludendorf and Albrecht von Graefe belonged to a directory that led it. Röhm was involved, too. He was a Reichstag delegate for them for a while.

Gregor Strasser is often labelled a 'Nazbol', but if one looks at his programme from 1925 (the one Hitler shot down at the conference in Bamberg), it has a lot more to do with corporatism and neo-medievalist 'guild socialism' of the sort that was quite en vogue in right-wing circles at the time. Along with far-right nationalism and imperialism.

In August 1932 it was Strasser who said that the Nazi Party should be willing to enter a coalition government as a junior of the conservatives because their the chancellorship-or-nothing strategy was getting them nowhere, whereas Hitler would settle for nothing less than being Reich chancellor. By then Otto had already left the Party and founded his own splinter group, but that came to nothing. So I could imagine Gregor being the main politician and managing the Party bureaucracy, Röhm being the muscle and Otto running the press. Until there's a rift. Presumably Gregor is more willing than Röhm to try and cut a deal with the old elites when it becomes convenient.

 

[Sphinx]

It makes him more human, and in my opinion, more of a monster.

(OTL)Meanwhile Himmler chillin' in the corner, forgotten by everyone and hated by few...

As of now most of the big Nazis from OTL are nothing now, many either had just joined the Party or had not yet. At most Röhm is aligning himself with militant communism while Goebbels is a Communist propagandist and Göring is affiliated with the DNVP. More will be mentioned as we progress but you’re going to find a lot of names you’ve never heard of before leading key Sozinat ministries or armies. A Nazi many of y’all will probably know is that Ernst Kaltenbrunner will be in the Sturmwache (Storm Guard) as a high ranking member, potentially as a Heydrich analogue.

But what about Rommel, Guderian, Manstein, all these men were always going to be in the German military, since their military existence and rise in ranks wasn't directly due to the Nazis, and people like Rommel had been in the military since WWI.
Thank you and good luck

 

[Sphinx]

Perhaps Röhm and the Strasser brothers come together to form a political party with them as the managers and Röhm as the muscle, then they start to distance from each other prior to the German Civil War.

I dont think you should focus on or care too much on Rohm or Political parties within Germany- Whilst I did say I want to have the OTL figures "covered" I dont think it would be wise to splatter the story too much. Hitler is obviously the star with some planets revolving around him, events in Russia and Germany, etc. (Also I just personally dislike Rohm)

 

[Tanner151]

I believe that could work. Also similar to what happened in OTL following Hitler's arrest and the failed putsch. The NSDAP had been banned, but one of its splinter groups was called the National Socialist Freedom Party (Nationalsozialistische Freiheitspartei). Strasser, Ludendorf and Albrecht von Graefe belonged to a directory that led it. Röhm was involved, too. He was a Reichstag delegate for them for a while.

Gregor Strasser is often labelled a 'Nazbol', but if one looks at his programme from 1925 (the one Hitler shot down at the conference in Bamberg), it has a lot more to do with corporatism and neo-medievalist 'guild socialism' of the sort that was quite en vogue in right-wing circles at the time. Along with far-right nationalism and imperialism.

In August 1932 it was Strasser who said that the Nazi Party should be willing to enter a coalition government as a junior of the conservatives because their the chancellorship-or-nothing strategy was getting them nowhere, whereas Hitler would settle for nothing less than being Reich chancellor. By then Otto had already left the Party and founded his own splinter group, but that came to nothing. So I could imagine Gregor being the main politician and managing the Party bureaucracy, Röhm being the muscle and Otto running the press. Until there's a rift. Presumably Gregor is more willing than Röhm to try and cut a deal with the old elites when it becomes convenient.

Hmm. Need a militant far-right party that makes the DNVP look center by comparison. Have the name Freedom in it. German Freedom League or somesuch? Röhm as head of the SA, Gregor as Party Chairman and Otto as Propaganda Chief.

(OTL)Meanwhile Himmler chillin' in the corner, forgotten by everyone and hated by few...

But what about Rommel, Guderian, Manstein, all these men were always going to be in the German military, since their military existence and rise in ranks wasn't directly due to the Nazis, and people like Rommel had been in the military since WWI.
Thank you and good luck

They probably won’t even be mentioned until the German Civil War in the 1930s.

I dont think you should focus on or care too much on Rohm or Political parties within Germany- Whilst I did say I want to have the OTL figures "covered" I dont think it would be wise to splatter the story too much. Hitler is obviously the star with some planets revolving around him, events in Russia and Germany, etc. (Also I just personally dislike Rohm)

Germany is not important, as of now, but Germany will be involved a lot by the ‘30s at least in a tertiary sense. Lutjens is there and will see and experience the chaos to come.

 

[Tolkiene]

Hmm. Need a militant far-right party that makes the DNVP look center by comparison. Have the name Freedom in it. German Freedom League or somesuch? Röhm as head of the SA, Gregor as Party Chairman and Otto as Propaganda Chief.

Works. German Freedom League would be Deutscher Freiheitsbund (DFB) in German. Lol I just remembered that DFB is also the acronyme for the German football association. Truly cursed.

I've been lurking in this thread for a while and have been enjoying the timeline a lot. Hitler is clearly recognisable as a human being because that's he was rather than a demonic, moustache-twirling caricature or a robotic automaton. It doesn't excuse or whitewash him. Rather it makes him more horrifying. Because at the end of the day Hitler and his cronies were people with drives and aspirations who chose to commit horrible evil. And that way it shows why people chose to follow him and his ideology.

 

[Tanner151]

Works. German Freedom League would be Deutscher Freiheitsbund (DFB) in German. Lol I just remembered that DFB is also the acronyme for the German football association. Truly cursed.

I've been lurking in this thread for a while and have been enjoying the timeline a lot. Hitler is clearly recognisable as a human being because that's he was rather than a demonic, moustache-twirling caricature or a robotic automaton. It doesn't excuse or whitewash him. Rather it makes him more horrifying. Because at the end of the day Hitler and his cronies were people with drives and aspirations who chose to commit horrible evil. And that way it shows why people chose to follow him and his ideology.

Ahh, very true. And Union, Alliance, League and all that translates as Bund. So to avoid confusion I'm calling this far-right group composed of the Strasser brother and Roehm to be the German Freedom Party (DFP).

Thank you so much! And I agree, the more human the monster the more monstrous the man.

Exactly if Hitler was a raving madman 24/7 he never would have gotten far. He has charisma and his views appeal to a large proportion of people, at least enough for a large and supported party.

 

[Sphinx]

Now, when will we mention Churchill and his views on race?
He and Hitler were actually quite similar throughout their lives... both were failed artists, both fought in WWI and loved it, both went to a low ebb with Churchill's depression and Hitler's homelessness, both became leaders in their own nations- and both were massive racists.
Thats the problem with the 1930s- racism was more like a science or a fact rather than an idea. So pretty much everyone was racist.
(Btw this is not to defend Hitler I just think this is an interesting thought)

 

[Tanner151]

Now, when will we mention Churchill and his views on race?
He and Hitler were actually quite similar throughout their lives... both were failed artists, both fought in WWI and loved it, both went to a low ebb with Churchill's depression and Hitler's homelessness, both became leaders in their own nations- and both were massive racists.
Thats the problem with the 1930s- racism was more like a science or a fact rather than an idea. So pretty much everyone was racist.
(Btw this is not to defend Hitler I just think this is an interesting thought)

Churchill’s role will be a bit different here. I’m thinking either Minister of the Navy or some Royal Governor somewhere.

No ones gonna think you’re defending Hitler, you’re good.

Also, Chapter 26 will be out sometime in the next week and will conclude this arc and Book 1.

 

[Mayukh]

Also, Chapter 26 will be out sometime in the next week

So Chapter 25 part 2?

 

[Tanner151]

So Chapter 25 part 2?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Sphinx]

Epicc

 

[Mayukh]

What Arc is Going on on now? (Chapter 25)