Maybe have there be an English Princess available for him? Or have Aragon offer a Princess with a large dowry.
Family Trees from My WIs
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
The Black Prince has no daughters, Philippa of Clarence is already married and her daughters are too young, John of Gaunt will likely remarry to Katherine Swynford earlier here, but I don't know if a Beaufort will be considered acceptable. Yorks would be similar cousins. That leaves Gloucesters. And, TBH, anything below the Black Prince's daughters are likely "too low".
If Gaunt and Katherine have a legitimate daughter in their union the child might be good enough.
A York girl would have less Iberian blood AND is a cousin so maybe she will work
Pretty unlikely as she would be the daughter of a younger son by a low rank wife
I'll have to catch up on this thread in full another time, but yes this is basically right. I'm not sure I'd saying Henry IV "looked at a Burgundian match" so much as I'd say Henry IV gave Monmouth license to negotiate his own wedding, and Monmouth chose a Burgundian girl. (This was during the period when Henry had effectively retreated from government as his health deteriorated and he began to focus more on church affairs while leaving the affairs of state to his son. Monmouth was regent of England in all but name 1410-1412ish.) Henry IV parachuted in at the last minute and blew up the whole thing up when he retook control of government and dismantled Monmouth's de facto regency in the final year of his life.
This is a weird little idea I had, and I'll admit I haven't read the GoT books, so forgive me if my "backstory" is a bit iffy.
What if Charles le Dauphin is a sort of Rhaegar to Charles VI's Aerys? Charles is maybe attempting to get everybody to "play nice", perhaps even a "Tournament at Harrenhall" type conference (Brittany, Burgundy, Orléans, Anjou, Berri, Bourbon and Navarre - and their lackies in attendance) not necessarily with the intention of "usurping" his father (as Rhaegar seems to have considered), but with the intention of being named "regent". Course, like Harrenhall, it's a flop (no Lyanna Stark equivalent either), because no one's willing to give up their pawns (Burgundy's got the duc de Guienne/Marie in custody; Navarre's got the duc de Touraine and, more recently, Charles' sister) or when they are willing to work together, it's not on anything "important".
On the way out of the "tournament", Burgundy tries to bump off Orléans and ends up killing his son instead (the Lyanna Stark kidnapping equivalent). And suddenly what was intended as a conference to work out the "stability" of the realm causes the realm to be plunged into all out civil war that will outlast the dauphin, Orléans and two of his sons, Burgundy, Guienne, Berri, Bourbon, the prince of Viana, and Charles VI himself.
Thoughts?
What if Charles le Dauphin is a sort of Rhaegar to Charles VI's Aerys? Charles is maybe attempting to get everybody to "play nice", perhaps even a "Tournament at Harrenhall" type conference (Brittany, Burgundy, Orléans, Anjou, Berri, Bourbon and Navarre - and their lackies in attendance) not necessarily with the intention of "usurping" his father (as Rhaegar seems to have considered), but with the intention of being named "regent". Course, like Harrenhall, it's a flop (no Lyanna Stark equivalent either), because no one's willing to give up their pawns (Burgundy's got the duc de Guienne/Marie in custody; Navarre's got the duc de Touraine and, more recently, Charles' sister) or when they are willing to work together, it's not on anything "important".
On the way out of the "tournament", Burgundy tries to bump off Orléans and ends up killing his son instead (the Lyanna Stark kidnapping equivalent). And suddenly what was intended as a conference to work out the "stability" of the realm causes the realm to be plunged into all out civil war that will outlast the dauphin, Orléans and two of his sons, Burgundy, Guienne, Berri, Bourbon, the prince of Viana, and Charles VI himself.
Thoughts?
Does it sound plausible to say that Navarre-Orléans have a falling out when the Dowager Queen of England weds the prince of Viana instead of Orléans' son? After all, if Orléans is trying to "augment" his power as OTL, marriage to the king's eldest (instead of youngest daughter - I mentioned that OTL Mrs. Henry V was likely betrothed to Orléans' heir when all her siblings were getting engaged) daughter would "cement" that.
Then, Orléans gets "cheated" because she marries the prince of Viana (this isn't really anybody but the two Coucy sisters - the Queen of Navarre and the duchess of Ireland's doing). But it suits the anti-Orléans' faction in Paris by "curbing" Orléans' ambitions somewhat. Burgundy was maybe likewise hoping to get Isabeau for his own son, but is more than willing to accept the Navarre match because it's "not Orléans".
Ergo, Isabeau sort of becomes the "Lyanna Stark" figure (albeit not exactly)? Orléans blames Burgundy for it, Burgundy realizes he's in for it and that he needs to strike first. Cue the botched assassination attempt, etc etc
@material_boy @FouDuRoy @jeandebueil
Then, Orléans gets "cheated" because she marries the prince of Viana (this isn't really anybody but the two Coucy sisters - the Queen of Navarre and the duchess of Ireland's doing). But it suits the anti-Orléans' faction in Paris by "curbing" Orléans' ambitions somewhat. Burgundy was maybe likewise hoping to get Isabeau for his own son, but is more than willing to accept the Navarre match because it's "not Orléans".
Ergo, Isabeau sort of becomes the "Lyanna Stark" figure (albeit not exactly)? Orléans blames Burgundy for it, Burgundy realizes he's in for it and that he needs to strike first. Cue the botched assassination attempt, etc etc
@material_boy @FouDuRoy @jeandebueil
Reimagined, with a slightly less fertile Philippa. Wasn't sure of titles for the younger sons. I sent the youngest one into the church, not sure if it's "likely".
Duarte I, King of Castile (135
m: 1376 Philippa of Lancaster (1361-)Pedro, Prince de los Asturias (1377-) m: 1386 Marie de Lusignan, Lady of Madrid[1] (1374-)
Blanca[2] (b.1378)
Maria (b.1379) m: 1390
Duarte, (b.1383)
Juan (b.1385)
Isabel (b.1387)
Felipe, Cardinal [], Archbishop of Toledo [], (b.1389)
[1] I realize the chances of Pedro I/Duarte I being as magnanimous to Leo V of Armenia as the Trastamaras were OTL is unlikely, but there aren’t a lot of other options available. France and England lack “top tier” candidates – Charles V and Richard II have no daughters or sisters to offer - while Aragon being pro-French means that Juana of Aragon is unlikely to be offered (have other plans for her anyway), Navarre’s princesses are all chronologically misaligned (too old or too young). Maria might be a “subject” but at least she’s a bona fide princess and her dowry is a neat way of getting back the moneys/lands that were settled on her dad.
[2] A nun. She expressed this desire from an early age. (also a convenient way of me preventing a "Portuguese-Castilian" match in this generation, since alt-Joao I's eldest son is born in 1373, and until 1378 is the only surviving son of his parents, which means that in all likelihood, Portugal will be pulling for a slightly older candidate for a bride. Not want to wait a decade.
If @Kurt_Steiner or @Diego or anyone else can recommend some local heiresses for Duarte Jr/Juan to marry I'd be most grateful (I discarded the countess of Albuquerque for Pedro II because I thought it unlikely that she'd stand much chance against a bona fide princess, and she'd be too old for Duarte Jr).
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Random question for @Brita about a Brittany match for Jean V's son by Joan Holland: might Enguerrand de Coucy's daughter by his second marriage be considered as a match? Yes,I know the age gap might be a factor, but IIRC the Coucy estates were near enough to Brittany (not to mention Coucy's ties to England and the Anjous).
Maybe as a second wife, if Catherine dies in childbirth for instance? AFAIK the Coucy estates were mostly in North-eastern France though (but I think Enguerrand was Governor of Brittany at some point).
Also, Enguerrand resumed supporting the French after his father-in-law died but if Anglo-Breton relationships deteriorate in the late 1390s/early 1400s (as you mentioned), then Jean could very well choose a French match for his son.
Another option I was considering is that Coucy has a son in addition to Isabeau, or Enguerrand's bastard son, Perceval, Sieur d'Aubermont (1386-1437) is born legitimate (i.e. Isabeau de Coucy, comtesse de Soissons is born male). Would Enguerrand VIII be considered a decent match for a Breton princess? Even if only in theory?
Coucy was a prominent lord so even if I don't see Jean IV offering his eldest daughter to Enguerrand's son, one of the younger daughters (maybe Marie) could very well end up married to him.
This is crazy, but sans James I being available, is it possible Catherine de Valois (Mrs Henry V) marries the alt-duc de Bourbon (b.1401)? I realize Bourbon's pretty low on succession stakes, but a) I need to find a duchesse de Bourbon and b) the Bourbons are part of the "Berri faction" (the alt duc's mom is a Berri) and their lands make a critical bloc you wouldn't suddenly want siding with the Orléans or Burgundians (the OTL comtesse d'Étampes or OTL duchesse de Bourbon getting a look in).
@isabella @VVD0D95 @Brita @FouDuRoy
@isabella @VVD0D95 @Brita @FouDuRoy
Those who know more about 14th century France can help me here, but what if the Châtillon line of the comtes de Soissons survive? OTL the heir to the last of these comtes was the son-in-law to the duc de Berri. The Châtillon-Soissons held the counties of Soissons, Blois and Dunois and numerous lordships/manors as well. Soissons they sold to the sieur de Coucy after the last comte's uncle was captured at the battle of Poitiers. When the duc de Berri's son-in-law died in 1391, the last comte de Soissons "gave up" and sold the entire inheritance to the duc d'Orléans for 200000 crowns. But if Soissons had survived, how would this have impacted things?
If @Kurt_Steiner or @Diego or anyone else can recommend some local heiresses for Duarte Jr/Juan to marry I'd be most grateful (I discarded the countess of Albuquerque for Pedro II because I thought it unlikely that she'd stand much chance against a bona fide princess, and she'd be too old for Duarte Jr).Reimagined, with a slightly less fertile Philippa. Wasn't sure of titles for the younger sons. I sent the youngest one into the church, not sure if it's "likely".
Duarte I, King of Castile (135
Pedro, Prince de los Asturias (1377-) m: 1386 Marie de Lusignan, Lady of Madrid[1] (1374-)Blanca[2] (b.1378)Maria (b.1379) m: 1390Duarte, (b.1383)Juan (b.1385)Isabel (b.1387)Felipe, Cardinal [], Archbishop of Toledo [], (b.1389)
[1] I realize the chances of Pedro I/Duarte I being as magnanimous to Leo V of Armenia as the Trastamaras were OTL is unlikely, but there aren’t a lot of other options available. France and England lack “top tier” candidates – Charles V and Richard II have no daughters or sisters to offer - while Aragon being pro-French means that Juana of Aragon is unlikely to be offered (have other plans for her anyway), Navarre’s princesses are all chronologically misaligned (too old or too young). Maria might be a “subject” but at least she’s a bona fide princess and her dowry is a neat way of getting back the moneys/lands that were settled on her dad.
[2] A nun. She expressed this desire from an early age. (also a convenient way of me preventing a "Portuguese-Castilian" match in this generation, since alt-Joao I's eldest son is born in 1373, and until 1378 is the only surviving son of his parents, which means that in all likelihood, Portugal will be pulling for a slightly older candidate for a bride. Not want to wait a decade.
Maria's sort of awkwardly aged. Ladislao of Naples would be ideal, except I let him die in infancy and his sister marry the duc d'Anjou/Louis II of Naples. Is there anyone else she can marry?
A Tale of the Two Marie's
The two Marie's in question being the sister and daughter of Jean 'sans Peur', Duke of Burgundy:
Jean I, Duke of Burgundy [1404-1419] (1371-1419) m: 1385 Margarethe of Bavaria-Straubing (1365-1423)
Marie (1386-1422) m: 1402 Adolf, Count of Cleves (1373-1448)
[1] Minimum marriageable age being 13yo for a girl
[2] Her uncle, recently separated from Marie de Valois. It’s probably a stretch, but since Philippe only has daughters from his first marriage
[3] Philippe uses the excuse of OTL Louis XII (that he wasn’t old enough to consent to the marriage)
[4] This isn’t such a weird match. Wilhelm’s half-brother married the daughter of the duke of Cleves, and Wilhelm’s full-sister was engaged to the count of Berg (from 1397 until 1400) until the count married Yolande of Bar instead.
[5] I wasn’t sure if this was a match that had anything to do with Wilhelm being considered the potential successor to Emperor Sigismund or not (Wilhelm seems a relatively "unimportant player" otherwise IMO @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary
@VVD0D95 @isabella @Brita @material_boy @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @CaptainShadow @Victoria @RedKing
Jean I, Duke of Burgundy [1404-1419] (1371-1419) m: 1385 Margarethe of Bavaria-Straubing (1365-1423)
Marie (1393-1463) m: 1406[1] Henry V, King of England (1386-)
Mary (b.1408) m: 1422 Philippe III, Duke of Burgundy[2] (1396-)
Henry, Prince of Wales (b.1410) m: Castile?
Edward (b.1412)
Margaret (b.1413)
Philippa (b.1416)
Richard (b.1419)
Philippe III, Duke of Burgundy [1419-1467] (1396-1467) 1m: 1409 [ann.1419[3]] Marie de Valois (1393-1438); 2m: 1420 Mary of England (b.1408)
[1m.] Marguerite (1411-1467) m:
[1m.] Marie(1412-1458)
[1m.] Anne (1416-1451)
[1m.] Stillborn Son (1417)
[2m.] ?
Other issue
Marie (1386-1422) m: 1402 Adolf, Count of Cleves (1373-1448)
Maria (1404-1467) m: 1423 Wilhelm I, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel[4] (1392-1482)
Stillborn Child (1405)
Johann, Duke of Cleves [1448-1460] (1408-1460) m: ?
Stillborn Son (1409)
Adolf (1410-1456) m: ?
Margarethe (1411-1480) m: 1430 Arnold, Duke of Guelders (1410-1473)
Stillborn Son (1412)
Katharina (1414-1455) 1m: 1433 Wilhelm III, Duke of Bavaria-Münich[5] (1375-1435); 2m: 1441 Ulrich V, Count of Württemberg (1413-1480)
Elisabeth (1416-1425)
Agnes (1419-1447) m: 1434 Heinrich XXVI, Prince of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt (1418-1488)
[1] Minimum marriageable age being 13yo for a girl
[2] Her uncle, recently separated from Marie de Valois. It’s probably a stretch, but since Philippe only has daughters from his first marriage
[3] Philippe uses the excuse of OTL Louis XII (that he wasn’t old enough to consent to the marriage)
[4] This isn’t such a weird match. Wilhelm’s half-brother married the daughter of the duke of Cleves, and Wilhelm’s full-sister was engaged to the count of Berg (from 1397 until 1400) until the count married Yolande of Bar instead.
[5] I wasn’t sure if this was a match that had anything to do with Wilhelm being considered the potential successor to Emperor Sigismund or not (Wilhelm seems a relatively "unimportant player" otherwise IMO @Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary
@VVD0D95 @isabella @Brita @material_boy @Jan Olbracht @Carolus @CaptainShadow @Victoria @RedKing
Maybe an alt daughter of Henry III?
Francis I of Brittany?