Under wings of the Zilant: a Golden horde timeline

[Madhukar_Shah]

You can reject whatever you want but you clearly do not understand what is written and the historic background.

Right I'm sorry but I can't lie I don't care to have this discussion if you're going to use that tone.

I think we can just agree to disagree and as I highly doubt op is going to have the horde christianise, and you seem to think that's the sine qua non of a surviving horde, I would suggest with the greatest of respect that your opinion on this matter isn't particularly constructive on this thread. You're clearly very knowledgeable on Eastern European history in general, but I don't think this is the thread for you.

 

[alexmilman]

Right I'm sorry but I can't lie I don't care to have this discussion if you're going to use that tone.

I think we can just agree to disagree and as I highly doubt op is going to have the horde christianise, and you seem to think that's the sine qua non of a surviving horde, I would suggest with the greatest of respect that your opinion on this matter isn't particularly constructive on this thread. You're clearly very knowledgeable on Eastern European history in general, but I don't think this is the thread for you.

I don’t think that you are entitled to define what is and what is not for me, especially in a thread which you did not start, this is plain arrogance. But not reading your posts and not commenting on them is not a problem.

 

[alexmilman]

That's where he's heading and will almost succeed until...bump. He has already wiped out Orus khan's family ( Toqtaqiya still alive ). Right now he is exercising his position as the Orda beg of horde military

But it will be a start and Makmut will be getting the idea from a place just on the other side. For now he's creating a small branch of Special infantry numbering 200 with all sorts of melee weapons that would be his personal guard because Toktaymish is getting under his skin with the brash and unpredictable moves.

Something of the kind had been done in the Crimean Khanate where a small foot unit of the guards had been created. In practical terms it mattered little within a general military structure of the khanate because it strength was in the fast cavalry raids. More than once the Tatar raiding forces had been strengthened by the Janissary and artillery provided by the Ottomans but the results were far from uniform.

In the Tatar vs. Tatar confrontation the results could be “interesting” depending upon the numbers of infantry, its equipment and general circumstances but for a noticeable effect the numbers have to be bigger and the infantry had to have both reliable field defenses and the projectile weapons. One of the effective OTL methods of the successful fighting against Tatar cavalry during the early modern period was defense of the river crossings (usually when the infantry had firearms including artillery). Offensive infantry tactics became practical only in the second half of the XVIII.

 

[CalBear]

The younger brothers are getting their own domains and are vassals of their elder brother. The princes had been travelling to Sarai either to deliver the tribute, to get "yarlik" (authorization of their rule) or to intrigue against other princes. They were not members of Khan's court but the rulers of the semi-independent vassal states.


At that time most of the European kings and major rulers with the lesser titles had been regularly travelling across their domains to oversee things, collect tribute and simply give servants time to clean the main residence. This has nothing to do with what I was talking about so please stop your irrelevant parallels.

The Mughals were not the nomads but both the Khans of the GH and their direct subjects (Tatars) were. The life style of the GH and its rulers even after conversion to Islam was to a great degree following the Mongolian tradition and the laws of Genghis which were applicable exclusively to the "people who live in the yurts". Which means that the sedentary subjects (Russian principalities) had been excluded from the laws of the GH (and, not being Muslims, obviously from the Sharia law as well).
Anyway, the important point in that context is that there was never a direct Horde's rule over the Russian territory, especially after the "Baskak" system was abolished: the princes preserved a complete autonomy within their domains.


The only way for this to happen would be for the khan to convert into Orthodoxy and start playing the same role as the OTL rulers of Moscow. Without that Khan could not assert any greater rights besides those he already had: the rights to install the princes and to receive a tribute.

As an Orthodox supreme ruler he could crush independence of the subordinated princes and replacing their "administration" with one of his own. But for this program to succeed he needed support of the Church and general acknowledgement of his rights as a direct ruler of the land, not just an abstract feudal sovereign. Plus he would have to adopt his life style to what was considered fitting for a true member of the Russian Orthodox Church (False Dmitry lost his life to a great degree because he did not behave “appropriately”). Again, for a converted ruler certain allowances could be made in the area of a life style but for regime stability it would be better to go all the way ASAP. For example Tsar Simeon was accepted without a murmur: in that area the Russians had been more flexible than the Chinese who kept considering the Mongolian emperors as outsiders even when they fully adopted all things Chinese.




You can reject whatever you want but you clearly do not understand what is written and the historic background. The Orthodox Church was OK with the pagan and then Muslim leaders of the GH as long as they kept confirming the privileges granted by Genghis and as long as the Russian principalities had been weak. But when principality of Moscow grew in strength, its position started changing. If in the mid-XIII the Orthodox Church was threatening to punish those who prayed for the well-being of the GH ruler incenserely, in the mid-XIV Prince Dmitry "Donskoy" got a blessing of the most influential Russian churchman of that time, Sergius of Radonez for the war against Mamai (of course, Mamai was not a legitimate ruler of the GH but nonetheless). As I said, as soon as the Orthodox segment got stronger, it was not going to tolerate a submissive position toward what considered a generally hostile religion. Pretty much the same as what was happening during the Reconquista in Spain. The main difference from Spain was that the Russian state was ready to tolerate the Muslims on its territory as long as they were in a subordinated position to the Orthodox majority (the "service" Tatars had been quite useful in a field).

As for the general statement regarding the peaceful co-existence, well, there were examples of a tolerance from a domineering group (as in Ottoman Empire) but there was also Reconquista and many other examples which do not fit your statement. How many (successful) Muslim rulers of a predominantly Christian state did exist during the Middle Ages?




Leaving aside absolutely irrelevant India, the Ottomans and Persia, you ended up being reasonably close to the point. In a reality, situation for the GH had been made worse by the fact that the Christians had independent power of their own and could not be "included" into the Horde's power structure in any meaningful way without an active involvement of the ASBs (or something close to it).

For something of the kind to happen there should be a very serious POD at the time of Batu (who pretty much established the OTL system).


The fundamental problem with the above is that the Russian princes were not really interested in taking positions at Khan's court (even before the GH converted into Islam) because it would require for them to switch to the nomadic/semi-nomadic life style and to abandon their own possessions in Russia.


Happened in a somewhat convoluted way in OTL: the Great Prince of Moscow conquered the Horde's successor states on Volga and adopted a title which was previously used to address the Khan ("Tsar"). Pre-requisite for incorporation of the Russian resources was the ruler having the majority religion.

There were so many less demeaning and counterproductive ways you could have pharased parts of this response

"you can reject whatever you want but you clearly do not understand what is written and the historic background" is just flat out hostile. Worse, it takes what could be a chance to improve the discussion you are having and instead turns it into a dismissal.

If you have better information and/or understanding of the issues, write an extra sentence to expand on the issue rather than tell someone off.

 

[alexmilman]

There were so many less demeaning and counterproductive ways you could have pharased parts of this response

"you can reject whatever you want but you clearly do not understand what is written and the historic background" is just flat out hostile. Worse, it takes what could be a chance to improve the discussion you are having and instead turns it into a dismissal.

If you have better information and/or understanding of the issues, write an extra sentence to expand on the issue rather than tell someone off.

Point well made and taken. Will be more careful in the future.

But, as an explanation, it was triggered by a statement which was rejection of the historic facts (change of the attitudes between Russian Orthodox Church and Muslim Horde based upon the changing power balance). Actually, I did explain situation in some details before receiving that “rejection” answer so the opponent either could not or did not want to understand a point and answered with something that looked (to me) as being very close to the accusation of political/religious bigotry or intolerance.

Anyway, your advice is taken. Thanks.

 

[PrinceofApathy]

Subbed, this will be very interesting.

Will we by any chance see Islam making larger inroads into Europe proper. Maybe a larger population of Slavic Muslims?

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

Subbed, this will be very interesting.

Will we by any chance see Islam making larger inroads into Europe proper. Maybe a larger population of Slavic Muslims?

Depending on their policy and success the ottoman could probably convert a bigger part of their Slavic population to Islam .
I’m dubious at the capacity of the GH to convert some part of the already orthodox and Slavic region vassal to them but they can probably make or keep the territory directly under their control long term Muslim that already a large part of Europe unless you don’t consider it Europe proper .

 

[alexmilman]

Depending on their policy and success the ottoman could probably convert a bigger part of their Slavic population to Islam .
I’m dubious at the capacity of the GH to convert some part of the already orthodox and Slavic region vassal to them but they can probably make or keep the territory directly under their control long term Muslim that already a large part of Europe unless you don’t consider it Europe proper .

The GH, after conversion into Islam, remained predominantly Muslim (with the exception of some Siberian tribes, etc.). The Slavic part of its population is trickier because there were two distinct components:

1. The Slavs, mostly but not exclusively, the slaves (*) who lived in Sarai and other cities of the GH. This was addressed by having a Sarai diocese but eventually its seat moved to the Princedom of Moscow. AFAIK, a mass conversion into Islam was not happening because the Muslims should not be enslaved by another Muslims (not sure about that).

2. The Slavic subjects of the Russian princedoms. As you correctly noticed, they lived in the vassal states. which had been pretty much autonomous outside their defined obligations to the Khan. Which means that the Orhodox Church was a dominant spiritual power on these territories and it was not looking kindly to the conversions out of it even in much later periods. Then, of course, the GH did not have a structure on the Russian territories which would effectively support conversion into Islam and the local population had generally negative attitude to the people of a different faith even in the later times.

An additional problem for the GH in that area is that from the very beginning the Russian territories were left under the native control and the Mongolian administration in the region was practically absent. Not that such an administration ever had been numerous and sophisticated on a scale close to one in the conquered China. Even establishment of the “residential” Horde’s judges would face two fundamental problems:

1st, they would be infringing upon the rights of the local princes. If at the time immediately after conquest the Mongols possessed an overwhelming numeric advantage cooperation of the locals would not be as necessary as it was in OTL when Batu was left with few thousands of Mongols and had to build a brand new nation out of the subdued nomadic nations (and to deal with a rather volatile political environment in the empire). Even the minimal attempts to have the Mongolian representatives on the Russian territories caused revolts (as in Novgorod at the arrival of the census makers) which had to be crushed with the cooperation of the local princes. Attempt to enforce a permanent Tatar administration i. the XIV century would cause even greater problems all the way to a need of a re-conquest (risky and costly).

2nd, on the first stage (the Horde is predominantly pagan) the available Mongolian judges, specialists of Yasa, were useless because it was not applicable to the Russian territories (only to the “people who live in the yurts”) and after Islamization the Muslim judges would be useless as well: Sharia law did not apply to the no -Muslims. So the only suitable cadres were either princes and their appointees (who would fully depend upon them) or, in a religious area, the Orthodox clergymen. In other words, problem with the suitable cadres.

Speculations can be made about the POD allowing to resolve these problems but a direct control would had to happen immediately after the conquest (with a requirement for Batu having much more Mongolian forces in his disposal) and at the later times I don’t see a practical scenario except for the Horde’s conversion into Orthodoxy instead of Islam (Batu’s son was a Christian). Conversion of a Muslim Horde into Orthodoxy seems very unlikely.

Which makes a fundamental difference with the Ottomans who settled in Europe on the former Christian lands and exercised a direct administrative control. This created obvious incentives for conversion: a convert could count on a place in the Ottoman administration or some other privileges. Notice that this almost (or completely) was not happening in the Ottoman vassal territories which were not under their direct administration, like Transylvania, Ottoman Hungary, etc. Then, again, it is an open question if even in the case of the Ottomans the government was really interested in a complete conversion of its Christian subjects even in the directly controlled territories: IIRC, the Christians could be taxed more heavily and there was no problem with turning them into a “merchandise” (enslaving and selling).


______
(*) Not quite sure how slavery worked on the GH but in the Crimea a slave after certain number of years was routinely released to became a free peasant.

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

______
(*) Not quite sure how slavery worked on the GH but in the Crimea a slave after certain number of years was routinely released to became a free peasant.

Any reason for that ? I would have expected them to release slave if they converted to Islam which would have been a somewhat good factor to encourage conversion

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I would have expected them to release slave if they converted to Islam which would have been a somewhat good factor to encourage conversion

I don't think that's how slavery worked in general in islamic traditions, look at the mamluk dynasties of Egypt, the Persian Ghulams or the Turkic mamluks of early islamic India. They all converted to Islam and still remained formally slaves until the death of their master, when they were manumitted and allowed a share of the master's property

 

[Ursogulos]

Depending on their policy and success the ottoman could probably convert a bigger part of their Slavic population to Islam .

Hmm , that's an idea. Let's see, what I can do with ottomans, undoubtedly they'll be a big player as OTL if not more ( spoilers😃)

Which makes a fundamental difference with the Ottomans who settled in Europe on the former Christian lands and exercised a direct administrative control.

at the time immediately after conquest the Mongols possessed an overwhelming numeric advantage cooperation of the locals would not be as necessary as it was in OTL when Batu was left with few thousands of Mongols and had to build a brand new nation out of the subdued nomadic nations (and to deal with a rather volatile political environment in the empire).

Golden horde in my TL doesn't plan on doing it, that doesn't mean someone else won't 😉. People, forget the laws and policy of Genghis khan because there's a new lord in town, never has anyone been so deserving of the great Khan's mantle ......

Subbed, this will be very interesting.

Will we by any chance see Islam making larger inroads into Europe proper. Maybe a larger population of Slavic Muslims?

Thank you and hold your horses, we're still in the 14th century! But with Europe being bordered on south and the east by 2 muslim powers, there is doubt whether Islam will be tolerated inside Europe proper. Not until some Nazarenes are tolerant (or crazy)enough to consider heretics more dangerous than heathens 😇. But slavic muslims, I'll have to see

Lastly, my Toktaymish surprise is still in hands along wih a new route for Makmut. Stay tuned everyone.

 

[Ursogulos]

I don't think that's how slavery worked in general in islamic traditions, look at the mamluk dynasties of Egypt, the Persian Ghulams or the Turkic mamluks of early islamic India. They all converted to Islam and still remained formally slaves until the death of their master, when they were manumitted and allowed a share of the master's property

The only thing is, that you can't sell your slave after becoming a muslim but that doesn't mean he can't continue in your service

 

[alexmilman]

Any reason for that ? I would have expected them to release slave if they converted to Islam which would have been a somewhat good factor to encourage conversion

The peninsula territory was routinely short of the agricultural workers and a free man renting a land was more productive than a slave. There could be some other reasons of which I’m not aware. AFAIK, conversion was not required and, anyway, there were noticeably non-Muslim minorities of the Greeks and Krymchaks.

 

[Ursogulos]

Image: Moscow during the reign of Dmitry Donskoi

Dhul Qadh 773 ( May, 1372)
Moscow, grand duchy of Muscovy

"My Prince, the Tatars are not ceasing their attacks upon the countryside. Our forces exhausted from the battle are not enough to contain them. Either Khan of Crimea is leading a revolt against the Great Khan in Sarai or that bloody, spawn of a devil Toktaymish has more tricks up his sleeve." spoke an anxious boyar."

Dmitry was swamped with all problems after the battle of Kablukovo. It seemed that throwing off the Tatar yoke was easier but living with it was not. Despite their hard earned victory, the Tatars were not gone and it seemed that Muscovites were used as a pawn by Orda Beg Toktaymish to settle a civil war of the Golden horde. And to add to all of that, Lithuanian Grand duke Algirdas was also upset at his brother in law Mikhail's death at the hands of Muscovy. Tver's claimants in the golden horde were mostly eliminated but now seeing the crisis, Lithuanians want to take a bite out of the vulnerable Rus.

"I'm calling a meeting of Boyars tomorrow. There seems to be more than one problem and we have no military solution. Oh, where have we descended from the glory of Svyatoslav!"

"My Prince, pardon me. If it is not to your dismay. I have a solution." a bishop spoke in a soft spoken voice but his word were clear.

"Yes, go on wise man of the Church. May lord bless us with your good intentions." Dmitry replied.

"It seems Novgorod is the problem here, if you say step down as the prince of Novgorod and instill someone lower under your tutelage on that problematic throne, you can at least save Muscovy. We unfortunately can't turn the Lithuanians against Tatars now because we were the ones to have killed Mikhail of Tver and captured his son Ivan. It was a trap for us and we have let the Tatars best us." the bishop trembled as he spoke, his lips shaking from the fear and anticipation of attracting the wrath of his Prince.

"Hm, at least we can stop Lithuanians and Tatars from turning on us. Maybe it is for the best. But by God, I shall not be the last Grand prince to hold both Muscovy and Novgorod. We won in the battle but we have been cheated by the cunning Toktaymish. Vladmir, please send envoy to the Lithuanians and say that we are open for any kind of negotiation." Dmitry now turned to a boyar just beside the throne.

"Um, there's a problem with that my Prince, words got out that Kipchak Khan(Crimean Tatars) is leading an army himself to besiege Moscow. " he replied sheepishly

Dmitry sighed but clenched his fists. The Tatars were getting on his nerves. If they want to play rough the Rus will play as well.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************

The Lithuanian ultimatum seeking Muscovite surrender of Tver and Novgorod came as a shock for the elated Muscovites who were in undisputed possession of both Tver and Novgorod after their victory over an allied army of Tver and Tatars. To add to the Muscovite problems, Crimean Tatars resumed their looting and burning of Rus countryside. The exhausted Muscovites hastily prepared for a defense of their capital which was 'besieged'. But the real Tatar goal and Toktaymish's intentions were still in a fit of clouds. The Tatars only surrounded Moscow for a short of a month and soon left after only 25 days, looting and taking slaves as they headed south. Dmitry tried to bring the Tatars in a place of his choice for battle but the wily nomads avoided any pitched confrontation.

image : A Tatar attempt to scale the walls of Moscow

Finally on Muharram 774 (July 1372), the three parties decided to sit in Tver for negotiations. Muscovy wanted to keep Novgorod and add Tver to their growing duchy. Lithuania wanted to annex Tver on the right of Algirdas being relative of slain Mikhail II of Tver. Golden horde wanted to maintain the status quo and to ensure that neither Lithuanians nor Muscovy became to powerful. These conflicting interests often created a lot of false promises and backroom dealings, not to mention some unlikely alliances. A peculiar example of the understanding between Toktaymish and Algirdas. On Jumadiul Awal 774, the 'Treaty of Tver' was declared.

According to the treaty there will be some throne and allegiance changing.

1. Ivan Mikhailovitch gets to rule Tver as a subordinate of Dmitry of Muscovy.

2. Grand Duchy of Muscovy retract all their claims on Novgorod republic unless occupied by a foreign power.

3. Vytautas, nephew of Algirdas will be the new prince of Novgorod and will convert to Orthodoxy.

4. Novgorod will be a seperate principality whose independence is granted by Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Golden Horde. The tribute of Novgorod will be directly transferred to Sarai without Muscovy acting as the middleman. Despite any obligations part of the earning will go to Muscovy for 5 years as war reperations.

5. Vytautas and any blood members of Algirdas have more right to Novgorod and can place a member on the throne of Tver if there is no male heir of Ivan.

Thus, the meddling of Lithuanians created a new balance of power in eastern Europe. But many later historians argue about the 'free hands' policy of Toktaymish which allowed the humbling of Muscovy. Muscovites felt that they were cheated in the negotiation table. The fact of a newly Christianized Orthodox Lithuanian dynasty as the ruler of a rich principality like Novgorod created headaches. And Muscovites were not the only ones unhappy at the procedure. The Khan Makmut, under influence of words from Toqtaqiya lambasted Toktaymish for 'handing over Novgorod to Lithuanians'. Though he was sated in the subsequent year when the revenue increased a bit. In short, Toktaymish had a secret deal with Vytautas over sharing the riches of Novgorod. The promised tributes to Muscovy never arrived and Toktaymish was keeping the Khan satisfied with the shadowy arrangements by using tributes to endorse the new city , Kazan. This also warmed up Toqtaqiya to him. In truth, most of the tribute was embezzled by the Orda beg. But Toktaymish's grand plan was now ready for execution....

(piece of From the Vikings to Tsars: Early Russian History by Vasiley Simkus)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surprise! Bet no one was expecting that huh? Oh well, we have young Vytautas as prince of Novgorod here whose conversion to Othodoxy will create big ripples in the history of Poland , Lithuania and baltics. The horde will soon face an external threat but it will not be so simple.

 

[Hawabin]

You forgot the threadmarks for your chapters

 

[Yuhaoyang]

I notice that “Simkus” is in fact，a Lithuanian surname. I guess that means ittl，GDL united Russia in the end，and Lithuanians became the Russian version of Manchu conquerors。

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

I notice that “Simkus” is in fact，a Lithuanian surname. I guess that means ittl，GDL united Russia in the end，and Lithuanians became the Russian version of Manchu conquerors。

Isn’t a Lithuanian lead and united Russia bound to Russificate ? Kinda hoping the Russians principality doesn’t completely all fall to the Lithuanian and some of them remain independent to keep the two still somewhat separate , even if Lithuania is bound to do better in the TL .
the complete Russification of GDL Will probably depend if the Lithuanian convert to orthodoxy which seem likely right now

 

[alexmilman]

View attachment 646062
Image: Moscow during the reign of Dmitry Donskoi

Dhul Qadh 773 ( May, 1372)
Moscow, grand duchy of Muscovy

"My Tsar, the Tatars are not ceasing their attacks upon the countryside. Our forces exhausted from the battle are not enough to contain them. Either Khan of Crimea is leading a revolt against the Great Khan in Sarai or that bloody, spawn of a devil Toktaymish has more tricks up his sleeve." spoke an anxious boyar."

Dmitry was swamped with all problems after the battle of Kablukovo. It seemed that throwing off the Tatar yoke was easier but living with it was not. Despite their hard earned victory, the Tatars were not gone and it seemed that Muscovites were used as a pawn by Orda Beg Toktaymish to settle a civil war of the Golden horde. And to add to all of that, Lithuanian Grand duke Algirdas was also upset at his brother in law Mikhail's death at the hands of Muscovy. Tver's claimants in the golden horde were mostly eliminated but now seeing the crisis, Lithuanians want to take a bite out of the vulnerable Rus.

"I'm calling a meeting of Boyars tomorrow. There seems to be more than one problem and we have no military solution. Oh, where have we descended from the glory of Svyatoslav!"

"My Tsar, pardon me. If it is not to your dismay. I have a solution." a bishop spoke in a soft spoken voice but his word were clear.

"Yes, go on wise man of the Church. May lord bless us with your good intentions." Dmitry replied.

"It seems Novgorod is the problem here, if you say step down as the prince of Novgorod and instill someone lower under your tutelage on that problematic throne, you can at least save Muscovy. We unfortunately can't turn the Lithuanians against Tatars now because we were the ones to have killed Mikhail of Tver and captured his son Ivan. It was a trap for us and we have let the Tatars best us." the bishop trembled as he spoke, his lips shaking from the fear and anticipation of attracting the wrath of his Tsar.

"Hm, at least we can stop Lithuanians and Tatars from turning on us. Maybe it is for the best. But by God, I shall not be the last Grand prince to hold both Muscovy and Novgorod. We won in the battle but we have been cheated by the cunning Toktaymish. Vladmir, please send envoy to the Lithuanians and say that we are open for any kind of negotiation." Dmitry now turned to a boyar just beside the throne.

"Um, there's a problem with that my Tsar, words got out that Kipchak Khan(Crimean Tatars) is leading an army himself to besiege Moscow. " he replied sheepishly

Dmitry sighed but clenched his fists. The Tatars were getting on his nerves. If they want to play rough the Rus will play as well.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************

The Lithuanian ultimatum seeking Muscovite surrender of Tver and Novgorod came as a shock for the elated Muscovites who were in undisputed possession of both Tver and Novgorod after their victory over an allied army of Tver and Tatars. To add to the Muscovite problems, Crimean Tatars resumed their looting and burning of Rus countryside. The exhausted Muscovites hastily prepared for a defense of their capital which was 'besieged'. But the real Tatar goal and Toktaymish's intentions were still in a fit of clouds. The Tatars only surrounded Moscow for a short of a month and soon left after only 25 days, looting and taking slaves as they headed south. Dmitry tried to bring the Tatars in a place of his choice for battle but the wily nomads avoided any pitched confrontation.
View attachment 646071
image : A Tatar attempt to scale the walls of Moscow

Finally on Muharram 774 (July 1372), the three parties decided to sit in Tver for negotiations. Muscovy wanted to keep Novgorod and add Tver to their growing duchy. Lithuania wanted to annex Tver on the right of Algirdas being relative of slain Mikhail II of Tver. Golden horde wanted to maintain the status quo and to ensure that neither Lithuanians nor Muscovy became to powerful. These conflicting interests often created a lot of false promises and backroom dealings, not to mention some unlikely alliances. A peculiar example of the understanding between Toktaymish and Algirdas. On Jumadiul Awal 774, the 'Treaty of Tver' was declared.

According to the treaty there will be some throne and allegiance changing.

1. Ivan Mikhailovitch gets to rule Tver as a subordinate of Dmitry of Muscovy.

2. Grand Duchy of Muscovy retract all their claims on Novgorod republic unless occupied by a foreign power.

3. Vytautas, nephew of Algirdas will be the new prince of Novgorod and will convert to Orthodoxy.

4. Novgorod will be a seperate principality whose independence is granted by Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Golden Horde. The tribute of Novgorod will be directly transferred to Sarai without Muscovy acting as the middleman. Despite any obligations part of the earning will go to Muscovy for 5 years as war repercussions.

5. Vytautas and any blood members of Algirdas have more right to Novgorod and can place a member on the throne of Tver if there is no male heir of Ivan.

Thus, the meddling of Lithuanians created a new balance of power in eastern Europe. But many later historians argue about the 'free hands' policy of Toktaymish which allowed the humbling of Muscovy. Muscovites felt that they were cheated in the negotiation table. The fact of a newly Christianized Orthodox Lithuanian dynasty as the ruler of a rich principality like Novgorod created headches. And Muscovites were not the only ones unhappy at the procedure. The Khan Makmut, under influence of words from Toqtaqiya lambasted Toktaymish for 'handing over Novgorod to Lithuanians'. Though he was sated in the subsequent year when the revenue increased a bit. In short, Toktaymish had a secret deal with Vytautas over sharing the riches of Novgorod. The promised tributes to Muscovy never arrived and Toktaymish was keeping the Khan satisfied with the shadowy arrangements by using tributes to reform the new city , Kazan. This also warmed up Toqtaqiya to him. In truth, most of the tribute was embezzled by the Orda beg. But Toktaymish's grand plan was now ready for execution....

(piece of From the Vikings to Tsars: Early Russian History by Vasiley Simkus)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surprise! Bet no one was expecting that huh? Oh well, we have young Vytautas as prince of Novgorod here whose conversion to Othodoxy will create big ripples in the history of Poland , Lithuania and baltics. The horde will soon face an external threat but it will not be so simple.

Actually, surprise did not happen (😜) because there was more than one Lithuanian prince of Novgorod (at least Лугвений (Семён) Ольгердович and Михаил Олелькович ) but what you are seemingly missing is that this position had a very limited power: a prince did not live in the city of Novgorod and could not interfere in its governing. He was just a military leader at the time of war and if and when the city was displeased, its representatives simply was telling a prince to leave. In the case of a need he could be invited again (Alexander Yaroslavovich was invited 4 times and kicked out the same number of times). The OTL Witold’s position as “protector” of Novgorod was more meaningful because it reflected acknowledgement of him as the greatest regional power.

Moscow at that time could not “give away” Novgorod because the Republic was a completely independent state. Neither did anybody have more or less rights to it: the princes of Novgorodian Republic had been elected by a popular vote, thus was not a life time position and there were no dynasties.

BTW, title “tsar” at that time was reserved for the Khan of the Great Horde and could not apply to a Prince of Moscow and Moscow at Dmitry’s time had a stone wall (which Totkhamish failed to breach) so the picture illustrates the realist period or a different place.

Witold in OTL presumably was Orthodox after he was a pagan and before he became a Catholic (as a Great Prince of Lithuania). The “ripple” would happen only if as a Great Duke of Lithuania he reneged on the condutions of Union of Krewo and made Orthodoxy an official religion of the Duchy (not too realistic).

 

[alexmilman]

Isn’t a Lithuanian lead and united Russia bound to Russificate ? Kinda hoping the Russians principality doesn’t completely all fall to the Lithuanian and some of them remain independent to keep the two still somewhat separate , even if Lithuania is bound to do better in the TL .
the complete Russification of GDL Will probably depend if the Lithuanian convert to orthodoxy which seem likely right now

In OTL prior to the Union of Krewo there was (AFAIK) a considerable degree of (Belo)Russification: at least Cyrillic alphabet was used in the official communications and there were numerous Orthodox members of nobility on all levels. The separation line was not fixed in stone: Lithuanian nobles often had been going to serve the Russian princes (and probably other way around), there were numerous inter marriages and a border was rather “dynamic”: the border princedoms had been regularly changing their affiliation. Anyway, a big part of what could be considered “Russia” was a part of the Grand Duchy. If Witold’s schema was successful instead of being crushed at Worskla he had a serious chance to became an official overlord of the Russian princedoms (Totkhamish would become his vassal and transfer that right to him) with a further integration into the Russo-Lithuanian state (Great Princd of Moscow was his grandson).

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I think the maximum Lithuanisation you could get at the moment is when the grand duchy finally commits to orthodoxy, they insist on having a Lithuanian language Bible for the Baltic ex-pagans, and then at some point that liturgical tradition is extended over the entire duchy- maybe when the dukes assert ecclesiastical independence from the metropolitan of Kiev.