Family Trees from My WIs

[Kellan Sullivan]

A Very French Game of Thrones (a rough sketch, work-in-progress):

Charles VI ‘le Fou’, King of France [1380-1418] (1368-1418) m: 1385 Isabeau of Bavaria-Ingolstadt (1369-1435)

Charles, Dauphin de Viennois (1386)​

Jeanne (1388-1390)​

Isabeau (1389-1441) 1m: 1396 Richard II, King of England (1367-1400); 2m: 1402 Pedro, Prince of Viana[1] (1389-1413[2])​

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[2m.] Isabel, Queen of Navarre (1406-1458) m: 1419 Charles VII, King of France (1405-1445)​

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[2m.] Carlos (1408-1409)​

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[2m.] Pedro (1410-1413)​

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[2m.] Maria (1412-)​

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Jeanne (1391-1424) m: 1397 Amadeo VIII[3], Duke of Savoy (1383-)​

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Issue​

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Charles, Dauphin de Viennois (1392-1412) m: 1402 Blanche of Lancaster[4] (1392-1442)​

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Charles VII, King of France [1418-1445] (1405-1445) m: 1419 Isabel I, Queen of Navarre (1406-)​

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Catherine (1407-1449) m: ?​

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Isabeau (1408-1475)​

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Stillborn Son (1412)​

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Marie[5] (1393-1438) m: 1405 [ann. 1419[6]] Philippe III, Duke of Burgundy (1396-1467)​

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[1m.] Marguerite (1411-)​

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[1m.] Marie (1412-)​

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[1m.] Anne (1416-)​

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Michelle (1395-1422) m: 1409 René, Duc d’Anjou[7] (1393-1448)​

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Louis, Duc de Guienne (1397-1415) m: 1409 Marguerite of Burgundy (1390-1419)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1412)​

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Isabeau (1415-)​

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Louis, Comte de Guise (1416-1474) m:​

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Jean, Duc de Touraine (1398-1436) 1m: 1409 Anne of Navarre[8] (1398-1413); 2m: 1415 Bonne of Brittany[9] (1395-1442)​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1420)​

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[2m.] Charles (1422-)​

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[2m.] Jeanne (1423-1424)​

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[2m.] Jean (1425-)​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1426)​

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[2m.] Madeleine (1429-)​

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[2m.] Yolande (1430-)​

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[2m.] Louis (1432-1440)​

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[2m.] Stillborn Son (1435)​

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Catherine (1401-1437) m: 1415 ?[10]​

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Philippe, Duc d’Alençon[11] (1403-1461) m: 1420 Maria of Naples (1403-)[12]​

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Issue​

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[1] Son of Pedro of Navarre (TTL Pedro I of Navarre after his brother dies with no issue in 1382) and Marie de Coucy, daughter of Enguerrand VII de Coucy. Isabeau’s governess/mistress of the robes (under Richard II) was Philippa de Coucy. So a Navarrese match for Isabeau is not as weird as it sounds
[2] The Burgundian/Armagnac War of OTL ends up being a far more brutal affair thanks to, how, instead of killing the duc d’Orléans, the assassins merely wounded him severely. But did manage to kill his son (Charles le Poete) who was accompanying him. Orléans is out for blood once he recovers and the period gets summed up by later historians as “pick a side or run and hide”. The Prince of Viana ends up being wounded (his leg has to amputated as a result of his injuries) in one of the battles, although he later succumbs to infection.
[3] Grandson of the duc de Berri and a Breton match is unavailable as explained in my previous tree.
[4] Daughter of Henry IV. I know @material_boy and I are likely going to disagree about this, but there are very few non-Capetian princesses around, and the various factions (Burgundy, Berri, Anjou, Navarre – TTL a player where OTL it wasn’t – and Orléans) at the French court aren’t going to want another one over on them (I considered making her a daughter of Richard II and Anne of Bohemia – that she was sent to France for a marriage with the dauphin at the time of Richard-Isabeau’s marriage – but Anne’s pregnancy she refers to in a letter to her brother was likely no later than 1386, which makes the choice unlikely). Anyhow, Henry sends Blanche to Paris instead, in the hopes of balancing out Isabeau’s Coucy-Navarre influence
[5] Marie ends up being denied her OTL “calling” to a convent, simply because there aren’t enough girls to go around
[6] Philippe uses the excuse of OTL Louis XII (that he wasn’t old enough to consent to the marriage)
[7] Son of Louis II d’Anjou and Giovanna II of Naples (Ladislao the Magnanimous is stillborn). While a match to a second son doesn’t seem overly prestigious, it must be remembered that the Anjous were the largest landowners in France after the king. More than that, René would be the “steward” of these lands in his brother’s absence, similarly to how the comte de Mortain was for Charles II of Navarre’s French lands.
[8] Daughter of Pedro I of Navarre and Marie de Coucy
[9] Daughter of Jean IV, Duke of Brittany, and his third wife, Bonne of Navarre (see previous tree)
[10] I’m genuinely unsure of who Catherine would marry TTL. Henry V is possible, but given that the situation in France is different (she may have originally been promised to Charles le Poete or a brother of his), I’m not sure if she’d be as attractive to Henry.
[11] Pierre II, Comte d’Alençon dies without male issue
[12] Their match was originally agreed around the same time as his brothers’, but then, given the turmoil of the 1410s, she was married to Jean, Comte d’Angoulême (grandfather of OTL François I) instead. Unfortunately, Jean came down with a case of “sword in the gut” in 1418 (when Louis, Duc d’Orléans dies TTL, his only legitimate descendant is his grandson by his second son comte de Vertus – who married the dowager Marguerite of Burgundy). Ergo, OTL Charles VII marries Angoulême’s widow, the youngest daughter of Louis II of Anjou and Giovanna II of Naples

Building on this:

Jean IV, Duke of Brittany [1345-1399] (1339-1399) 1m: 1361 Mary of England (1344-1362); 2m: 1366 Joan de Holland (1350-1379); 3m: 1381 Bona of Navarre (1367-1397)

[2m.] Jeanne (1375-1379)​

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[2m.] Jean V, Duke of Brittany [1399-1432] (1376-1432) m: 1399 Catherine d'Alençon [1] (b.1380)​

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[2m.] Marguerite (1379-1432) m: 1394 Edward, 2e Duke of York [2] (b.1373)​

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[3m.] Pierre (1388-1390)​

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[3m.] Arthur (1390)​

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[3m.] Marie (1392-1450) m: 1400 Alain IX de Rohan, Comte de Porhoët [3] (b.1382)​

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[3m.] Bonne (1395-1443) m: 1416 Jean, Duc de Touraine (1398-1436)​

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[1] OTL, Catherine's brother was his parents' ninth kid, and, at the time of his birth, their only son. Catherine might be French but she's also not "partisan" (Burgundy, Berri, Anjou, Orléans). OTL she married twice (first to Pedro of Navarre, then to Ludwig VII of Bavaria-Ingolstadt).
[2] Edward of Norwich is Richard II's "favourite". Marguerite is also Richard II's half-niece. The marriage sees Edward created "Lord Warden of the Cinq Ports" in 1396 (instead of his dad). My idea is that Anglo-Breton relations take a nose-dive following Richard II's deposition
[3] as meh as a Rohan match sounds, the comtes de Porhoët are "already" starting their climb. In 1373, Alain IX's granddad married Bona of Navarre's aunt, Jeanne. And in 1374, Alain's aunt, another Jeanne, had married Catherine d'Alençon's uncle, the comte du Perche. Not to mention Alain IX's mom is the daughter of Olivier de Clisson, the Constable of France. As with Jean V-Catherine, Marie-Alain is a French match aimed at not being "too French" for the English, or "too English" for the French.

@Jan Olbracht @VVD0D95 @CaptainShadow @isabella:

@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Brita @FouDuRoy

Couple of questions regarding this tree (and the Berri/Breton ones attached to it):

Looking for matches for the following people:

Catherine and Isabeau de Valois (sisters of TTL Charles VII). One of them is likely to be married in Castile, but that still leaves the other (OTL Catherine de Valois I'm considering as either wife of James I of Scotland or an alt-son of his older brother)
Maria of Navarre (sister to TTL Charles VII's wife)
Marie of Burgundy (sister of Jean sans Peur, OTL countess of Savoy, since her place has been taken by Jeanne de Valois)
Philippe the Good of Burgundy needs a second wife (Jacqueline of Holland is already spoken for, unfortunately), and his daughters need husbands

 

[RedKing]

@isabella @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @RedKing @material_boy @Ivan Lupo @CaptainShadow @VVD0D95 @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Zulfurium @Brita @FouDuRoy

Couple of questions regarding this tree (and the Berri/Breton ones attached to it):

Looking for matches for the following people:

Catherine and Isabeau de Valois (sisters of TTL Charles VII). One of them is likely to be married in Castile, but that still leaves the other (OTL Catherine de Valois I'm considering as either wife of James I of Scotland or an alt-son of his older brother)
Maria of Navarre (sister to TTL Charles VII's wife)
Marie of Burgundy (sister of Jean sans Peur, OTL countess of Savoy, since her place has been taken by Jeanne de Valois)
Philippe the Good of Burgundy needs a second wife (Jacqueline of Holland is already spoken for, unfortunately), and his daughters need husbands

Maybe Isabeau can go to Castile, and Catherine to Scotland. Then Marie of Burgundy can marry Henry V if he’s free and is the King.

 

[RedKing]

Maybe Isabeau can go to Castile, and Catherine to Scotland. Then Marie of Burgundy can marry Henry V if he’s free and is the King.

Also maybe Philippe can marry Isabella of Portugal as per OTL?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Maybe Isabeau can go to Castile, and Catherine to Scotland. Then Marie of Burgundy can marry Henry V if he’s free and is the King.

Scotland's "less important" than Castile (why I'm giving OTL Mrs. Henry V to the Scots - maybe Jamie gets to France unimpeded TTL). Henry V to Marie of Burgundy would definitely make for interesting times, an earlier alt-Henry VI?

 

[RedKing]

Scotland's "less important" than Castile (why I'm giving OTL Mrs. Henry V to the Scots - maybe Jamie gets to France unimpeded TTL). Henry V to Marie of Burgundy would definitely make for interesting times, an earlier alt-Henry VI?

Probably, though minus the mental illness (since that was likely inherited from Charles VI), which would leave the House of Lancaster in a much stronger position.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Probably, though minus the mental illness (since that was likely inherited from Charles VI), which would leave the House of Lancaster in a much stronger position.

@material_boy can correct me, but Henry IV only looked at a Burgundian match after 1410, so would Marie (b.1386) still be considered? Or would her namesake niece (OTL countess of Cleves) be offered instead (sort of a switcheroo of brides): the count of Cleves marries Marie the Elder (b.1386), while Henry V marries Marie the Younger (b.1393)

 

[RedKing]

@material_boy can correct me, but Henry IV only looked at a Burgundian match after 1410, so would Marie (b.1386) still be considered? Or would her namesake niece (OTL countess of Cleves) be offered instead (sort of a switcheroo of brides): the count of Cleves marries Marie the Elder (b.1386), while Henry V marries Marie the Younger (b.1393)

But if there’s no French Princess available (or if it becomes clear he isn’t getting one), he might look for a Burgundian bride sooner. Though if he doesn’t look for one until 1410, Henry could marry Marie the Younger.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

But if there’s no French Princess available (or if it becomes clear he isn’t getting one), he might look for a Burgundian bride sooner. Though if he doesn’t look for one until 1410, Henry could marry Marie the Younger.

Marie the Younger married in 1406, while Marie the Elder wed in 1401. Cleves' first wife died in February 1401, Marie the Elder only married in May 1401 (although the contract with Savoy dated from the 1390s apparently). So Marie the Elder goes to Cleves, and Marie the Younger weds Henry V circa 1406-1410?

 

[RedKing]

Marie the Younger married in 1406, while Marie the Elder wed in 1401. Cleves' first wife died in February 1401, Marie the Elder only married in May 1401 (although the contract with Savoy dated from the 1390s apparently). So Marie the Elder goes to Cleves, and Marie the Younger weds Henry V circa 1406-1410?

Marie the Younger works better then, the wedding probably happens in ~1408, when she’s 15, around child bearing age for the time.

 

[Brita]

Could Louis III d'Anjou work for Maria of Navarre or is the age gap too important?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Could Louis III d'Anjou work for Maria of Navarre or is the age gap too important?

OTL Louis III doesn't exist. TTL Louis III is the son of Louis II d'Anjou and Giovanna II of Naples (Ladislao died in infancy). And in any case, he's already married. But his son is born in 1411, so a match with Maria of Navarre - after her Aunt Michelle's death - might definitely be considered.

Was also considering a son of the duke of Brittany and Catherine d'Alençon as a potential husband, but king trumps duke, surely?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Marie the Younger works better then, the wedding probably happens in ~1408, when she’s 15, around child bearing age for the time.

How's this look?

Marie (b.1393) m: 1406[1] Henry V, King of England (b.1386)

Mary (b.1408)​

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Henry, Prince of Wales (b.1410)​

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Edward (b.1412)​

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Margaret (b.1413)​

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Philippa (b.1416)​

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Richard (b.1419)​

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[1] minimum age of consent for a girl being 13

@VVD0D95 @isabella @Brita @material_boy @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @CaptainShadow

 

[RedKing]

How's this look?

Marie (b.1393) m: 1406[1] Henry V, King of England (b.1386)

Mary (b.1408)​

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Henry, Prince of Wales (b.1410)​

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Edward (b.1412)​

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Margaret (b.1413)​

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Philippa (b.1416)​

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Richard (b.1419)​

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[1] minimum age of consent for a girl being 13

Love it! Maybe Henry, Prince of Wales could marry one of Charles VII's daughters?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Love it! Maybe Henry, Prince of Wales could marry one of Charles VII's daughters?

Charles VII's daughters would only be in the 1420s, so pretty big gap. Not to mention that Charles VII's daughters would be double descendants of Edward III (through Henry IV and through Isabella of Woodstock), plus Isabeau de Valois is still alive. So she might be an obstacle to overcome if she's anything of a political player (after all, she's still young enough when her second husband dies that someone might be interested in marrying her). She might not have a say over the whole Navarre-France match (that's her father-in-law's business), but that doesn't mean she can't influence her daughter/grandchildren.

Not to mention that I think much would depend on the outcome of the turmoil in France in the 1410s. If Henry V gets involved or not, what French feeling is like towards the idea of an English match

 

[RedKing]

Charles VII's daughters would only be in the 1420s, so pretty big gap. Not to mention that Charles VII's daughters would be double descendants of Edward III (through Henry IV and through Isabella of Woodstock), plus Isabeau de Valois is still alive. So she might be an obstacle to overcome if she's anything of a political player (after all, she's still young enough when her second husband dies that someone might be interested in marrying her). She might not have a say over the whole Navarre-France match (that's her father-in-law's business), but that doesn't mean she can't influence her daughter/grandchildren.

Not to mention that I think much would depend on the outcome of the turmoil in France in the 1410s. If Henry V gets involved or not, what French feeling is like towards the idea of an English match

True, a match elsewhere probably makes more sense then.

 

[CaptainShadow]

How's this look?

Marie (b.1393) m: 1406[1] Henry V, King of England (b.1386)

Mary (b.1408)​

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Henry, Prince of Wales (b.1410)​

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Edward (b.1412)​

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Margaret (b.1413)​

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Philippa (b.1416)​

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Richard (b.1419)​

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[1] minimum age of consent for a girl being 13

@VVD0D95 @isabella @Brita @material_boy @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @CaptainShadow

Interesting, though this'll butterfly Henry's marriage games so the build up to Agincourt is butterflied. Which may very well change alot of things.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Interesting, though this'll butterfly Henry's marriage games so the build up to Agincourt is butterflied. Which may very well change alot of things.

As said above:
The Burgundian/Armagnac War of OTL ends up being a far more brutal affair thanks to, how, instead of killing the duc d’Orléans, the assassins merely wounded him severely. But did manage to kill his son (Charles le Poete) who was accompanying him. Orléans is out for blood once he recovers and the period gets summed up by later historians as “pick a side or run and hide”.

Instead of a Burgundian-Armagnac it's Burgundy versus Orléans. Charles le Poëte (son of Orléans) is killed by Burgundian assassins, Jean, Comte d'Angoulême (grandfather of François I) is killed in another altercation against Burgundian forces, leaving a virgin Angevin widow who marries OTL Charles VII (here called Philippe). The duc de Guienne (pro-Burgundy) and the duc de Touraine (pro-Orléans, or, rather, anti-Burgundy) are at one another's throats (they were OTL, so I don't see why that would change). The prince of Viana (Isabeau de Valois' husband) ends up getting wounded (his leg having to be amputated as a result) and later dying of injuries received fighting the Orléanists.

So, while no Agincourt, the situation on the ground in France is definitely "changed"

 

[Brita]

OTL Louis III doesn't exist. TTL Louis III is the son of Louis II d'Anjou and Giovanna II of Naples (Ladislao died in infancy). And in any case, he's already married. But his son is born in 1411, so a match with Maria of Navarre - after her Aunt Michelle's death - might definitely be considered.

OK.

Was also considering a son of the duke of Brittany and Catherine d'Alençon as a potential husband, but king trumps duke, surely?

Well, several dukes of Brittany married kings' or queens' daughters OTL (just in the 14th and 15th centuries, we have John III/Isabella of Castile, John IV/Mary of Waltham & Joan of Navarre, John V/Joan of France, Francis I/Isabella of Scotland and Francis II/Margaret of Navarre). So theoretically the match is possible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Well, several dukes of Brittany married kings' or queens' daughters OTL (just in the 14th and 15th centuries, we have John III/Isabella of Castile, John IV/Mary of Waltham & Joan of Navarre, John V/Joan of France, Francis I/Isabella of Scotland and Francis II/Margaret of Navarre). So theoretically the match is possible.

Not to mention that with a Coucy/anti-Lancastrian view, a Navarre-Breton match might be "undesirable" by both Paris and London. So Maria of Navarre down to Naples while TTL Charles VII's sisters go to Castile/Brittany?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Continuing this:

Pedro I, King of Castile & Léon [from 1350] (b.1334) m: 1346 Blanche of Navarre [1] (b.1331)

Maria (1350-) m: 1367 Joao I[1], King of Portugal (1349-)​

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Joao (1370-1373)​

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Pedro II, King of Portugal (1373-1435) m:​

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Ines (1375-1432)​

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Fernando (1377)​

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João (1378-1422)​

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Blanca (1382-1410)​

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Stillborn Child (1351)​

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Pedro (1353-1359)​

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Blanca (1356-1371) m: 1371 John, Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399)​

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John (1371)​

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Duarte, Prince de los Asturias (b.1358) m: 1375 Philippa of Lancaster (1361-)​

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Blanca (1378-1431)​

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Pedro (1380-1385)​

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Duarte (1382-1384)​

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Felipe (1383-)​

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Maria (1385-1413)​

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Juana (1387-1441)​

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Isabel (1388-1459)​

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Pedro (1390)​

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Leonor (1393-1428)​

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Margarita (1396-1451)​

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Isabel (1359-) m: 1372 Edmund, Duke of York (1341-1402)​

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Isabella (1380-)​

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Edward, Duke of York (1381-)​

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Stillborn Son (1383)​

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Philippa (1384-)​

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Catalina (1361-) 1m: 1375 Carlos, Prince of Viana (1361-1382[2]); 2m: 1365 ?​

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[1] Son of Pedro I and Ines de Castro (Fernando I dies in infancy, and after the death of Pedro’s daughter, Maria), Pedro’s kids by Ines wind up as heirs to the throne.
[2] Killed in the battle of Mont-de-Marsan against Armagnac forces

@isabella @WillVictoria @VVD0D95 @Ivan Lupo @Dr.Evil @Prince de Pringondani @The Professor @Zygmunt Stary @Jan Olbracht @RedKing @Kurt_Steiner

Wondering if there's any good way to prevent the "near obvious" intermarriage that is likely between Duarte's eldest daughter and Joao I's son?